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  1. #1
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    IS CHRIST COMING AGAIN? OR HAS HE?

    I've been reading more writings of the early fathers, and I came accross an astounding document from St. Athanasius. I remember quoting this before, but I never actually read it thoroughly.

    Take a look my fellow Preterist's. You will love this.

    ST ATHANASIUS

    (40) So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His time, saying, "A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself."5656Gen. xlix. 10 And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming "The law and the prophets prophesied until John."5757Matt. xi. 13 So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny Christ Who has brought it all about? Again, they see the heathen forsaking idols and setting their hopes through Christ on the God of Israel; why do they yet deny Christ Who after the flesh was born of the root of Jesse and reigns henceforward? Of course, if the heathen were worshipping some other god, and not confessing the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses, then they would do well to argue that God had not come. But if the heathen are honoring the same God Who gave the law to Moses and the promises to Abraham—the God Whose word too the Jews dishonored, why do they not recognize or rather why do they deliberately refuse to see that the Lord of Whom the Scriptures prophesied has shone forth to the world and appeared to it in a bodily form? Scripture declares it repeatedly. "The Lord God has appeared to us,"5858Psalm cxviii. 27 and again, "He sent forth His Word and healed them."5959Psalm cvii. 20 And again, "It was no ambassador, no angel who saved us, but the Lord Himself."6060Isaiah lxiii. 9 The Jews are afflicted like some demented person who sees the earth lit up by the sun, but denies the sun that lights it up! What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Surely, then, it must be plain even to the most shameless that the Christ has come, and that He has enlightened all men everywhere, and given them the true and divine teaching about His Father.

    Thus the Jews may be refuted by these and other arguments from the Divine teaching.
    There is so much to talk about in this writing. But did you notice the statement he makes, "Death....is already destroyed"

    Come on my brothers! Sound off!

    Anyone who thinks that Preterist's are a new breed are sadly mistaken. Now I've yet to determine if St. Athanasius is a FP or PP, but either way, he speaks the truth.

    Hope you enjoy this articly.

    HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a HAPPY NEW CHRISTIAN YEAR

    .....from one new moon to the next....

    Joe

  2. #2
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    The Lord has come!

    Merry Christmas!!




  3. #3
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    Yes, The Lord has come!

    And He WILL come again!

    Merry Christmas!!
    Last edited by CWH; 12-24-2009 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #4
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    Old news...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I've been reading more writings of the early fathers, and I came accross an astounding document from St. Athanasius. I remember quoting this before, but I never actually read it thoroughly.

    Take a look my fellow Preterist's. You will love this.

    There is so much to talk about in this writing. But did you notice the statement he makes, "Death....is already destroyed"

    Come on my brothers! Sound off!

    Anyone who thinks that Preterist's are a new breed are sadly mistaken. Now I've yet to determine if St. Athanasius is a FP or PP, but either way, he speaks the truth.

    Hope you enjoy this articly.

    HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a HAPPY NEW CHRISTIAN YEAR

    .....from one new moon to the next....

    Joe
    .
    2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Unfortunately, most believe the "death" that Christ had abolished [PAST TENSE] through the Gospel is physical death - despite the fact that everyone still dies physically.

  5. #5
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    2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Unfortunately, most believe the "death" that Christ had abolished [PAST TENSE] through the Gospel is physical death - despite the fact that everyone still dies physically.
    Good quote brother TruthSeeker. I think you've found the perfect connection with Christ destroying death. Unfortunately, as you correctly pointed out, Christians in the past, as well as today, seem to focus on Physical death, and not spiritual death. They have not (do not) realize that Christ has renewed us, both inwardly and outwardly. Even though our physical bodies will eventually die, our spirits are being renewed each and every day. And as Paul states, "He who gave life to you shall also give life to our mortal (physical) bodies, through His Spirit who dwells within you...."

    Is it the Holy Spirit that gives life unto all men, both spiritually, and physically, so that death no longer has dominion over us, but eternal life.

    Such wonderful truths that some have a difficult time embracing.

    Hope all had a wonderful Christmas.

    God bless.

    Joe

  6. #6
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    Let's rehash this discussion. I think it's important for our Futurist's friends and brothers in Christ to gain a better understanding of the timing of Revelation. This is key because the timing of Revelation couldn't have come at a better time. So without delay, let us begin.

