the ten horns

[CWH]

Hi,

This website shows how Europe got it's name and why the EU adopted it as their symbol. This adds support that the EU may be the Woman that rides on the Beast in Revelation, the woman clothed with the sun with 12 stars on her head, the beast that rise out of the sea with 10 horns, 10 crowns and 7 heads, Europa. Are all these co-incidences? Is the EU the Revived Roman Empire that "was once alive, now it no longer lives but it will reappear"? The (Western) Roman Empire was at its height in AD 1 and by AD 100 (when the book of Revelation was written) was already on its decline. It reappeared again as the Eastern Roman Empire and as the European Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)

The name of Europe as a geographical term came in use by Ancient Greek geographers such as Strabo.[18] It is derived from the Greek word Eurōpē (Ευρώπη) in all Romance languages, Germanic languages, Slavic languages, Baltic Languages, in Finno-Ugric languages (Hungarian Európa, Finnish Eurooppa, Estonian Euroopa), as well as in Latin.
Her name appeared on postage stamps commemorating the "United Europe", which were first issued in 1956. Jürgen Fischer, in Oriens-Occidens-Europa[19] summarized how the name came into use, supplanting the oriens - occidens dichotomy of the later Roman Empire, which was expressive of a divided empire, Latin in the West, Greek in the East.

Europa and Zeus, on the Greek €2 coin
In the eighth century, ecclesiastical uses of "Europa" for the imperium of Charlemagne provide the source for the modern geographical term. The first use of the term Europenses, to describe peoples of the Christian, western portion of the continent, appeared in the Hispanic Latin Chronicle of 754, sometimes attributed to an author called Isidore Pacensis[20] in reference to the Battle of Tours fought against Muslim forces.
The European Union has also used Europa as a symbol of pan-europeanism, notably by naming its web portal after her, and depicting her on the Greek €2 coin and on several gold and silver commemorative coins (e.g. the Belgian €10 European Expansion coin).

http://www.big.com.au/fallen/europa.html

Many Blessings to you.

[CWH]

Hi,

This is another inspiration as I read further in Revelation 17 : 8-11 :

8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


*Note the almost same words which I highlighted in bold, "The beast.... who once was, now is not....going to his destruction" seems to suggest the same event and the same beast who is also the eighth king (kingdom).

In my own words, what Revelation 17 verse 8-11 seems to be saying is this:

"8 The Roman Empire that was once in its height of glory and now is not, will come out of the Earth (in the evil sense of the word) (Author's note: as a Revived Roman Empire i.e the EU) and is on its way to be destroyed. All the people who are alive now (Author's note: i.e. from 1st century when Revelation was written) and in the future (Authors note: when you are dead, your name will be registered in the book of life; those names not registered have yet to die or yet to be born) will be amazed at seeing the Roman Empire which was alive and now has lost its glory but will reappear again (Author's note: as the Revived Roman Empire, EU).

9 This requires clever interpretation. The 7 heads of states reside on Rome (i.e. 7 hills that the woman sat), the capital of the Roman Empire (Author's note: i.e. the Revived Roman Empire, EU).

10 They are also the 7 kingdoms (represented by kings). Parts of 5 of these kingdoms (which were once great empires) were conquered by the Romans and are now part of the Roman Empire (i.e. Eqypt, Assyrian, Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greece), the 6th is the Roman Empire as is of now, the 7th empire have not yet come (Author's note: i.e. the present EU), but when it appears, it will only be short-lived.

11 The beast, that once was at its glory and now is on the decline and yet to come (Author's note: i.e. the Revived Roman Empire, EU ? merged with NATO + Arab League) is the 8th Empire which is an extention of the 7th empire (i.e the EU), and will be on its way to destruction."

Interesting?.......

