Hell is not eternal

[Geoffrey]

Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to start a thread on this.

Ezekiel 28:18-19Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to start a thread on this.

Ezekiel 28:18-19Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey

Well now! Thanks Geoffrey! I did want to discuss this.

I have never settled on the question of annihilationism, but I am pretty sure it is the view most consistent with the overall teaching of Scripture. I have been wrestling with it for a very long time. Most of my books on the topic are marked on ever page, and most of the marks are sharp criticisms of the sloppy exegesis of the proponents of "eternal conscious torment" in hell.

To begin with, I think the "fire" is either purgative (drives the soul to repentance) or devouring (leaving nothing but ash). It seems the annihilation is most consistent with the many verses that speak of the wicked ceasing to exist, annihilated by the fire that consumes:

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 15:13 Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

I think one reason I have hesitated on this is because of the strong-arm tactics used by teachers who could not support their arguments with Scripture, so they attack anyone who teaches annihilationism as a heretic.

But we'll see ... maybe I have missed something important, and someone on the forum will show me how the Bible really does teach that God casts sinners into a hell of eternal conscious torment.

Richard

[CAPS]

In order to come to a correct conclusion regarding the fate of the wicked.....certain things in the overall plan of God must be understood. One is a proper understanding of the Greek word ''aionos''....translated ''forever''. This word actually means a limited period of time.......an ''age''.

Some of the verses previously quoted in above posts would seem to indicate that the wicked ''will be no more'' etc. However, some of this language is metaphor and is looking at matters from an ''earth'' perspective. I do not believe those verses should be used as proof texts for annihilationism.

One thing to consider is this. The Last Enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH. So if anyone is to be in the condition called ''death'' then that would contradict this fact. If some are going to be ''forever dead'' then How does that fit in with ''death being destroyed''? Something to think about.

If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In order to come to a correct conclusion regarding the fate of the wicked.....certain things in the overall plan of God must be understood. One is a proper understanding of the Greek word ''aionos''....translated ''forever''. This word actually means a limited period of time.......an ''age''.

Hey there Caps!

I do believe this is my first post to you, so let me take this opportunity to say "Welcome to our forum!"



I agree with your comment about "aionios" - we really need to do a word study on that before we come to any conclusions about the eternal fate of the wicked.

Some of the verses previously quoted in above posts would seem to indicate that the wicked ''will be no more'' etc. However, some of this language is metaphor and is looking at matters from an ''earth'' perspective. I do not believe those verses should be used as proof texts for annihilationism.

Yes, all verses must be evaluated in light of the entire Bible.

One thing to consider is this. The Last Enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH. So if anyone is to be in the condition called ''death'' then that would contradict this fact. If some are going to be ''forever dead'' then How does that fit in with ''death being destroyed''? Something to think about.

Yes, that is similar to my reason for rejecting the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. Since God will be "all in all" where will the damned "be." That's part of the reason I think the only Biblical solution is either annihilationism or Christian universalism. My brother in law thinks that God would be more glorified if He succeeded in redeeming all, but I wonder if He may need to annihilate the unrepentant. But he thinks God is able to bring all to repentance, and since that is God's stated will, he thinks there is a case to be built. But something in me still hesitates. But it sure would be a nice change to not be "greater than God" in that he doesn't hate people that he commands me to love.

If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

Yes, I am very interested. Please say more. As for the book ... thanks for tip. I'll look into it.

Richard

[joel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPS
If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

Yes, I am very interested. Please say more. As for the book ... thanks for tip. I'll look into it.

Richard

The book, The Restitution of All Things, by Andrew Jukes, is one of many that he wrote which speaks of the riches of typology in the scripture. I would also recommend Types in Genesis which speaks of the types of the people who are listed in Genesis as they apply to the outward church, and, how they apply to the life of faith in the believer.

Insight into the spiritual meaning of types is very helpful to us as we study scripture, particularly the letters to us from Paul, as he used many examples out of Genesis and other Old Testament writings in his teachings. Jukes was masterful at discussing this detail as he appeared not only versed in Hebrew, Greeek and Latin, but, also in the writings of the early church fathers to whom he refers to extensively in his writings.

Andrew Jukes, once a part of the Church of England, began to be an active participant of the Plymouth Brethren. His years of life were 1815-1901. Other books by him include; Four Views of Christ, The Names of God, The Law and the Offerings.

Joel

[David]

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases."

Hi David,

I found Andrew Juke's Restitution of All Things on the tentmakers site:

http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm

I'll comment on it as I find time.

