Torah Letter Count

[Richard Amiel McGough]

my verses Aishdas verses diff my letters Aishdas letters diff my words Aishdas words diff
Gen 1533 1534? -1? 78162 78064 98 20635 20512 123
Ex 1213 1209? 4? 63604 63529 75 16728 16723 5
Lev 859 858? 1? 44817 44790 27 11956 11950 6
Num 1288 1288? 0 63588 63530 58 16422 16368 54
Deut 959 955? 4? 55056 54892 164 14324 14294 30

Total 5852 5844? 8? 305227 304805 422 80065 79847 218

I got the number of verses from the aishdas.org website but I think they have one verse in error as some websites give the number of verses in
the Torah as 5845 and others as 5888.

It would be great if you posted links to any pages where you find the numbers.

I know there is a problem with even the number of verses, because I count 5853 in my database.

I need to find electronic copies of the other versions before I can do any analysis of the difference.

I've included the final letters also and the 21st letter has two forms but I think they count it as the same letter.
I don't know which Hebrew Bilble the aishdas.org is using but it seems that the BHS that you used comes closer than mine.
I found a BHS webisite(Blyblos.com) and I'm going to copy and paste that version and see if I get any letter counts closer to yours.
I'm glad this website is here, but I don't know why a website has not already been developed that would have this data on it for anyone
who may want this information.
I always thought that the Hebrew Bible was the Hebrew Bible and they were all the same as supposedly the scribes who copied it made sure that was the case.

Yes, the 21st letter Shin/Sin is counted as one because the only difference is a diacritical mark. The letter itself is unchanged.

I have a paper copy of the Hebrew Bible that has a lot of differences from the BHS. It was published by the Trinitarian Bible Society, but it doesn't say what ms it is based on.

The myth of the invariant "Hebrew Bible" is very persistent ... and false.

Oh yeah,
Scriptures4all.com used the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) as their source but it seems that it is way off in the count from both yours and
aishdas.org's results.
I don't know why there would be such a large error with the 18th letter(tsaddi) but it does have a final form that they may not count all the time(who knows).

I'm using the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) from cripture4all.com
scripture4all.com

nine Final letter my total my diff their number your number your diff
1 27074 27074 17 27057 27060 3
2 16361 16361 17 16344 16345 1
3 2111 2111 2 2109 2109 0
4 7039 7039 7 7032 7032 0
5 28090 28090 38 28052 28055 3
6 30607 30607 98 30509 30533 24
7 2199 2199 1 2198 2198 0
8 7195 7195 8 7187 7189 2
9 1806 1806 4 1802 1804 2
10 31612 31612 90 31522 31556 34
11 8615 3358 11973 13 11960 11968 8
12 21588 21588 18 21570 21570 0
13 14481 10625 25106 28 25078 25090 12
14 9893 4259 14152 45 14107 14128 21
15 1837 1837 4 1833 1836 3
16 11273 11273 29 11244 11250 6
17 3977 830 4807 2 4805 4806 1
18 2938 1035 3973 -79 4052 3962 -90
19 4702 4702 8 4694 4695 1
20 18151 18151 42 18109 18125 16

21 3420
21 12186
15606 14 15592 15595 3
22 17965 17965 16 17949 17950 1

TOTAL 305227 422 304805 304856 51
tommy58103

[/quote]
I went to scripture4all.com and found an advertizing site with no content. Did you give the right url?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi again,

Sorry......the url should be scripture4all.org
I downloaded the text from each chapter and put it all in one document.
and then I counted the letters from there and I made a chart of my results.

I sent you a copy at richard@biblewheel.com but keep getting a failure notice when I send.

I tried to copy my chart into this webpage but it won't work.
I think you have to have some kind of permission to do that are have a special type of program which I don't have.
I didn't know it was that hard to import a excel document into a website forum until now.

I'm still working on BHS version and will see if I get the same results as you did.It will probaly take me at least a month to finish as I have to copy and paste each chapter.