God Blessed

[RND]

Here's a couple of great videos that are worth watching:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2682801179928#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3852117463744#

[CWH]

I saw an interesting article that may help in identifying the 7 heads of the Beast. The heads are the 7 main departments of the EU. A plausible explanation but not very convincing as the 7 heads are also the 7 kings. Are the heads of these 7 departments also the head of their own countries? :

http://www.prepareyourways.com/The%2...%20Empire.html

The 7 Heads

This seven heads are the one on which the 10 kings and the women sits. This is the functioning machinery. As already identified in 17:9, these are

The European Council
The European Commission
The European Parliament
The Council of European Union
The EU Court of Justice
The EU Central Bank
EU Citizens ( Single market mechanism)

Another interesting site claims that Brussels, the capital of EU is the:
"Seven... Brussels is the city that had seven gates, seven hills and seven families that dominated mediaeval local politics". Interestingly, Brussels is also the headquarter of NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization).

http://www.brusselsinternational.be/...?affback=1&c=1

Well, may be, but I personally still think Rome is the 7 hills that the Woman sits that was mentioned in Revelation. The reason is because Rome during the Roman Empire and throughout the RCC days killed more Christians than Jerusalem and..... revenge is due.

Revelation 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Seal 5 of Revelation is the mass persecution of Christians towards/during the end times whose innocent blood calls out for revenge and they are told to wait a little longer during the time of seal 5 until the total target numbers of those killed for Christ has been reached by Seal 7.

Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

well. The 7 heads of the beast in Revelation is similar to the 4 heads of Daniel's 3rd beast. What did the 4 heads represent? They were 4 generals who took control after Alexander's death right? But then what about the horns? Daniel's other vision of the goat and the ram mentions that. But what I'm confused about this is that the 4 heads and 4 horns represent the 4 generals unless there was more to this.

[CWH]

well. The 7 heads of the beast in Revelation is similar to the 4 heads of Daniel's 3rd beast. What did the 4 heads represent? They were 4 generals who took control after Alexander's death right? But then what about the horns? Daniel's other vision of the goat and the ram mentions that. But what I'm confused about this is that the 4 heads and 4 horns represent the 4 generals unless there was more to this.

Hi gilgal.

Long time since we last discussed and I would be glad to work with you in understanding the scriptures. I don't think the 7 heads of the beast of Revelation is the same as the 4 heads in Daniel. The 4 heads of Daniel's 3rd beast I believe were the 4 empires--Babylonian, Med/Persian, Greek and Romans and the 4 horns were the 4 generals that represents the 4 divisions of the Greek Empire after the death of Alexander the Great. The ram and the goat were already explained in Daniel 8 to represent the Mede/Persian empire and the Greek empire respectively. I need more time to meditate further. Need to go now....will talk again later. BTW what makes you think the 7 heads of the beast in Revelation is similar to the 4 heads of Daniel's 3rd beast?

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

well. The 7 heads of the beast in Revelation is similar to the 4 heads of Daniel's 3rd beast. What did the 4 heads represent? They were 4 generals who took control after Alexander's death right? But then what about the horns? Daniel's other vision of the goat and the ram mentions that. But what I'm confused about this is that the 4 heads and 4 horns represent the 4 generals unless there was more to this.

Hi Gilgal,

The way I interpret Daniel 7 is that the 3rd beast represents the Greek empire, and the 4 heads were probably 4 generals. I don't find where the 3rd beast has 4 horns, only 4 heads.
.

Dan.7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard (3rd beast), which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
.

Here's a Link to a post I did comparing the 4 beasts of Daniel to the Beast of Revelation.


Rose

[CWH]

Hi gilgal,

I have read about Ken Raggio's alternative interpretations of the four great beasts of Daniel 7 online and it seems plausible:

http://kenraggio.com/KRPN-Four-Beasts-Of-Daniel.html

Just a long exercpt from his interpretations to answer your question. Although I don't believe in everything that was said but he certainly offers some insights:

Daniel's FIRST Beast
A Lion With Eagle's Wings

Daniel 7:4 - "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it."


Again, the million-dollar question is this: "Where is a modern empire symbolized by a lion?" Here is the answer: Great Britain. Now there have been many nations that have utilized the lion as a symbol. But in modern times, the lion is most clearly associated with Great Britain - the largest empire in modern times. In recent memory, it could be said that "the sun never sets on the British Empire." The British Lion is universally recognized. It has appeared on the Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom since King James VI of Scotland acceeded to the English throne in 1603. It also appears on several national emblems and flags. Another British symbol, lady "Britannia," is depicted riding the back of a lion. The lion symbol is depicted behind Britannia on the British fifty pence coin and a lion is shown crowned on the back of the British ten pence coin. A lion is also used as a symbol on the non-ceremonial flag of the British Army.

