The NIV Challenge

[Richard Amiel McGough]

One of the dangers of Lexicons and dictionaries is that IF they define a word by their own personal interpretation of it's biblical usage or the consensus interpretation of it's biblical usage, it then becomes an acceptable definition of the word. Its a cyclical error which becomes embedded in future lexicons. Joe and I had touched on this a little a few months back.(or was it you). Thus can we really trust lexicons and dictionaries in every instance and circumstances if they are compiled by fallible, subjective men?.

Excellent points. I agree completely. Here is my favorite example of a lexicon infected with an idiosyncratic and arbitrary theology:

Strong's 3952 parousia {par-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning: 1) presence 2) the coming, arrival, advent 2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

Who knew that the lexicon of secular Koine Greek would be so densely packed with literalistic futurist Christian theology???

Yes indeed, we can all be sure that the word "parousia" had that specific meaning in the common language of first century Greeks! Nice "lexicon," eh?

There would seem to be no reason to add "full number" as a 'special interpretation' other than to support the interpretation of it's use in this verse.

You may be correct, but there could be other aspects of the context that suggest the idea of "full number." I need to look more closely at it.

My personal belief is that this interpretation is the 'only' interpretation that fits with the very context of the chapter and with the surrounding chapters especially since Paul includes (and almost focuses on the 'jealousy factor' that would be used to call some of the remaining elect within the end generation of national Israel.

The summary verses of 28-32 and it's emphasis of NOW, (in 60 AD and referring to after the filling of God has been coming into the nations. Of course this principle can and does continue even though 'national Israel' of the mosaic covenant and genealogical seed has ended. But the dispensational teaching that 'all "national" Israel will be saved' is a great hinderence.

Agreed. Especially in light of the reference to "their pleroma" (speaking of the pleroma of divine blessings Israel had from God) mentioned in just a few verses earlier in Romans 11:12.

Question. When were sins removed from 'Israel"

At the same time the "sins" were removed from the world. Christ the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world at the cross.

Question 2. What do you think/feel/believe would be a better meaning for this context; especially in view of the doctirnal precedents Paul set forth in the Previous chapters of Romans AND how he has defined "all Israel" to mean those of the covenant of Mercy, Grace, Election... including those of the nations recieving Mercy.

I don't think there is a better translation than the divine fulness of Christ flooding the nations as it had Israel. I think more study on this particular point will be fruitful so I can get a more precise articulation.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Richard

[Rose]

Excellent points. I agree completely. Here is my favorite example of a lexicon infected with an idiosyncratic and arbitrary theology:

Strong's 3952 parousia {par-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning: 1) presence 2) the coming, arrival, advent 2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

Who knew that the lexicon of secular Koine Greek would be so densely packed with literalistic futurist Christian theology???

Yes indeed, we can all be sure that the word "parousia" had that specific meaning in the common language of first century Greeks! Nice "lexicon," eh?

Here's another one for you....

Strong's 2015:
επιφανεια epiphaneia {ep-if-an'-i-ah} from 2016; TDNT - 9:7,1244; n f AV - appearing 5, brightness 1; 6 1) an appearing, appearance Often used of the glorious manifestation of the gods, and esp. of their advent to help; in the NT the advent of Christ, -- not only that which has already taken place and by which his presence and power appear in the saving light he has shed upon mankind, but also that illustrious return from heaven to earth to occur in the future.

We need to start a collection of all the Strong's definitions that have a clear futuristic bias to their definitions...

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Excellent points. I agree completely. Here is my favorite example of a lexicon infected with an idiosyncratic and arbitrary theology:

Strong's 3952 parousia {par-oo-see'-ah}
Meaning: 1) presence 2) the coming, arrival, advent 2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

Who knew that the lexicon of secular Koine Greek would be so densely packed with literalistic futurist Christian theology???

Richard

EXACTLY.what I was referring to. Several lexicons add biblical interpretations to words. "full number is just one and parousia is another.

Romans 9-11 could be a good study to disect in the Biblical studies forum.

Did you know that the phrase "all Israel" shall be saved was said to be a phrase spoken by the Rabbi's at some times (not sure of circumstances) and then afterward they would begin speaking exclusions to which that 'salvation' applied. Paul may have been phrasing the words in association with being a 'Rabbi' of the new covenant. In addition we know that the church was under severe persecution, so any openly overt statements against judaism would have increased the pressure.

I think I added the question 'What does the word "so" mean in vs 26 after you replied. But the word "so" is not the greek word for 'then' or "afterward". It is the Greek word for "in this manner".

And yes, your right also. "Jacob" representing unconverted human life) sins were removed judicially at the same time everyone else in the world's were: at the cross. It is by faith and acceptance that that forgiveness is received unto becoming 'sons of God'. (John 1:12-13).

Again; "all Israel" is summed up in vs those of the covenant of MERCY 'even us from among the nations". The earlier verses in chapter 9 align perfectly as Paul representing the laws of soteriology and the laws of the covenant of Mercy that were figuratively stated thought the lives and experiences of Abraham, Isaac,, Jacob/Israel as stated in Ps 105: 8-10.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

EXACTLY.what I was referring to. Several lexicons add biblical interpretations to words. "full number is just one and parousia is another.

Rose started a thread devoted to this topic. It's just plain hilarious (when we forget the tragic effects it has had on understanding Scripture). Here's the link:

Strong futuristic bias in Strong's definitions

Romans 9-11 could be a good study to disect in the Biblical studies forum.

Did you know that the phrase "all Israel" shall be saved was said to be a phrase spoken by the Rabbi's at some times (not sure of circumstances) and then afterward they would begin speaking exclusions to which that 'salvation' applied. Paul may have been phrasing the words in association with being a 'Rabbi' of the new covenant. In addition we know that the church was under severe persecution, so any openly overt statements against judaism would have increased the pressure.

Yes - it would be excellent to do a full, detailed, and careful study of Rom 9-11. I'll think I'll start a thread (if you don't beat me to it, ).

I have read somewhere about the Rabbinic exclusions of "all Israel" but I will have to search for it again. But really, it's about the most OBVIOUS thing in the world since the rabbinic writings are filled with references to who will and will not have a "place in the world to come" (Olam HaBa).

I doubt there is anybody worth disputing who would suggest that "all Israel" means "each and every blood descendant of Jacob who has ever lived."

As for Paul's meaning of "all Israel" - I think he defined it. It appears exactly twice in his writings. Once at the beginning of Rom 9-11, and once in the end (this is not an accident):

• Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
• Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I believe that phrase has the same meaning in both passages. The fact that "all Israel" will be saved says nothing about every person that is "of Israel."

QED

I think I added the question 'What does the word "so" mean in vs 26 after you replied. But the word "so" is not the greek word for 'then' or "afterward". It is the Greek word for "in this manner".

Exactly correct! It's strange how few folks understand such basic things.

And yes, your right also. "Jacob" representing unconverted human life) sins were removed judicially at the same time everyone else in the world's were: at the cross. It is by faith and acceptance that that forgiveness is received unto becoming 'sons of God'. (John 1:12-13).

Again; "all Israel" is summed up in vs those of the covenant of MERCY 'even us from among the nations". The earlier verses in chapter 9 align perfectly as Paul representing the laws of soteriology and the laws of the covenant of Mercy that were figuratively stated thought the lives and experiences of Abraham, Isaac,, Jacob/Israel as stated in Ps 105: 8-10.

I agree with the ideas you present, but I never use the phrase "covenant of mercy." It seems to me to be a theological invention. I never would have come up with it by just reading the Bible, so it doesn't have any meaning to me.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard