Symbols and Reality in Revelation

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It's interesting to note that Revelation 2 lists four churches while Revelation 3 lists three:

The churches of Chapter 2 - BEYT - reflect relationship

Ephesus: permitted: loveless
Symna: myhrr: persecuted
Pergamos: fortified: compromising
Thyatira: odor of affliction: corrupt

The churches of Chapter 3 - GIMEL - reflect reward and punishment by catetory
Sardis: red ones: dead
Philadelphia: brotherly love: faithful
Laodicea: justice of the people: lukewarm

Interesting insights. I have wondered about the division of the Seven Letters into two chapters, because it is one of the few divisions of Revelation not strictly based on the structure of the text itself. Indeed, most of the text parses itself in accordance with its 22 chapters. This is important, because the division of Revelation into 22 chapters correlates perfectly with the Wheel, and indeed, there are many amazing connections, such as Ezekiel with Rev 4 and Daniel with Rev 5. But the division between chapters 2 and 3 appear to be "arbitrary" in the sense that the division appears to have been based on the length of the text, rather than its internal structure. Or maybe not? If observations like yours are valid, then perhaps there is a structural pattern in the Seven Letters that naturally segregates them into two groups of 4 (= 2 x 2) and 3.

I explored some of the possibilities here: http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheel...tion/Rev02.asp

Richard

[joel]

shalag It's interesting to note that Revelation 2 lists four churches while Revelation 3 lists three:

The churches of Chapter 2 - BEYT - reflect relationship

Ephesus: permitted: loveless
Symna: myhrr: persecuted
Pergamos: fortified: compromising
Thyatira: odor of affliction: corrupt

The churches of Chapter 3 - GIMEL - reflect reward and punishment by catetory
Sardis: red ones: dead
Philadelphia: brotherly love: faithful
Laodicea: justice of the people: lukewarm

Today 08:52 AM
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That observation, my ol' buddy, is very interesting, worth much thought and prayer.

Thanks, Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It's interesting to note that Revelation 2 lists four churches while Revelation 3 lists three:

The churches of Chapter 2 - BEYT - reflect relationship

Ephesus: permitted: loveless
Symna: myhrr: persecuted
Pergamos: fortified: compromising
Thyatira: odor of affliction: corrupt

The churches of Chapter 3 - GIMEL - reflect reward and punishment by catetory
Sardis: red ones: dead
Philadelphia: brotherly love: faithful
Laodicea: justice of the people: lukewarm

Hey Shalag,

It looks like you got your definitions from Strong's concordance, correct? That's a good place to start, but a little more analysis will go a long ways to a fuller understanding of the meaning of those churches.

Εφεσος Ephesus - The closest Greek word to this name is aphesis which literal means to "let go" and is used often to mean "forgiven of sin." That seems to be where the idea of "permitted" came from. Here is the full definition:

αφεσιςaphesis {af'-es-is} from 863; TDNT - 1:509,88; n f AV - remission 9, forgiveness 6, deliverance 1, liberty 1; 17 1) release from bondage or imprisonment 2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

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Σμυρνα Smyrna Strong's definition of Smyrna as myrrh is correct. Note that Smyrna was the persecuted church, and the myrrh was used when Christ was buried. There is a profound connection here.

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ΠεργαμοςPergamos: Strong's says it means "height" or "elevation" and suggest that it comes from purgos = tower (Matt 21:33). This is similar to your definition as "fortified." But the prefix "Perg" could also mean "earthly" as in Perga (Acts 13:13). I think they took that from Gai = earth. In any case, I have long thought that it represented the church that became "married" (gamos) to the world system. This makes pretty good sense, because it is the compromising church.

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Thyatira - that requires more thought. It is not clear how James Strong made that association.

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I'll comment on the last three as I find time.

Thanks for introducing the meanings of the names. That's a very important aspect to consider.

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for posting on these etymologies. I have very limited tools available here in Seoul for analysing Greek words, and rely on online sources.

I love the large Greek fonts that Richard uses. Very impressive visually. Just a comment or two.

If the word Ephesus - Ephesos - was to be looked for as a Hebraic root, the closest would be ephes, spelt aleph - peh - samekh, meaning 'extremity', as in ephesi eretz = 'ends of the earth'. The suffix -os is common in Greek.

The association of myrrh to Smyrna is very powerful. It was used as an ingredient in anaesthetic compounds, and was offered to our Lord as he was dying on the Cross. Because it is aromatic, sometimes quite strongly so, it was also used in burial. These ideas are deeply bound to the message of the church at Smyrna (now Izmir, in Turkey).

The idea of gamos being the key root in the name Pergamos is new to me. At an initial glance, the idea is not without merit, as I tend to agree that this church is symbolic of the beginning of the integration of church and state.

I look forward to any information on the origins of the word Thyatira. Years ago I recall something about a link to the word 'daughter', but remember being entirely unsatsfied with that definition at the time.

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for posting on these etymologies. I have very limited tools available here in Seoul for analysing Greek words, and rely on online sources.

I love the large Greek fonts that Richard uses. Very impressive visually. Just a comment or two.