What about the eagle's wings that were plucked?

Again, there are few symbols more easily recognizable in the world today than the American Eagle. But how can the American Eagle be associated - connected with - the British Lion? That is an easy answer. The United States of America was originally a colonial territory of Great Britain. But IT WAS PLUCKED UP from the British Empire when the citizens of the thirteen original American colonies wrote and signed The Declaration of Independence in 1776, declaring their independence and BREAKING AWAY FROM the British Crown - King George III.

Herein is a most wonderful fulfillment of ancient Bible prophecies. TWO-THOUSAND FIVE-HUNDRED YEARS AGO, the prophet Daniel envisioned the Declaration of Independence, which any educated person knows is one of the most important documents ever written in the history of mankind. It was the founding document of what is arguably the greatest nation that ever existed! And Daniel saw it!

After the wings of the eagle were plucked from the British Lion, "it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it," Daniel 7:4. After 1776, and the rise of the United States of America, Britain became the largest empire in history.


Daniel's SECOND Beast
A Bear With Three Ribs In Its Mouth


Daniel 7:5 - "And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh."

Wikipedia says that 'the Russian Bear is a national personification for Russia, used in cartoons and articles at least since the 19th century, and relating alike to Tsarist Russia, the Soviet Union and the present post-Soviet Russia." It is often used by Westerners, especially Britain and the US, often with the connotation that Russia is "big, brutal and clumsy." Now, Russians themselves have taken up with the bear image. A bear named "Misha" was Russia’s mascot at the 1980 Moscow Olympic Games. A bear is the symbol of the United Russia Party, which is a major force in Russian politics. Coincidentally, the NAME of the President elected in 2008, Medvedev, is a form of a word meaning "bear."

So there is no doubt whatsoever. The bear, in modern times is universally known as RUSSIA.

But here is ANOTHER MAGNIFICENT CLUE that Russia is indeed the bear.

The bear raised itself up on one side and had three ribs in its mouth. THIS EVENT WAS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT EVENTS IN MODERN HISTORY. It was the meeting of the world’s three most powerful nations in YALTA – on the SOUTHERN-MOST SIDE of RUSSIA. Joseph Stalin, Czar of Russia, met with Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Britain, and Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States.

The Yalta Conference - 1945 - at the close of WWII

Here is what the prophecy said...

"…it raised up itself on one side, …and THEY SAID thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh," Daniel 7:5.

In order to bring World War 2 to a close, these three superpowers failed to liberate the nations that the Soviets had recently annexed in war. As a result, most of the Eastern Block countries became part of the Soviet Socialist Republics - eastern Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Albania and East Germany. The photo here shows the Russian Bear on April 30, 1945, as the Soviets stormed the German Reichstag Parliament building, hoisting the Hammer & Sickle over Berlin, Germany. (This is when Germany was divided – the deadly wound that would not heal.)

If THAT isn't "devouring much flesh," I cannot imagine what would be.

But it was actually worse than that.


The RUSSIAN BEAR devoured FAR MORE THAN EASTERN EUROPE, because Russia birthed a SOCIALIST WORLD GOVERNMENT that day. FDR had been unbelievably naive about Stalin's evil intentions, and did not believe Stalin would be so aggressive. Roosevelt's assistant, Alger Hiss, drafted the CHARTER for the UNITED NATIONS. The impetus for the UNITED NATIONS WAS BORN THAT DAY. The official logo of the UN was patterned after the RUSSIAN LOGO (see graphic).

But in the following months, Alger Hiss was accused and convicted of being a COMMUNIST RUSSIAN SPY. The plan and Charter for the United Nations was created by an agent for Joseph Stalin! In stark reality, the United Nations is a Socialist Global Government! The Communists not only devoured Eastern Europe after Yalta. They effectively devoured the world, by creating the United Nations. Time will soon tell just what a socialist tyranny is rising to power at the UN!

If you look at it close enough, you will conclude for yourself that the UNITED NATIONS is a socialist entity. It was created by Communists, and today is predominantly Socialist from top to bottom. Socialism DEVOURED THE WORLD with the birth of the UNITED NATIONS.


