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  1. #1
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    Fulfillment of the Great Day of the Lord - Future or Past?

    This thread is a place to answer one question:

    Is the fulfillment of the "Great and Dreadful/Notable Day of the Lord" mentioned in Malachi 4:5 and Acts 2:20 past or future?
    • Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    • Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    This thread is open to every one who would like to participate. Our goal is clarity and brevity. Folks should strive to make their points as succinctly as possible.

    We should strive to answer any refutation with simplicity and clarity. Acknowledging that we "don't know" when in fact we "don't know" is a virtue, and does not imply that the opposing point is correct.

    We are fundamentally all on the same side here. Our one goal is to discern and articulate the Truth of God's Word.

    Let us all pray that God pours out His Spirit to reveal the truth of His Word,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #2
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    My position is that the Day of the Lord began to be fulfilled at the Coming of Christ, and was completed in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

    I will begin by citing the primary "complex" of verses that imply my conclusion. I will be following the thematic structure upon which God designed His Word.

    I begin therefore with the prophecies of John the Baptist given in the last book of the OT and fulfilled in the adjacent first book of the NT (an example of the thematic continuity of the Bible):
    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
    Here we see that God directly associated the coming of John the Baptist in the first century with the "day of his coming." We know this was speaking of John the Baptist because Jesus said so.

    This is confirmed in the second prophecy of John the Baptist:
    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
    Almost identical language is used in Joel:
    Joel 2:30-31 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    The Bible also gives testimony that this happened in the first century:
    Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Of utmost importance is Peter's statement that "this is that" which was spoke by the prophet Joel.

    Now consider what we have here. We have an integrated prophetic complex of multiple mutually confirming verses that all point to a first century fulfillment. And there a many others that confirm these, but I didn't want to write too big of a post.

    My question to the futurists amongst us is this - on what basis should we reject this prima facie evidence that speaks of the "day of the lord" happening in the first century?

    I think this is a good start,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
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    Hello, fellow participants

    My first point (coming from the Pastist position ) is in the form of a question.

    Why would a 1st century Jew have looked at the destruction of their city, and the complete obliteration of their Temple, as anything but the "Great and terrible Day of the Lord" being fulfilled?

    The last time Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians it was because of God's wrath, so it stands to reason that those (especially any Jew who heard Peters discourse at Pentecost) who witnessed its destruction in 70AD would have believed it happened because of God's wrath, thus fulfilling the "Great and terrible Day of the Lord".

    Nothing of that magnitude involving their Holy city had happened since Malachi had given his prophecy, and at Pentecost, Peter confirmed that the last days they were in, were the days leading up to the "Great and notable Day of the Lord".

    Many blessings to all

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  4. #4
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    Joel 2:28-32 (King James Version)

    28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    -----------------------------------------------------

    This is a section of what Joel prophesied........which is the portion quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17-21.

    Notice, as you compare Peter's quote with the section to which he refers, that there is a difference.

    Do you see that?

    Is it important to note that not all of what Joel said in that section was quoted?

    Joel

    King James Version (KJV)
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Joel 2:28-32 (King James Version)

    28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    -----------------------------------------------------

    This is a section of what Joel prophesied........which is the portion quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17-21.

    Notice, as you compare Peter's quote with the section to which he refers, that there is a difference.

    Do you see that?

    Is it important to note that not all of what Joel said in that section was quoted?

    Joel

    King James Version (KJV)
    Hey Joel,

    Yes, I think it is important to note every detail of the text. But we should not introduce speculation at this point of our conversation.

    We need to begin by agreeing on those things that can be established with certainty. Our foundation must be built on what the Bible states, not on speculations about why certain things were not stated.

    Speculation is like sand. It shifts and changes very easily. Facts that are confirmed by many witnesses are like a solid ROCK. We must build our foundation on the ROCK or the house of our interpretation is sure to fall.

    That said, let's look at the words from Joel that Peter did not quote:
    32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    Is there anything here that would suggest a future fulfillment? I don't think so. We know that there was deliverance in Jerusalem through Jesus Christ in the first century, and we know that He delivered the remnant of believing Jews.

    So I don't know why Peter didn't quote those words, but I don't see anything that would suggest a future fulfillment.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    I wasn't speculating about what the missing part meant.

    I merely pointed out that there was a difference, but, now that you bring it up...........why should we assume that all of what Joel prophesied was fulfilled at that point in the Acts account?

    While we are here at this point, are there other parts of Joel's prophecy that may not have been fulfilled at Pentecost in the first century?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    I wasn't speculating about what the missing part meant.

    I merely pointed out that there was a difference, but, now that you bring it up...........why should we assume that all of what Joel prophesied was fulfilled at that point in the Acts account?

    While we are here at this point, are there other parts of Joel's prophecy that may not have been fulfilled at Pentecost in the first century?

