As it was in the days of Noah

**CWH** · 10-05-2009, 09:35 AM

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

"As it was in the days of Noah" seems to suggest a world-wide event when the whole world was engulfed in a great Flood, so will be at the coming of the Son of Man when it will be a world event in which everyone in the world will experience it. People will be eating, marrying and enjoying themselves, oblivious until the Son of Man come to sweep them away.

Therefore, the coming of the Son of Man is not an event that happened only in Israel or the Middle East but it will be experience throughout the world, as it was in the days of Noah when the Great Flood engulfed the whole world. But no one knows when that day will come except the Father in heaven.

Many Blessings.

**Rose** · 10-05-2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

"As it was in the days of Noah" seems to suggest a world-wide event when the whole world was engulfed in a great Flood, so will be at the coming of the Son of Man when it will be a world event in which everyone in the world will experience it. People will be eating, marrying and enjoying themselves, oblivious until the Son of Man come to sweep them away.

Therefore, the coming of the Son of Man is not an event that happened only in Israel or the Middle East but it will be experience throughout the world, as it was in the days of Noah when the Great Flood engulfed the whole world. But no one knows when that day will come except the Father in heaven.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

Good topic...

It evokes lots of food for thought...

My approach is to first focus on what Jesus meant by "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.". To my understanding Jesus is telling His disciples that in the same manner that the people of the world in Noah's day were busy about their daily lives, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

The people of Noah's day were totally unaware that the catasrophic event of the flood, that was the judgment of God, was about to wipe them all away. The same idea applies to what Jesus is saying will happen when He comes in judgment on the world. That coming will coincide with a catastrophic event (complete and utter destruction of Jerusalem) that will wipe those people away who are busy eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, and not watching for His coming.

I don't see the text as saying the catastrophic event must cover the globe, only that the same "manner" of judgment upon mans wickedness will occur. And besides that, God said He would never wipe out all of mankind again like He did with the flood.

Gen. 9:11-13 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Notice when God says, "there shall never be a flood again to destroy the earth"; the sense in which "earth" is used is not the physical earth which we know was not destroyed, but the "earth" in reference to creatures living on the earth.

Thanks again for bringing up the subject....

Rose

**joel** · 10-05-2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

"As it was in the days of Noah" seems to suggest a world-wide event when the whole world was engulfed in a great Flood, so will be at the coming of the Son of Man when it will be a world event in which everyone in the world will experience it. People will be eating, marrying and enjoying themselves, oblivious until the Son of Man come to sweep them away.

Therefore, the coming of the Son of Man is not an event that happened only in Israel or the Middle East but it will be experience throughout the world, as it was in the days of Noah when the Great Flood engulfed the whole world. But no one knows when that day will come except the Father in heaven.

Many Blessings.

Thanks, Cheow Wee Hock.......very timely that you should bring this up.

Don't have time to discuss it now, but will return........please look at Hebrews 11:7.....to add to the discussion.

Joel

**TheForgiven** · 10-05-2009, 02:23 PM

We do not know if the entire earth was completely covered in water. Theologists suggest that only that region of the world was covered in water, and not necessarily the entire globe. Of course, this doesn't matter. The focus of Noah's flood wasn't the main-idea of Christ's warning. It was the suddenness, and the unexpected judgment that would catch them by surprise.

Besides, the world wasn't destroyed then, so why would we expect it to be destroyed later? Only the inhabitants were destroyed; not the earth. Yet the Futurist/Dispensation teaching insists that the entire globe will melt from the heat, even though it was never destroyed in the flood. They've gone so far as to include even the stars, and the planetary masses of the universe. So is God going to wipe out every single thing in the entire universe because of the faults of a single globe?

Nope! And there's no scripture to even accidentally suggest that.

I hate to say this, but this kind of teaching is just pure fiction designed for the silver screen.

But thanks for bringing this up because the discussion of the fictional destruction of the earth must be debated. Because the pictures below will never happen.

Let's get it on.

Joe

**CWH** · 10-05-2009, 03:05 PM

Hi,

I am fully aware that the world will not be destroyed by a flood again and I am fully aware that the earth will abide forever, it will not be vaporised and gone forever....don't put me in that category of extreme Futurist or shall I say Full Futurist

. When I say "the end of the world" or when I say "the earth is destroyed", I meant the end of creation followed by a regeneration of the whole earth.

Thanks Joe, there are archeological evidences that the earth was once covered by a great flood. There were even legends in Mesopotamia (story of Gilgamesh) and other ancient regions (Greek and Chinese as well) of a Great Flood quite similar to that described in the BIble:

http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood5.html

Thanks Rose, yes, the earth will not be "destroyed" by a great flood but it doesn't mean it will not be "destroyed" through other means such as fire.

Thanks, Joel, I would also like to put in a few other passages for discussions related to the topic, "As in the days of Noah":

Isaiah 54:9 
"To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.

1 Peter 3:20 
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 

Hebrews 11:7*
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Note* 1 Peter 3:20 is quite similar in context with Hebrews 11:7.