    John writes:

    Revelation 1:

    9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”


    YOUR BROTHER IN TRIBULATION

    John is writing a letter addressed to seven Churches at a time when hope was being lost, persecutions were at an all time high, and an Apostle Himself was being sentenced to a prison located on an Island called "Patmos". Why was John being in-prisoned? Because, as he states, "of the word of God, and of the testimony [he holds] of Jesus...." This simply means that John was being persecuted because he represented a major threat to the spreading of Christianity. The Roman Empire was threatened severely from financial loss as the temple market profits began to decline. Emperor Trajan writes in a letter to Pliny the Younger explaining that the enormous expense the Roman government was enduring in hunting out Christians and placing them on trial was becoming a huge economical burden. Although Trajan's rule was after that of St. John, it shows that not many years after St. John, Rome began feeling the effects of economical loss due to the spread of Christianity. As a result of this growing threat, we have St. John as a "Fellow Brother and companion in this Tribulation...." This could only mean that the Christians abiding in ancient Asia Minor (now modern day Turkey) were undergoing some of the most horrific Tribulation they had ever experienced. Nero Caesar was a Tyrant who sought to rid the Empire of this growing threat to the Roman Empire. Christians were losing hope, most of the Apostles were killed, and Christ chose John to send a message of encouragement to Christians who longed and prayed for Jesus to send help. The response? The Book of Revelation.

    MESSAGE TO THE CHURCHES

    It's important to note that John specifically wrote to seven Churches in Asia Minor. It was they who were suffering intense persecution from both Romans and Apostate Jews. Knowing the fact that they were the original recipients of this magnificent book of visions, what relevance does it hold to them compared to races some 2000 years into the future? Let's put it like that. If you're hanging from a rope on a tall cliff, and the rope is ready to break, how much sense would it make to call for help, only to have someone say to you, "Don't worry! Help will come soon!" Only to find that help was not literally soon, but down the road? It'd make no sense right? Well then, I must ask my fellow brothers in Christ how, and why they feel that Christ was telling them (the seven churches), "I'm coming soon...." if His coming would not happen within their life time? Was He tricking them? Or giving them a sense of false hope?

    It's very important for my Futurist's opponents to acknowledge a little common sense here. They were begging, praying, and hoping for help and relief from death and persecution that seemed to hit them on a daily basis, especially in Ephesus. Jesus sent them a letter of encouragement, not only to explain the reasons why they were suffering, but how their tormentors would eventually be killed, even though they themselves (the saints) would be killed. The goal of Christ was to let them know that they were being refined into pure gold, and that their faithfulness would lead to an eternal award in heaven. Thus, since the message was sent to them, it must therefore be "meant" for them.

    What about us? How does Revelation relate to us? Much in every way. The generation of Noah's time had much relevance to the early church, and even today. Each generation serves as an example for others, be it reward or punishment. Certain circumstances existed with the seven churches that had to be addressed. Those same circumstances could apply to us as a lesson, be it to follow, or to repent.

    Lastly, did you notice how John describes the voice of Christ as a Trumpet? That's something I wanted you all to take note of because it could either mean nothing, or have much significance in our understanding of the seven trumpets. Historically speaking, trumpets are blown when a city is being invaded. Revelation speaks of seven trumpets, hence, this must mean seven invasions. The questions remains, "attacks on who?" We know the answer is Babylon, the Great City. We preterist know and understand Babylon to be Apostate Israel, as even Josephus acknowledges in his own writing.

    In conclusion, Revelation was written by John who was a fellow partaker in the Tribulation of the Saints. Jesus sent a message to all seven Churches to deal with specific issues with each Church (if any), and to explain to them the reasons they were suffering, and finally that He, although not literally seen with the eye, was in fact reigning among them, and unveiling His over-all plot to destroy both Beat and Harlot. Thus, He instructs them, "HOLD ON TO WHAT YOU HAVE UNTIL I COME....."

    Trust me my fellow Futurist's. They held on to what little they had left, and Jesus came as He promised them....unless you want to believe He tricked them. I wouldn't if I were you.

    Believe my friends....believe.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 02-01-2010 at 04:40 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #7
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    Let's not get history mixed up. Preterist claimed that the end of age came in AD 70, tribulation came in AD 70.

    Joe said:
    Although Trajan's rule was after that of St. John, it shows that not many years after St. John, Rome began feeling the effects of economical loss due to the spread of Christianity. As a result of this growing threat, we have St. John as a "Fellow Brother and companion in this Tribulation...." This could only mean that the Christians abiding in ancient Asia Minor (now modern day Turkey) were undergoing some of the most horrific Tribulation they had ever experienced. Nero Caesar was a Tyrant who sought to rid the Empire of this growing threat to the Roman Empire. Christians were losing hope, most of the Apostles were killed, and Christ chose John to send a message of encouragement to Christians who longed and prayed for Jesus to send help. The response? The Book of Revelation.
    Emperor Trajan ruled from AD 98 to AD 117 and Emperor Nero died in AD 68. This means that Emperor Nero died before the tribulation in AD 70 came and Emperor Trajan came much later after the tribulation in AD 70 was over. Yet the Book of Revelation according to the preterists seem to account the events of persecution of Christians by Emperor Nero (the AC), the destruction of Jerusalem in Ad 70 and the persecution of the churches in Asia Minor in AD 70s. If that is the case, then the book of Revelation must have been written between AD 68 and AD 117. History did not account any tribulation of the churches in Asia Minor in AD 70's. In fact Apostle John was thought to have died in Ephesus AD 100's. Further more why would the tribulation happened only to the churches of Asia Minor when there were also many churches in other parts of the Roman Empire?

