Hell is not eternal

**David** · 08-28-2007, 11:12 AM

Thanks everyone for an interesting and hopeful thread.

I'm going to try reading the tentmaker site when I get a chance. So the word for eons is being translated to forever. It sure seems imprecise at a glance. I sure hope this is going where I think it is.

**shalag** · 08-28-2007, 04:27 PM

So would the Messianic age include not only first coming - but his second also? I thought the Messianic age is when Christ was supposed to rule and reign for 1000 years. And if Christ's second coming is the 'third eon' - that would be an interesting concept as the ark had three stories, the temple had three stories and Eutychus fell out the third story window. The threes thing.

I know the Bible begins with the generations of Adam. And then when you read the NT it starts out with "And this is the generation (geneaology) of Jesus Christ." Making is sound like the 'second' round of things.

Anymore I can't even remember what I 'used to think'! Now I just don't know.

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 08-28-2007, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by shalag

So would the Messianic age include not only first coming - but his second also? I thought the Messianic age is when Christ was supposed to rule and reign for 1000 years. And if Christ's second coming is the 'third eon' - that would be an interesting concept as the ark had three stories, the temple had three stories and Eutychus fell out the third story window. The threes thing.

Hi shalag,

Good question. Off the top of my head, I would say that there are at least two meanings to "Messianic Age." Since Jews didn't know about the two comings of Messiah, they spoke of "this world" and "the world to come" in which Messiah would rule and which they thought would be like what Christians call the "Millennium" (Universal Peace, Prosperity, etc.). That's one reason they say Jesus was not the Messiah, because He didn't accomplish those things at His first coming. But since we know Christ was Messiah, we are living in the "Messianic Age" - that is, the age that began when the Jewish Age ended and will continue until the "Consummation" when the New Heaven and New Earth are manifested at the Second Coming. In this view, there is no literal "Millennium." Christ rules in the hearts of men for a "thousand years" which is a Biblical symbol of "a long time."

So we have three ages:

1) the Jewish age,
2) the Christian age,
3) the New Heaven and Earth Age

Or this could be extended to various dispensations:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First to the Second Coming),
5) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

If you are amillennialist, then the Christian Age is the Millennium. If, on the other hand, you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then we would have a possible division like this:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First Coming to Millennium),
5) the Millennium
6) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

Of course, none of these lists have the Perfect Number Seven so they will need to massaged and manipulated until we arrive at that magic number. Click here for a typical example of the Seven Dispensations.

Originally Posted by shalag

I know the Bible begins with the generations of Adam. And then when you read the NT it starts out with "And this is the generation (geneaology) of Jesus Christ." Making is sound like the 'second' round of things.

Yes indeed! Christ is the "Second Adam." The pattern you noted was intentional.

Originally Posted by shalag

Anymore I can't even remember what I 'used to think'! Now I just don't know.

That's actually a very good condition to be in. You need to empty the cup of its old contents before you can fill it with the new.

Richard

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 08-28-2007, 07:57 PM

Here is a link to the online version of Louis Abbott's classic study of the meaning of olam and aion called "An Analytic Study of Words."

Here's a snippet from his forward:

One key area various denominations are divided over, is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerated or however one wishes to phrase it. There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.

Dr. C. Ryder Smith, a teacher of eschatology for twenty years, says in his book, The Bible Doctrine of the Hereafter (p. 258): "In an earlier chapter, it has been shown that the New Testament teaches everlasting punishment. On a review of the whole evidence, therefore, it follows that throughout that book there are two doctrines, which, to the human mind, are irreconcilable: The doctrine of universalism and the doctrine that there are those who will not be saved." The Scriptures do not teach two different destinies for mankind They only seem to do so because of mistranslations. The Scriptures are the inspired words of God and therefore cannot be contradictory.

RAM

**joel** · 08-29-2007, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by RAM

Hi shalag,

Good question. Off the top of my head, I would say that there are at least two meanings to "Messianic Age." Since Jews didn't know about the two comings of Messiah, they spoke of "this world" and "the world to come" in which Messiah would rule and which they thought would be like what Christians call the "Millennium" (Universal Peace, Prosperity, etc.). That's one reason they say Jesus was not the Messiah, because He didn't accomplish those things at His first coming. But since we know Christ was Messiah, we are living in the "Messianic Age" - that is, the age that began when the Jewish Age ended and will continue until the "Consummation" when the New Heaven and New Earth are manifested at the Second Coming. In this view, there is no literal "Millennium." Christ rules in the hearts of men for a "thousand years" which is a Biblical symbol of "a long time."