Food for thought: Does those days of Noah sounds like the present day in which people are happily feasting, marrying oblivious to what is happening and coming to this world?....earthquakes in Indonesia, floods in Philippines etc.

Many Blessings to all.

**joel** · 10-05-2009, 03:06 PM

Matthew 24:36-38 (Young's Literal Translation)

36`And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers of the heavens -- except my Father only;

37and as the days of Noah -- so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;

38for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark,
-----------------------------------------------------------

The day, and the hour of the day being discussed.........no one hath known.....not even the angels.......only the Father.

No one........

The presence of the Son of man (huios anthropos) will occur during a period of time that can be compared to the days of Noah.

Normal things were occurring, and continued until Noah (and his family) entered the ark.

The time in which the events of the ark of Noah was of such importance and uniqueness that it is directly related to, and compared to by Jesus as of similar magnitude to that of the coming of the Son of man, a title which Jesus often spoke of concerning Himself.

Joel

**EndtimesDeut32/70AD** · 10-05-2009, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

"As it was in the days of Noah" seems to suggest a world-wide event when the whole world was engulfed in a great Flood, so will be at the coming of the Son of Man when it will be a world event in which everyone in the world will experience it. People will be eating, marrying and enjoying themselves, oblivious until the Son of Man come to sweep them away.

Therefore, the coming of the Son of Man is not an event that happened only in Israel or the Middle East but it will be experience throughout the world, as it was in the days of Noah when the Great Flood engulfed the whole world. But no one knows when that day will come except the Father in heaven.

Many Blessings.

Hi,
We went from a 'seems to suggest" to an absolute statement of fact.

Perhaps we should look again at what the inclusion of Noahs example was exemplifying. I think if you look at the point in RED above, you'll see the point that Jesus was wanting to get across. For those in Jerusalem and Judea not believing in Jesus words nor watching, the people knew nothing of what would happen until the Roman army came and swept them all away.
I think Joe has hit it on the head that the message is about removing the ungodly while the remnant remains or is preserved.

Ezekiel prophesied during the Babylonian captivity. He mentions Noah, Job, and Daniel in chapter 14 along with the sword being delivered against Jerusalem. Here he uses a figure of speech saying that even though Noah, Daniel and Job would be in Jerusalem, they each would deliver their own souls from the destruction. This would be an association with the New Covenant where each one would be accountable for their own destiny and blessing; not the continuation of the national, corporal preservation of the old covenant for at this time, the old covenant was broken, ended by the removal of the ark of the covenant.

Perhaps Jesus is partly making an association in the disciples minds about his prophecy. Notice the 4 sore judgments are repeated by Jesus in the Olivet and Jerusalem is the focus of this event also. As Paul quotes Isaiah 10 in Romans 9 referring the remnant to be saved through the desolation, so also Ezekiel mentions the same idea of a remnant being brought forth.

13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

15If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

21For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

23And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

**EndtimesDeut32/70AD** · 10-05-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock

Hi,
Food for thought: Does those days of Noah sounds like the present day in which people are happily feasting, marrying oblivious to what is happening and coming to this world?....earthquakes in Indonesia, floods in Philippines etc.

Many Blessings to all.

I don't think there was ever a time when people were not feasting, marrying, etc. DO YOU??

I just read where John Calvin when helping to translate the Geneva Bible, sought to expedite it's progress because of the disreguard for their lives and morality that was in his city at that time. At an all time high is how he put it. I think the implication of Noahs time might be that they were living without respect to their eternal state. "Eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow we die". Could that perhaps be the concept being presented?

Just as Peter said that in the last days, (of the old covenant and of Jerusalem; my insertion) scoffers would coming saying 'where is the promise of his coming, for since the days of the fathers (fathers of the nation of Israel) things have continued as they were since the creation of the World. And they forget that God powerfully intervened to remove ungodliness from the land with the flood, and so he would again in Jerusalem and throughout the earth as a result of both the confirmation of the New Covenant and the establishment and support of the internal kingdom of God through the power of Heaven.

Here is a pretty good article that lists some of the imposters, famines, pestilence, earthquake, etc..
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Part...age/matt24.htm
Although the author makes a distinction between the different words used for "end" and "then" vs 'that day'.

P.S. It is again important to realize the differnce between Gennema and Genea.... and what Jesus meant by "THIS Genea".... and 'some of you standing here".... (there in Jerusalem in 30 AD)

Food for thought.

**joel** · 10-05-2009, 05:24 PM

".....Just as Peter said that in the last days, (of the old covenant and of Jerusalem; my insertion)....."

Why must you continue to insist, along with the others who hold the position, that the old covenant (i. e. the first covenant is passed away...past tense)? Read again the passage in Hebrews.

Has it passed away?.....or, is it in a state of passing away......? There is a difference...is there not?

The Jews,.......even unto this day......when the read Moses......are blinded. This is a state of blindness that continues until this day.

