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  1. #1
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    The witness of its ruins

    .



    To this present day the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem bears witness as a sign to the fulfillment of the prophecy spoken by Jesus 2,000 years ago on the Mt of Olives, and recorded within the pages of the Bible. These ruins are the only physical, tangible evidence of the once magnificent structure that Jesus stood beside when He spoke to His disciples of the coming destruction that would raze this grand Temple to the ground, thus manifesting His power as the Son of God.

    Through the centuries these ruins have been the sole witness that proclaims the veracity of Christ’s claim to being the Son of God, declaring to the world that the words He spoke did in fact come to pass. Whether you are a Futurist or a Preterist, the one thing we all know is that Jesus predicted to His generation that the mighty stones of the Temple that He called His Fathers house were going to come down, and those very words He spoke to His generation CAME TO PASS IN AD 70.


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 01-21-2010 at 09:49 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
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    Question to Futurists...???

    .
    I have a question I would like to ask those of you who hold to the Futurist, Historicist, or Idealist understanding of "end times" prophecy (I already know the Preterist understanding ).

    What, in your opinions was the significance of the prophecy of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse concerning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem....and its extra-Biblical fulfillment in AD 70?

    Thanks in advance for your answers...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
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    Rose,
    You asked;

    "What, in your opinions was the significance of the prophecy of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse concerning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem....and its extra-Biblical fulfillment in AD 70?"
    ---------------------------------------------------
    The fulfillment of Jesus' end-times prophecies began to come into being in the first century. This is confirmed by the use of the word "ginomai" when He described the events that are commonly called "the Olivet Discourse".

    By the use of the word, ginomai", I see it as a lengthly series of events which began at that time, not completed at that time.........which if completion was the issue a different word other than ginomai would have been used.......teleoo, or, pleroo, or an associated word commonly linked with fulfillment.

    The destruction of the Temple signified the inauguration of a new ministry by Jesus, as a priest after the order of Melchezedek, which He is currently fulfilling having begun them when He ascended into heaven.

    While the first (tabernacle) remained standing, there could not be two simultaneous ministries by priests as Jesus ministers in the heavenly tabernacle not made with hands.

    I do not see the destruction of the temple as a judgment to end the nation of Israel as He, Jesus, had asked for their forgiveness on the Cross.

    They (Israel) became enemies of the gospel having been blinded of God (for our sakes so that we could be delivered the gospel).....but.....they remain "beloved for the father's sakes". They (Israel) will remain "enemies" until the blindness is removed.....at which point....."all Israel shall be saved".

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Rose,
    You asked;

    "What, in your opinions was the significance of the prophecy of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse concerning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem....and its extra-Biblical fulfillment in AD 70?"
    ---------------------------------------------------
    The fulfillment of Jesus' end-times prophecies began to come into being in the first century. This is confirmed by the use of the word "ginomai" when He described the events that are commonly called "the Olivet Discourse".

    By the use of the word, ginomai", I see it as a lengthly series of events which began at that time, not completed at that time.........which if completion was the issue a different word other than ginomai would have been used.......teleoo, or, pleroo, or an associated word commonly linked with fulfillment.

    The destruction of the Temple signified the inauguration of a new ministry by Jesus, as a priest after the order of Melchezedek, which He is currently fulfilling having begun them when He ascended into heaven.

    While the first (tabernacle) remained standing, there could not be two simultaneous ministries by priests as Jesus ministers in the heavenly tabernacle not made with hands.

    I do not see the destruction of the temple as a judgment to end the nation of Israel as He, Jesus, had asked for their forgiveness on the Cross.

    They (Israel) became enemies of the gospel having been blinded of God (for our sakes so that we could be delivered the gospel).....but.....they remain "beloved for the father's sakes". They (Israel) will remain "enemies" until the blindness is removed.....at which point....."all Israel shall be saved".

    Joel
    for your response Joel,

    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the destruction of the Temple signified the inauguration of Jesus as our High Priest, and not that of judgment...as the earthly Temple of God (whose veil was rent by Christ) could not continue to stand being part of the Old religious system.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    for your response Joel,

    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the destruction of the Temple signified the inauguration of Jesus as our High Priest, and not that of judgment...as the earthly Temple of God (whose veil was rent by Christ) could not continue to stand being part of the Old religious system.

    Rose
    That is fair summary, Yes, Rose.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  6. #6
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    Silence

    .
    Does it not seem odd that for the last 2000 years there has been only prophetic S I L E N C E, not a peep has been uttered (I'm not talking about all the false prophets)! If the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation speak of things yet future why has there been no voice from heaven? There is no Biblical president for this S I L E N C E.....

    If we take the birth of Jesus (1st century) as the central pivotal point of history and look back from that point 2000 years we find continual interaction with God and His chosen people (the whole of the OT and the NT); then we look forward from the time of Jerusalem's destruction to present...N O T H I N G.....does this not tell us something?

    Why would God give a prophecy about something so far in the future and remain silent? As I said: this has never happened in all of Biblical history, so why now?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #7
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    To answer your question Rose,

    It was believed that Jesus did not leave us as He is with us till the end of age. What He was doing was to leave us for 2,000 years+ to our human development folly without God. Such human development without God would only lead to disasters... global warming, wars, famines, diseases, crimes etc. Only then will human see his folly in a world without God and turned to Him. See the following parables and "He who have ears, let him hears":

    Matthew 21:33"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.

    38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

    40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"

    41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."

    .................................................. ...............................

    Matthew 24:45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    .................................................. ................................