I was going to try to look for patterns in the text of the Torah but it would be nice to have version that would be without error before I put alot of work into the search.


tommy58103

P.S.
I goofed up by replying more than once since I didn't see it posted right away
Is there anyway to edit previous posts to delete duplicates?

tommy58103
Too many psots get confusing to anybody who reads this webpage.

Hi tommy,

Could you PM me with the message you get when you try to send me an email? I need to find out why your email is being blocked.

You can attach your Excel file to a post. Just click the "Manage Attachments" button below the edit box.

Thanks for the corrected link.

I deleted the duplicate post.

How did you get the Hebrew text from that site. Everything I see for download is compiled for the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer software.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there Tommy,

Here are the tables I copied and and pasted from your attached file. I don't know why it didn't work for you.

Letters
	WLC				Aishdas.org	BHS 4th Ed
	my number	Final letter	my total	my diff	their number	your number	your diff
א	27074		27074	17	27057	27060	3
ב	16361		16361	17	16344	16345	1
ג	2111		2111	2	2109	2109	0
ד	7039		7039	7	7032	7032	0
ה	28090		28090	38	28052	28055	3
ו	30607		30607	98	30509	30533	24
ז	2199		2199	1	2198	2198	0
ח	7195		7195	8	7187	7189	2
ט	1806		1806	4	1802	1804	2
י	31612		31612	90	31522	31556	34
כ	8615	3358	11973	13	11960	11968	8
ל	21588		21588	18	21570	21570	0
מ	14481	10625	25106	28	25078	25090	12
נ	9893	4259	14152	45	14107	14128	21
ס	1837		1837	4	1833	1836	3
ע	11273		11273	29	11244	11250	6
פ	3977	830	4807	2	4805	4806	1
צ	2938	1035	3973	-79	4052	3962	-90
ק	4702		4702	8	4694	4695	1
ר	18151		18151	42	18109	18125	16
ש Sin	3420
ש Shin	12186
ש Sin+ש Shin			15606	14	15592?	15595	3
ת	17965		17965	16	17949	17950	1
Total			305227	422	304805	304856	51

	my verses	Aishdas verses	diff	my letters	Aishdas letters	diff	my words	Aishdas words	diff
Gen	1533	1534?	-1?	78162	78064	98	20635	20512	123
Ex	1213	1209?	4?	63604	63529	75	16728	16723	5
Lev	859	858?	1?	44817	44790	27	11956	11950	6
Num	1288	1288?	0?	63588	63530	58	16422	16368	54
Deut	959	955?	4?	55056	54892	164	14324	14294	30
Total	5852	5844?	8?	305227	304805	422	80065	79847	218

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for telling me how to use manage edit in webpage....I didn't see that at the bottom of the page.

I gave you the wrong url.
I am using that website also but it gives the Hebrew Bible in pdf form and not the full text. I have made a copy of the Bible I downloaded from olivetree.com in transliterated form after copying and pasting each chapter from that website and then counted the letters from that.
but I don't know what version of Hebrew Bible they are using.

The website I used for my Hebrew Bible was:

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Attached is the new charts with added corrections.

Thank-you.

tommy58103

Hey there Tommy,

Here are the new charts. Have you tried again to copy and paste them? It works fine for me in Firefox. What browser are you using?

					Aishdas.org	BHS 4th Ed
Letters	my number	Final letter	my total	my diff	their number	your number	your diff
א	27074		27074	17	27057	27060	3
ב	16361		16361	17	16344	16345	1
ג	2111		2111	2	2109	2109	0
ד	7039		7039	7	7032	7032	0
ה	28090		28090	38	28052	28055	3
ו	30607		30607	98	30509	30533	24
ז	2199		2199	1	2198	2198	0
ח	7195		7195	8	7187	7189	2
ט	1806		1806	4	1802	1804	2
י	31612		31612	90	31522	31556	34
כ	8615	3358	11973	13	11960	11968	8
ל	21588		21588	18	21570	21570	0
מ	14481	10625	25106	28	25078	25090	12
נ	9893	4259	14152	45	14107	14128	21
ס	1837		1837	4	1833	1836	3
ע	11273		11273	29	11244	11250	6
פ	3977	830	4807	2	4805	4806	1
צ	2938	1035	3973	-79	4052	3962	-90
ק	4702		4702	8	4694	4695	1
ר	18151		18151	42	18109	18125	16
ש Sin	3420
ש Shin	12186
ש Sin+ש Shin			15606	14	15592?	15595	3
ת	17965		17965	16	17949	17950	1
Total			305227	422	304805	304856	51