It is not past tense. It is continuing.....in the present.

Preterists continue to assert that it is all finished. But.......if you look closely at the facts.....not your theories......you will see that it is not a matter of the past.

Joel

**EndtimesDeut32/70AD** · 10-05-2009, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by joel

".....Just as Peter said that in the last days, (of the old covenant and of Jerusalem; my insertion)....."

Why must you continue to insist, along with the others who hold the position, that the old covenant (i. e. the first covenant is passed away...past tense)? Read again the passage in Hebrews.

Has it passed away?.....or, is it in a state of passing away......? There is a difference...is there not?

The Jews,.......even unto this day......when the read Moses......are blinded. This is a state of blindness that continues until this day.

It is not past tense. It is continuing.....in the present.

Preterists continue to assert that it is all finished. But.......if you look closely at the facts.....not your theories......you will see that it is not a matter of the past.

Joel

Good question.
So that we are on the same page; What in your mind is/was the "old covenant"? or 'the first covenant".
There have been others I have discussed this with who have confused prophecies and statements by God about the formation of the nation that were given to Abraham with the actual covenant offered to and contracted by the people/nation themselves. So what in your mind is the 'old covenant' which Hebrews talks about through most of chapters 4-10?
The answer is right in Jeremiah 31 or Heb 10 when he says how the old covenant started.

Hebrews does indeed say in chapter 8:
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. Ready is eggos. Strongs says
2) of time
a) of times imminent and soon to come pass

Since this was written in 60 AD we would be rational to assume that this meant imminent at that time and imminent to the original readers.

CAN WE AGREE TO THIS POINT?

Hebrews also says in chapter 8 along with the above:
For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews says in chapter 10 speaking of the two covenants: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

And in chapter 7:
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Then also in 2 Corinthians chapter 3, in the second part which you alluded to:

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

When the old covenant was given it was prophecied right in the covenant that it would be broken have a latter end and be done away with. My namesake is where it was prophesied to have that end and the circumstances surrounding this 'end' was elaborated upon by other prophets of national Israel. If you haven't followed the discussion Joe and I had about Deut 32 in the Generation of Vipers section, your very welcome to do so.

And also in 2 Cor 3:
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Here again is talking of the old covenant, ministry of condemnation vs the unconditional love/forgiveness, removal of sins of Christ and eternal life (now)

And also,
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

"Until this day is at least talking about until the day of the desolation when either the believing jews escaped to Pella, or unbelieving Jews perished or parts of the sects lived on or sold into slavery. As mentioned in the other post according to Jewish sources 94% of those who call themselves Israel are directly associated with the talmudism or Judaism. This is more closely associated with a new religion than it is of the old covenant nation.

But even so, when Moses law is read as a compelled performance or as law of conditional salvation or conditional blessing to that nation, the veil is on the heart obscureing the antithetical aspect of the old covenant.

I do think it applies to this day also at least somewhat as I'm sure that they read the talmud as much as Moses: that when Moses is read, the hardness of the law and the insurmountable obligation to do "All that was commanded of them" creates a veil so that those under law cannot see that the law itself was inferior, and faulty and contained within it prophecies of the circumcision of the heart and the remedy of Loving God with new heart.

Nevertheless when the HEART shall turn to the Lord, the veil of the law shall be removed. NOW the LORD is that Spirit (which circumcises the heart through faith in Christ for absolute forgiveness of sin, even sin against a law). The Lord being near and nigh unto us through faith was promised in Duet 30 and became reality through the incarnation and the remaining of Jesus here with us in the form of His Spirit (John 14-16) Where the Spirit of the Lord has taken away the veil of the Law, there is LIBERTY, just as Paul says in Romans 10:4.
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The difference between the Law and Grace is the difference between seeking Gods kingdom through meeting conditions of "a" law, weather it be old covenant national Israel law....or even making 'church' and conditional behavioral laws out of the Epistles. Grace receives unconditional forgiveness and justification through reqeust in faith through hearing by God. God's kingdom is recieved personally, internally and then we owe HIM our allegience and the reformation of our lives due to His unconditional Mercies. (His love constrains us and leads us to a hopefully positive and abundant life)
John 1:17. For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
I heard recently of a Pentacostal group that wanted to make their pastors sign a paper saying that they would teach that salvation (eternal life; I presume) was conditional upon certain dress codes and so forth associated with church membership.

So again, before much further discussion we would need you to specifically identify what you feel is the "old covenant"?

By the way, I do reject that the people that follow the talmudic religion/judaism are "jews". Paul says the true jews are the ones of the circumcision of the Heart and of like faith as Abraham. (Rom 2:28,29) Those who Hear the Prophet and the Lord that Moses talked about in Deut 18 and Deut 30 and who fulfilled both the old covenant and the covenant of everlasting life. National "Israel" was only a nation or a people of the old covenant. If that covenant has ended, so also has the old covenant nation and the people from Gods perspective

Neither do I subscribe to the futurists/zionist misinterpretation of Romans 11.