    However, I do agree that the letters to the 7 churches of Asia Minor are a reflection of what the churches would face throughout the ages to come... false prophets, lukewarm Christians, backsliders etc. There is much to learn from the letters to the 7 churches in modern times.

    Trust me my fellow Preterist's. Jesus will come again... I wouldn't believe God want to trick us but rather HE WANT TO TEST OUR FAITH IN WAITING FOR HIM....

    Believe my friends....believe.

    Many Blessings.

  8. #8
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    Emperor Trajan ruled from AD 98 to AD 117 and Emperor Nero died in AD 68. This means that Emperor Nero died before the tribulation in AD 70 came and Emperor Trajan came much later after the tribulation in AD 70 was over. Yet the Book of Revelation according to the preterists seem to account the events of persecution of Christians by Emperor Nero (the AC), the destruction of Jerusalem in Ad 70 and the persecution of the churches in Asia Minor in AD 70s. If that is the case, then the book of Revelation must have been written between AD 68 and AD 117. History did not account any tribulation of the churches in Asia Minor in AD 70's. In fact Apostle John was thought to have died in Ephesus AD 100's. Further more why would the tribulation happened only to the churches of Asia Minor when there were also many churches in other parts of the Roman Empire?
    The book of Revelation, in my opinion, was probably written sometime in 66 to 68 AD. Nero’s persecution was severe and causing some to lose their faith. Even John, according to two early church fathers of the 2nd century, claimed that John had been banished by Nero Caesar. So because they were suffering intensely, and some were falling away from the faith, Jesus appeared to John to deliver an important message to the seven Churches of Asia.

    History did not account for any Tribulation during the 70’s? I’m not quite sure I’d believe that brother Cheow. For one, they suffered even during the days of the Apostles as far back as the late 30's AD. Look how many times Paul exhorted them to remain faithful despite certain members causing trouble. Look at Peter’s address to the 12 Tribes who were scattered among these nations, more than likely involving some (or all) of the seven Churches. And let’s not forget about John’s letter addressing the many Anti-Christs that were visible during his day.

    My point brother Cheow is that persecution of the Saints began as early as few days, months, or even weeks after Pentecost, on through to the time frame of St. Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles. Peter exhorts his readers to remain faithful despite the fairy trials they were suffering. John in Revelation states (via Christ Jesus) that some within the Churches remained faithful, and did not deny His Name.

    History more than records the Church all throughout Rome suffering. Nero Caesar was the first to persecute Christians in the Gentile world. Yet the persecution actually began in Israel by false Jews. And there you have it; both Harlot and Beast performing the same function…fighting against the Church.

    Now if you’d really like to make things more interesting, perhaps you’d like to provide proof that Christians in Asia Minor suffered during the time of Emperor Domitian, being the time-frame that Iranaeus claims John may have seen the vision. You won’t find any as I’ve found very little information about major church persecution during Domitian’s reign. We know he caused trouble with the Church, but Trajan more than Domitian.

    As for why only Asia Minor? I'd say that's not important. If one Church had those who committed adultery, should Christ then be compelled to have John write a letter to every single Church addressing the same problem? No, he chose those who needed rebuking, and/or commending, and they served as examples to the rest. Now one might also be compelled to ask why John didn't include the Churches in Israel. That was simple. They weren't there to receive the letter, obviously because of the war and the Christians were all fled.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #9
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    Then that would mean that Revelation was written post AD 70 if not John would not be able to describe the destruction of Jerusalem and the aftermath. I am very particular of the dates of the reigns of the emperors of Rome as I find many mixups with the dates during our transactions and the dates will prove if Revelation was written before or post AD 70. I don't expect names of emperor of post AD 68 such as Trajan, Domitian, Vespasian, Titus to be mentioned if Revelation was written in AD 67 or AD 68. Furthermore,Christians were persecuted throughout the centuries from the first century till today.

    Order of the Early Roman Emperors;

    Emperors Augustus to Trajan 30 B.C. - A.D. 100

    Augustus (27 B.C. - 14 A.D.)

    Tiberius (14-37)

    Caligula (37-41)

    Claudius (41-54)

    Nero (54-68)

    Galba (68-69)
    Otho (69)
    Vitellius (69)
    Vespasian (69-79)

    Titus (79-81)

    Domitian (81-96)

    Nerva (96-980)

    Trajan (98-117)


    Many Blesssings.
    Last edited by CWH; 02-02-2010 at 06:36 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Then that would mean that Revelation was written post AD 70 if not John would not be able to describe the destruction of Jerusalem and the aftermath.
    John knew what was going to happen because God told him. Remember, Revelation was a prophecy. There is no reason to think that it was written after the events that it predicted.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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