I am most curious about the Tzaddi. I can't imagine how there could be a difference of -90. It doesn't make any sense at all unless someone failed to count the final form. Your count of 2938 + 1035 = 3973 is pretty close to my count of 3962 (BHS). A difference of eleven still seems pretty big, but it's nothing like 90.

The other differences in yod and vav makes more sense since those letters are sometimes used as vowels.

	my verses	Aishdas verses	diff	my letters	Aishdas letters	diff	my words	Aishdas words	diff
Gen	1533	1534?	-1?	78162	78064	98	20635	20512	123
Ex	1213	1209?	4?	63604	63529	75	16728	16723	5
Lev	859	858?	1?	44817	44790	27	11956	11950	6
Num	1288	1288?	0?	63588	63530	58	16422	16368	54
Deut	959	955?	4?	55056	54892	164	14324	14294	30
Total	5852	5844?	8?	305227	304805	422	80065	79847	218

We need one more column. The diff between your diff and my diff.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi again,

I've added a new column to show our differences and delted verses counts that aisdas.org listed for verses that I think are in error and doublechecked the numbers in the charts so there is not any errors and I think its right this time.

If you want you can delete all the other charts so as to make this blog less cluttered.


I tried to copy and paste but no good. I don't know what I'm doing wrong....could you tell me kinda by step by step tutorial and see if I can get it right then.

P.S. I've been gooffing around with Psalm 119 for the past month and I think I've found something interesting that is embedded in the text but don't know for sure. It could only be coincidence like your mind playing tricks when it sees animals in the clouds.

I don't know what Hebrew Bible that olivetree.com is using as it just say Old Testament Bible on their website.

I'm gong to download the BHS Hebrew Bible and work on that and see if I come up with the same results that you did. I think that the version used by olivetree.com may be the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) but am not sure.

I've deleted some of my posts since alot of them were repeats and would just add more confusion than necessary.

This should be the last postings of these two charts until i get my other results figured out maybe in a month.

tommy58103

Hi Tommy,

I simply click the little + sign at the top of the table in Word to select the whole table, then press <control>-c to copy to the clipboard. Then I click on the post editor to give it focus and press <control>-v and TADA! The table is copied into the post. Then I click a cell in the table to give it focus, and then click the table properties button (second from the left on the bottom of the tools menu) to set the borders.

What have you found in Psalm 119? I studied it extensively when writing the Bible Wheel book because the alphabetic verses contain the KeyWords that link to the content on the 22 spokes. I would be very interested in anything you think you may have found.

I'm will be doing my best to collect all the different versions of the OT that I can find so we can do a proper analysis.

Here are the latest tables:

Letters	mine	mine	mine	my diff	theirs	yours	your diff	our diff
	olivetree.com total	olivetree.com final letter	olivetree.com +final letter	olivetree.com / aishdas.org diff	Aishdas.org total	BHS 4th Ed total	BHS/ aisdas.org diff	olivetree.com/BHS diff
א	27074		27074	17	27057	27060	3	14
ב	16361		16361	17	16344	16345	1	16
ג	2111		2111	2	2109	2109	0	2
ד	7039		7039	7	7032	7032	0	7
ה	28090		28090	38	28052	28055	3	35
ו	30607		30607	98	30509	30533	24	74
ז	2199		2199	1	2198	2198	0	1
ח	7195		7195	8	7187	7189	2	6
ט	1806		1806	4	1802	1804	2	2
י	31612		31612	90	31522	31556	34	56
כ	8615	3358	11973	13	11960	11968	8	5
ל	21588		21588	18	21570	21570	0	18
מ	14481	10625	25106	28	25078	25090	12	16
נ	9893	4259	14152	45	14107	14128	21	24
ס	1837		1837	4	1833	1836	3	1
ע	11273		11273	29	11244	11250	6	23
פ	3977	830	4807	2	4805	4806	1	1
צ	2938	1035	3973	-79	4052	3962	-90	11
ק	4702		4702	8	4694	4695	1	7
ר	18151		18151	42	18109	18125	16	26
ש Sin	3420
ש Shin	12186
ש Sin+ש Shin			15606	14	15592	15595	3	11
ת	17965		17965	16	17949	17950	1	15
Total	285120	20107	305227	422	304805	304856	51	371