Hey Stephen,

You can use the Hebrew and Greek fonts too. Just copy/paste any word from the Gematria database, and then change the font in the editor, and there you go!

If the word Ephesus - Ephesos - was to be looked for as a Hebraic root, the closest would be ephes, spelt aleph - peh - samekh, meaning 'extremity', as in ephesi eretz = 'ends of the earth'. The suffix -os is common in Greek.

Yes, that is correct. But I don't see how it would fit with any pattern with the rest of the churches, or the message it received. On the other hand, it seems like the aphesis root, which means "forgiven" fits very well with the first church. But I still have an open mind since its still mostly guesswork.

The association of myrrh to Smyrna is very powerful. It was used as an ingredient in anaesthetic compounds, and was offered to our Lord as he was dying on the Cross. Because it is aromatic, sometimes quite strongly so, it was also used in burial. These ideas are deeply bound to the message of the church at Smyrna (now Izmir, in Turkey).

Yep. And thanks for pointing out the city still exists. That's useful info. But I doubt its name will ever be "Smyrna" again, which is another mark against the idea of a future set of seven literal churches.

The idea of gamos being the key root in the name Pergamos is new to me. At an initial glance, the idea is not without merit, as I tend to agree that this church is symbolic of the beginning of the integration of church and state.

It is something that seemed quite obvious to me until I started reading other peoples opinions and found many of them didn't agree. I need to find out the real meaning of the prefix "Per" to settle the issue.

I look forward to any information on the origins of the word Thyatira. Years ago I recall something about a link to the word 'daughter', but remember being entirely unsatsfied with that definition at the time.

Stephen

Yes, Thyatira is very close to "daughter" and indeed, that English word comes directly from the Greek (Strong's #2364):

Θυγατηρ thugater {thoo-gat'-air} apparently a root word [cf "daughter"];; n f AV - daughter 29; 29 1) a daughter 1a) a daughter of God 1a1) acceptable to God, rejoicing in God's peculiar care and protection 1b) with the name of a place, city, or region 1b1) denotes collectively all its inhabitants and citizens 1c) a female descendant

Compare with Thyatira - they have many letters in the same order:

Θυατειρα Thuateira {thoo-at'-i-rah} of uncertain derivation;; n pr loc AV - Thyatira 4; 4 Thyatira = "odour of affliction" 1) a colony of Macedonia Greeks, situated between Sardis and Pergamos on the river Lycus; its inhabitants gained their living by traffic and the art of dyeing in purple

But it will require more study.

Richard

[joel]

Hey Stephen,

You can use the Hebrew and Greek fonts too. Just copy/paste any word from the Gematria database, and then change the font in the editor, and there you go!

Richard, my chronic "geezer-itis" has overwhelmed me again.

Can you walk me through an example:

I am posting on a thread and I want to display a Greek word in its original Greek letters.........
I must first, then, leave my post (which would make me think that I might lose it, considering my "geezer-itis" and all)......go into the Gematria database.......and do what??????

(one of these days, we may have video conferencing......but, then I would have to comb my hair...)

Joel

[shalag]

Richard, my chronic "geezer-itis" has overwhelmed me again.

Can you walk me through an example:

I am posting on a thread and I want to display a Greek word in its original Greek letters.........
I must first, then, leave my post (which would make me think that I might lose it, considering my "geezer-itis" and all)......go into the Gematria database.......and do what??????

(one of these days, we may have video conferencing......but, then I would have to comb my hair...)

Joel

Hei Joel!

What I do is bring another window on the screen. On the main toolbar under the word file my menu says 'new window' or 'new tab'. I like the tab system. That opens a new window. Then I put the BW Gematria base in that window. That way I don't lose what I'm working on in this window - I just switch between windows that I'm looking at -and they all stay as I left them until I go back to them.

You just copy the word from the gematria base - switch back to the post window and paste it where you want it.

Hope that helps.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hei Joel!

What I do is bring another window on the screen. On the main toolbar under the word file my menu says 'new window' or 'new tab'. I like the tab system. That opens a new window. Then I put the BW Gematria base in that window. That way I don't lose what I'm working on in this window - I just switch between windows that I'm looking at -and they all stay as I left them until I go back to them.

You just copy the word from the gematria base - switch back to the post window and paste it where you want it.

Hope that helps.

Yep! That's the trick. Have the Database in another tab or window, and that way you can add things without navigating back and forth.

Look at you shalag! You're a computer consultant now!

[shalag]

Yep! That's the trick. Have the Database in another tab or window, and that way you can add things without navigating back and forth.

Look at you shalag! You're a computer consultant now!

I believe my sister nominated me for the 'cyber challenged' poster child. In frustration she finally conceded 'Good thing you have a MAC.' But now

[Richard Amiel McGough]

OK - How are we supposed to understand Revelation 8-9?

I think it must be symbolic, but I don't know what it means yet. I'm working on it and will get back soon with the results of my research. In the meanwhile, does anyone else have even half a clue? If so, please share it with us!

Joel, I'd very much like to know how you understand these two chapters. If you tell us, it may help the rest of us express our ideas better.

Richard