The Keys of the Kingdom

[Richard Amiel McGough]

hi Richard

yes you are right the reason why i wen there is ;in Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
so we can see that the creation here is prior to universe.

and so is Jn1;1


this said so Christ (the Word) was first of all creation,and was of God,


i see this just like God created man and then out of man he took the women,
but even doe the women comes out of men she is one separated person a total single individual.

and so it is with God and Christ and all of creation,

God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination


of cause Christ will be our god just as Moses was god to is brother Aaron wen they went to Egypt,

Just like Moses ,Christ his our middle man so to speak.

Hi Pierre,

Sorry for the slow response.

What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote "be on are" for "beyond our" in this sentence "God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination"

I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.

Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas - like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our "god" like Moses was a "god" to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.

For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.

This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

What glory did Christ have with the Father "before the world was" if he did not exist?

On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:

John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

The word "just as" (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty - a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.

This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.

Richard

[Rose]

Hi Pierre,

Sorry for the slow response.

What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote "be on are" for "beyond our" in this sentence "God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination"

I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.

Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas - like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our "god" like Moses was a "god" to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.

For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.

This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

What glory did Christ have with the Father "before the world was" if he did not exist?

On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:

John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

The word "just as" (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty - a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.

This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.

Richard

In reading the text carefully, one does get the idea that what started with the Glory Christ had with the Father before the world was, expands to be given by Christ to all who believe making them one. So in that sense the Glory that was with the Trinity, is now the Trinity plus all believers.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17: 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Rose