    Joel
    Hi Joel,
    Joel 2:27-32 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    Since we are dealing with these specific verses that Peter quoted from Joel concerning the "Great and terrible Day of the Lord", we can safely assume that the beginning of their fulfillment started at Pentecost. As to the rest of Joel's prophecy, we probably should leave that for another discussion.... otherwise this thread will be going off in too many different directions.

    The foundational question is: Did the prophecy of Joel, that was quoted by Peter, begin to be fulfilled at Pentecost.......?

    If we can start there and answer that question, then we can go on to next question: Did the prophecy that began to be fulfilled at Pentecost, have its culmination in 70AD?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    I wasn't speculating about what the missing part meant.

    I merely pointed out that there was a difference, but, now that you bring it up...........why should we assume that all of what Joel prophesied was fulfilled at that point in the Acts account?

    While we are here at this point, are there other parts of Joel's prophecy that may not have been fulfilled at Pentecost in the first century?

    Joel
    Don't worry bro - I wasn't accusing you of speculating. I was just taking the opportunity to remind everyone something I thought was very important for the success of our endeavors.

    As for everything in Joel's prophecy being fulfilled - that is an entirely different question and should be dealt with in another thread. This thread is devoted to the singular question of whether the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord is future or past.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=RAM][Is the fulfillment of the "Great and Dreadful/Notable Day of the Lord" mentioned in Malachi 4:5 and Acts 2:20 past or future?/QUOTE]

    As we have experienced,................these threads can become very convoluted......going off into directions......leading down trails.....and never coming to a conclusion, a culmination.

    With that said, let us focus on two words; fulfillment, and culmination.

    You have said, Richard, that the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in the section quoted by Peter was complete, final.

    You have also said that the destruction of the temple, and the destruction of Jerusalem culminated.....ended, a process.

    We have then......a fulfillment......and a culmination.

    What two words in the Greek language would apply to these terms?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    [quote=RAM][Is the fulfillment of the "Great and Dreadful/Notable Day of the Lord" mentioned in Malachi 4:5 and Acts 2:20 past or future?/QUOTE]
    Hey bro,

    Before I answer you post, let me give you a hint about why you are having trouble getting the quotes to look right.

    Do you see the right square bracket - [ - just past the [quote=RAM] in the quote above? That's the problem. The square bracket is supposed to go just before the forward slash at final "quote" tag, so that a proper quote of "blah blah blah ..." would look like this:

    [quote=RAM]blah blah blah ...[/quote]

    Hope that helps!

    Now on to your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Is the fulfillment of the "Great and Dreadful/Notable Day of the Lord" mentioned in Malachi 4:5 and Acts 2:20 past or future?
    As we have experienced,................these threads can become very convoluted......going off into directions......leading down trails.....and never coming to a conclusion, a culmination.
    That's exactly correct. And I'm pretty sure it's just as frustrating for everyone else as it is for me. That's why I really hope we can work together to narrow down the conversation to the question at hand, and find some kind of resolution, or barring that, at least a clear statement of why we differ, with agreement that the differences are legitimately based on the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    With that said, let us focus on two words; fulfillment, and culmination.

    You have said, Richard, that the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in the section quoted by Peter was complete, final.

    You have also said that the destruction of the temple, and the destruction of Jerusalem culminated.....ended, a process.

    We have then......a fulfillment......and a culmination.

    What two words in the Greek language would apply to these terms?

    Joel
    Excellent questions. I think we should look at them. We probably will learn a lot.

    The first thing I would like to point out is that the word fulfilled characterizes and separates out five books from the rest of the Bible. Here is a graph of the distribution of "fulfilled" from my article explaining the Sevenfold Symmetric Perfection of the Holy Bible:




    As you can see, the idea of fulfillment characterizes the the Gospels and Acts, the Historical section of the NT. There is an implication in this ....

    Now the primary Greek word translated as fulfilled is plearoo, Strong's #4137:
    4137 pleroo {play-ro'-o}
    Meaning: 1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full 1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally 1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied 2) to render full, i.e. to complete 2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim 2b) to consummate: a number 2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect 2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking) 2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise 2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute 2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish 2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
    Usage: AV - fulfil 51, fill 19, be full 7, complete 2, end 2, misc 9; 90
    Note the meanings associated with this word. COMPLETE. BE FULL (not half full or partially full), TO CONSUMMATE, TO RENDER PERFECT, TO BRING TO REALIZATION, etc., etc., etc..

    It would probably be a good idea to see if anyone can find an occurrence of this word that did not imply a "complete fulfillment." (Note that the term "complete fulfillment" is redundant.)

    It seems to me that the idea of a "partial fulfillment" is an oxymoron. Of course, there are some cases of a double fulfillment, but I don't know of any partial fulfillments.

    Again, that was an excellent question Joel. Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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