	olivetree.com verses	olivetree.com letters	Aishdas.org letters	olivetree.com letter diff	olivetree.com words	Aishdas.org words	olivetree.com word diff
Gen	1533	78162	78064	98	20635	20512	123
Ex	1213	63604	63529	75	16728	16723	5
Lev	859	44817	44790	27	11956	11950	6
Num	1288	63588	63530	58	16422	16368	54
Deut	959	55056	54892	164	14324	14294	30
Total	5852	305227	304805	422	80065	79847	218

[tommy58103]

Hello everybody,

I've finished my study of the 2 versions of the Hebrew Bible that are available on the internet.(The BHS and the WLC). Are they the only versions available?I got the BHS from the byblos.com website and the WLC from the olivetree.com website.After studying them and calculating their letters and numbers I find the they are both essentially the same--With just a few additions here and there along with some human error that occurred during typing.I can make that information available if anyone would like...Now as to the version used by the aishdas.org website I do not know but would like to see a copy of the Torah that they are using.Does anyone know how to access such a copy?

tommy58103@yahoo.com

[tommy58103]

Hi everybody,
I've finished comparing the WLC and The BHS versions of the Torah in the Hebrew Bible and and come to the conclusion that they agree almost perfectly except in a very few places which I can list on this site shortly.
The version that Aishdas.org uses does not match and I'm still searching for their version of the Torah on the internet but have not had nay luck as of yet.
How many versions of the Hebrew Bible are there?
I know of the BHS and the Leningrad Codex but as to the Samaritan version that maybe aisdas.org uses I do not know of.
Does anybody have any information about any other versions so I can get the most accurage count of the exact number of letters and words used in the Torh.?

tommy58103@yahoo.com

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Tommy,

Sorry for the delay. Your comments got caught in the moderation queue because you are a new member. From now on your posts should show up instantly when you submit them.

I'll respond more as time permits.

All the best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello everybody,

I've finished my study of the 2 versions of the Hebrew Bible that are available on the internet.(The BHS and the WLC). Are they the only versions available?I got the BHS from the byblos.com website and the WLC from the olivetree.com website.After studying them and calculating their letters and numbers I find the they are both essentially the same--With just a few additions here and there along with some human error that occurred during typing.I can make that information available if anyone would like...Now as to the version used by the aishdas.org website I do not know but would like to see a copy of the Torah that they are using.Does anyone know how to access such a copy?

tommy58103@yahoo.com

Hey there Tommy,

Yep - they seem to be the same version. But I know there is at least one other very different version out there since I've seen word and letter counts that are very different than the BHS/WLC.

If you find the other version, please let us know.

All the best,

Richard

[tommy58103]

I have come to the conclusion that the WLC and the BHS are essentially the same with very few differences.
My counts for the letters were the same as yours except for 3 letters:

1. final nun:I get 2 less as there are 2 nuns at occur after two verses in Numbers. There are two letters after the ending of a verse instead of one.

2. samek:I get 3 less as there are 3 sameks in three verses in the Book of Deuteronomy.

3. final pe:I get one less letters as there is a final pe letter in Genesis 35:22.

My count is 6 letters less then your total count for the BHS Torah version.I used the BHS version from the Biblos.com website.

I've attached a list of the corrections that I have found.


Thank-you.


tommy58103













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