So we have three ages:

1) the Jewish age,
2) the Christian age,
3) the New Heaven and Earth Age

Or this could be extended to various dispensations:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First to the Second Coming),
5) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

If you are amillennialist, then the Christian Age is the Millennium. If, on the other hand, you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then we would have a possible division like this:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First Coming to Millennium),
5) the Millennium
6) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

Of course, none of these lists have the Perfect Number Seven so they will need to massaged and manipulated until we arrive at that magic number. Click here for a typical example of the Seven Dispensations.

Yes indeed! Christ is the "Second Adam." The pattern you noted was intentional.

That's actually a very good condition to be in. You need to empty the cup of its old contents before you can fill it with the new.

Richard

Richard, I would suggest that we look at the two words; ages (aionos), and dispensation (oikonomia) as not being descriptive of the same thing.

An eon, or age (aionos) seems to be referring as a phase of time.

Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.

Also, there are things which have occurred "before" the eons.
There are things that have occurred, and will occur during the eons.
And, it appears that the current eons will terminate, followed by undescribed events that God has chosen not yet to reveal to us.

Joel

**Geoffrey** · 08-29-2007, 10:05 AM

Hallo Joel,

Originally Posted by joel

Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.

Yes, that sounds good to me.

A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 08-29-2007, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by joel

Richard, I would suggest that we look at the two words; ages (aionos), and dispensation (oikonomia) as not being descriptive of the same thing.

An eon, or age (aionos) seems to be referring as a phase of time.

Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.

Good suggestion Joel. Thanks! It is important to note that the words have different connotations. But it seems to me that the oikonomia is the "dispensation" or "stewardship" that corresponds to the aion in which it is found. Is there something in the Bible that suggests more than one dispensation per aion?

Originally Posted by joel

Also, there are things which have occurred "before" the eons.

There are things that have occurred, and will occur during the eons.
And, it appears that the current eons will terminate, followed by undescribed events that God has chosen not yet to reveal to us.

Joel

I agree that there are things that happened before this set of aions (the current aion of aions) in which we currently live. And there will be things that happen after. I think an "aion" is probably a period of about 2200 years, since that is one cycle on the Bible Wheel, and it corresponds well with traditional Christian chronology. It also is curious that it corresponds almost exactly with one astrological age, which is about 2160 years, though I don't know much beyond that. Of course, Bullinger taught the Gospel in the Stars, so we shouldn't confuse the connection with pop (ungodly) astrology.

Richard

**joel** · 08-29-2007, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Geoffrey

Hallo Joel,

Yes, that sounds good to me.

A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.

Hallo, back to ya, Geoffrey,

Following are some uses of the word "oikonomia";

Luke 16:3 And the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my Lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

I Corinthians 9:16, 17 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

One particular verse has me a little confused (maybe Richard could shed some light).....
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (eons) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

the above rendering was taken from the KJV where the word "fellowship" is taken correctly from "koinonia". However, in other versions, the word "koinonia" is replaced with "oikonomia" which we are discussing as meaning "dispensation", or "administration".

Joel

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 08-29-2007, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Geoffrey

Hallo Joel,

Yes, that sounds good to me.

A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.

Hi Geoffrey!

I'll ask you the same question I posed to Joel. It seems to me that there is probably one dispensation per aion. For example, the 2000 year aion from Abraham to Christ was the "Dispensation of Law" and the dispensation from Christ till His Second Coming is the "Dispensation of Grace." Is there something in the Bible that suggests we should subdivide the dispensations within these two great aions?

Richard

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 08-29-2007, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by joel

One particular verse has me a little confused (maybe Richard could shed some light).....

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (eons) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

the above rendering was taken from the KJV where the word "fellowship" is taken correctly from "koinonia". However, in other versions, the word "koinonia" is replaced with "oikonomia" which we are discussing as meaning "dispensation", or "administration".

Joel

That's a "textual variation" Joel. The TR (Textus Receptus) is almost alone in its witness of the word "koinonia" here. Almost all other mss have oikonomia.

Richard