As for the interpretation of Rev 14:11 ... that certainly is a favorite amongst Eternal Conscious Tormentors, but we don't need to rush to an answer. On the contrary, every major doctrine has its "difficult" verses - Calvinism, Trinity, you name it - so we should be careful to tread slowly and carefully, fully honoring Scripture as God's Divine Revelation all along the way.

The first thing to note is where the verse is found. Any answer to the meaning of Rev 14:11 will, of course, depend on the interpretive scheme we have adopted for the whole book. It seems rather foolish to jump to the conclusion that this verse could be used as "proof" of anything before we understand the correct interpretation that God intended for the whole book that He inspired.

That said, I will note my first impression is that the New Heavens and Earth marks the beginning of an entirely new "aion of aions" from which every flaw, sin, death, pain, and sorrow of the old order of things has been annihilated. So the "smoke of their torment" that ascended into the old "aion of aions" will be annihilated along with everything else marred by wickedness, so our God will be the "all in all."

That's just one possibility ... I haven't tested it to see if it holds up.

I understand your caution about the doe-eyed child, but we must not take our mental weaknesses as an excuse for accepting monstrous falsehoods about the nature of God. The folks who demand that we deny our moral intuitions (created in the image of God) and subsume them under some humanly crafted philosophical interpretations, have made the same error as the doe-eyed child, only now the error is coupled with a monstrous intellectual pride that presumes to be able to declare such things as the Eternal Decrees of God.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

I'm just twenty minutes reading into Juke's book, and I can say that it is resplendent with intelligence and radiant with respect, love, and knowledge of the Bible as God's Word. It is a must read!

http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm

Richard

[joel]

Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases."

David,

As CAPS pointed out in his previous post (#3), the Greek word "aionos" which is used in the verse where it reads, "forever and ever", means "for the age". In this case, it is both interesting and instructive that if we use the closest English equivalent to "aionos" which is "eon", we would show it as "for the eon of the eons".

If an "aionos" = an "eon", it is a definitive period with a beginning, and an ending. If, as Richard suggests, we do a comprehensive word study, this word may very well reveal that it is not appropriate to show it as "eternal", or, "everlasting", or "forever and ever".
Those expressions convey the obvious meaning of continuing on into time without cessation, whereas, "eon" does not have that meaning, and, conveys a sense of ending.

In God's "progressive revelation", it may be that He uses the "eons", in succession, to bring about His purpose, which, when fulfilled, will end the current series of eons.

There have been some interesting analogies made that compare the typology of the tablernacle in the wilderness with the outworking of the eons...moving from outside the camp, into the enclosure, into the tent, and finally, terminating in the "holy of holies" which may be representative of the "eon of the eons".....each successive step being representative of an eon during which God has revealed Himself.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

David,

As CAPS pointed out in his previous post (#3), the Greek word "aionos" which is used in the verse where it reads, "forever and ever", means "for the age". In this case, it is both interesting and instructive that if we use the closest English equivalent to "aionos" which is "eon", we would show it as "for the eon of the eons".

If an "aionos" = an "eon", it is a definitive period with a beginning, and an ending. If, as Richard suggests, we do a comprehensive word study, this word may very well reveal that it is not appropriate to show it as "eternal", or, "everlasting", or "forever and ever".
Those expressions convey the obvious meaning of continuing on into time without cessation, whereas, "eon" does not have that meaning, and, conveys a sense of ending.

In God's "progressive revelation", it may be that He uses the "eons", in succession, to bring about His purpose, which, when fulfilled, will end the current series of eons.

There have been some interesting analogies made that compare the typology of the tablernacle in the wilderness with the outworking of the eons...moving from outside the camp, into the enclosure, into the tent, and finally, terminating in the "holy of holies" which may be representative of the "eon of the eons".....each successive step being representative of an eon during which God has revealed Himself.

Joel

Hey Joel and David,

I think the Bible definitely speaks of a progression of eons, because it speaks of the events of the first century as the "end of the eon(s)." And in Jewish tradition, there are two "olams" - the one they lived in, and the "Olam HaBa" = "the World to Come" = the Messianic age. But I think we are in that Messianic age now, so there will yet be a time when this age, and the whole system of ages of which is it a part, will come to an end.

So the "olam of olams" or the "aion of aions" looks like a description of a group of progressive aions. It seems likely that that whole system of aions will be renewed/restored when the old heavens and earth of "burned up with fervent heat" (annihilated?) and the New Heavens and New Earth manifest.

Richard