    14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
    19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

    21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

    22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

    23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

    24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

    26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

    28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

    .................................................. ..............................

    Matthew 13:4Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
    27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

    28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
    "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

    29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

    .................................................. ...............................

    Luke 19:12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
    14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

    15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

    16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

    17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

    18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

    19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

    20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

    22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

    24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

    25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

    26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."


    What are the parables trying to tell us? about a man going away on a long journey and coming back to get something in returns? Who was this man?.....

    Many Blessings.

  8. #8
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    The Better Witness

    There are two ways a person can view the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem. The first way is that they bear witness of the fulfillment of Christ's prophetic words of the Temples destruction, hence they are confirmatory evidence of His authority....or, secondly they are a sign of a yet to be fulfillment of His prophecies, so we are left wondering if and when they will come to pass.

    Which one would be the Better Witness?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    In the event

    Faithfully are the wounds of a friend,but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. If I by any chance cause offence , hurt or distress by writing this , it is not intentional. Rose said that the silence was unprecedented. It was not. There was silence from the last prophet for a period of about Five hundred years to the messiah. As regards the destruction of the temple : That was fulfilled in 70 A.D. That is an observable fact. The restoration of the state of Israel is a fact. It is easy enough to be wise after the event. What is a bit harder is to foresee that which is to come or is likely to occur in the future. I will now make a prediction based on my own understanding. Israel will be fully restored within the next ten years That is , the ethnic Jews will be in total occupation of the whole of the region which we now call Palestine. The dome on the rock will be flattened ( to the dismay of all Islam) in preparation for the building of a new Jewish temple. All activities in the new temple will be irrelevant. The ark of the covenant will be recovered. I do not expect to live long enough to see these events ,but those who do, just might recall that I predicted them . God wrote the ten commandments on 'tablets of stone'. There is a remote possibility that the fragments will be found. I believe that I could predict their whereabouts to within an area of half a square mile. Surely anybody with a little bit of knowledge could do the same. If they are ever found then I predict that they will be in the form of dendritic quartz. The dendritic material being wolfram. Rose asked the question ' which would be the better witness?'. They are all of equal value. The destruction of the temple, the scattering of the 'holy people' and the restoration of ethnic Israel were all predicted. The last one is being fulfilled. In answer to cheow who asked '

    What are the parables trying to tell us? about a man going away on a long journey and coming back to get something in returns? Who was this man?.....

    My dear friend and Brother in Christ I say : I am not telling you something which you do not know all ready. The parables indicate that we should be found doing that which is right at all times so that when the master appears we are in an acceptable state to accompany him . Whether he sends his angel of death or comes in person Whether we die predictably or unexpectedly . We are ready to meet him without blushing with shame .
    The parable of the ten virgins carried the same concept . That is : that we should always be doing that which is good ,right and proper.
    Alec

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by alec cotton View Post
    Faithfully are the wounds of a friend,but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. If I by any chance cause offence , hurt or distress by writing this , it is not intentional. Rose said that the silence was unprecedented. It was not. There was silence from the last prophet for a period of about Five hundred years to the messiah. As regards the destruction of the temple : That was fulfilled in 70 A.D. That is an observable fact. The restoration of the state of Israel is a fact. It is easy enough to be wise after the event. What is a bit harder is to foresee that which is to come or is likely to occur in the future. I will now make a prediction based on my own understanding. Israel will be fully restored within the next ten years That is , the ethnic Jews will be in total occupation of the whole of the region which we now call Palestine. The dome on the rock will be flattened ( to the dismay of all Islam) in preparation for the building of a new Jewish temple. All activities in the new temple will be irrelevant. The ark of the covenant will be recovered. I do not expect to live long enough to see these events ,but those who do, just might recall that I predicted them . God wrote the ten commandments on 'tablets of stone'. There is a remote possibility that the fragments will be found. I believe that I could predict their whereabouts to within an area of half a square mile. Surely anybody with a little bit of knowledge could do the same. If they are ever found then I predict that they will be in the form of dendritic quartz. The dendritic material being wolfram. Rose asked the question ' which would be the better witness?'. They are all of equal value. The destruction of the temple, the scattering of the 'holy people' and the restoration of ethnic Israel were all predicted. The last one is being fulfilled. In answer to cheow who asked '

    What are the parables trying to tell us? about a man going away on a long journey and coming back to get something in returns? Who was this man?.....

    My dear friend and Brother in Christ I say : I am not telling you something which you do not know all ready. The parables indicate that we should be found doing that which is right at all times so that when the master appears we are in an acceptable state to accompany him . Whether he sends his angel of death or comes in person Whether we die predictably or unexpectedly . We are ready to meet him without blushing with shame .
    The parable of the ten virgins carried the same concept . That is : that we should always be doing that which is good ,right and proper.
    Alec
    No offense taken my friend Alec...

    The point I was making is that is seems to me the greatest witness to the world is to see that which was fulfilled! Otherwise, it is merely a guessing game as to which generation shall see Christ's return, for any prediction is not based on the series of specific meaningful events which was laid out for us in the Olivet Discourse by Jesus.

    Jesus came at a prophesied time with a New Covenant, to a specific people under an Old Covenant, to draw out from them a remnant who would carry the Good News to the world. Those who refused to accept that New Covenant of Grace perished under the Old Covenant....the Old Covenant system no longer exists, so its ruins only stand as a witness to its existence. It does not need to be rebuilt again....it served its purpose and that was to usher in the Messiah - He is here now! Hallelujah!


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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