Daniel's THIRD Beast
A Four-headed Leopard With Wings of a Fowl

With the birth of the Holy Roman Empire, another prophetic picture began to take shape: the four-headed leopard with wings of a fowl (Daniel 7:6). No other country in history has been more prominently identified with a leopard than Germany. In the past century, the German leopard tanks played major roles in World War II. In all my thousands of hours of Bible research, I have never seen ANY other nation that is more accurately associated with the LEOPARD.

French Rooster

Amazingly, the symbol of France is a fowl—the rooster. The Holy Roman Empire can be recognized as a leopard with wings of a fowl – Germany and France, both being powerfully manipulated from Rome.

In 800 AD, Charlemagne was a strong Germanic leader. From there, he conducted empire over Europe. One of his leading accomplishments was the unification of France. Historians say that the Holy Roman Empire was the incubator for both modern Germany and modern France. The Franco-German Alliance is at the heart of the European Union to this day.

From Germany, Charlemagne birthed the empire. The prophecy said that the leopard had great dominion. Eventually, (from the 16th Century forward), the empire was called the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

Newsweek magazine, April 9, 1984 said, 'Since the time of Charlemagne, the area that is now Germany has been the pivot of European history. In the past 120 years, the Germans have dominated Europe; intellectually and militarily.'

'Reich' is the German word for kingdom. In all the history of the Holy Roman Empire, its parliament was known as the Reichstag. 'Reich' meaning 'empire' and '–stag' meaning 'assembly'. The modern nation of Germany is evolved from Charlemagne’s Reichstag. As far back as 919 AD, the Reichstag elected the first King of the Germans, and in 1871 became the parliament of the German Empire.


FOUR REICHS (4 heads)

Germany became the embodiment of the four-headed leopard. Germany has indeed had four heads – four Reichs, or kingdoms.

1. The First Reich. 800 to 1806 - This was the time of the Holy Roman Empire beginning with Charlemagne (picture). Most of its emperors were actually crowned by a pope.

2. The Second Reich. 1870 to 1919 - Began under the diplomatic statesmanship of Otto Von Bismarck, 'The IRON Chancellor.' From the unification of Germany following the Franco-Prussian War to the German defeat in the First World War. Bismarck attempted to stop Catholic political control of Germany, but failed.

Reichstag (Parliament)

3. The Third Reich. 1933-1945 Adolph Hitler’s Germany followed a brief interim called the Weimar Republic. Nazi Germany was defeated in WWII and divided into East and West Germany. Journalists of that era called it a 'deadly wound'. The deadly wound was healed when Mikhail Gorbachev ordered the wall torn down in 1989. It is the deadly wound that was healed in the prophecy of Revelation 13:3.

European Union

4. The Fourth Reich. 1951 to present – Germany (leopard) and France (fowl) sponsored the European Coal and Steel Community, which evolved into the present day European Union. The Euro is now the common currency, and Germany is still the dominating nation in the EU.

The ancient prophecy is fulfilled: great dominion was given to the leopard. The world will soon be dominated by the Fourth Reich: the European Union. Its population is larger than the United States’. Its currency is outperforming the American dollar on a regular basis. The oil producers of the world are talking about switching from dollars to euros. American politicians are beginning to realize what is happening. Rockwell Schnabel, former U.S. Ambassador to the E.U. wrote a book entitled, 'The Next Superpower.' In it, he stated that an '…EU bent on establishing itself as an alternative geopolitical 'pole' to the U.S. could undermine stability around the globe.'

Not coincidentally, on June 3rd, 2000, U.S. President Bill Clinton received the 50th Annual International Charlemagne Prize, which is given to the person who does the most to further the cause of European unity. World leaders know that the future of the globe lies in European politics.

The European Union is likely to fulfill many other Bible prophecies before the Second Coming, including the introduction of the Antichrist and the mark of the beast. The Bible prophesies that the center of world power will swing back to Europe.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi gilgal,

I have read about Ken Raggio's alternative interpretations of the four great beasts of Daniel 7 online and it seems plausible:

http://kenraggio.com/KRPN-Four-Beasts-Of-Daniel.html

Thanks for the link. Here is the "logic" that he used to arrive at his conclusion:

The Four Beasts of Daniel 7 - What they CANNOT represent.

The vast majority of all Bible commentaries and teaching material will tell you that the four beasts in Daniel's dream are the same four empires that are mentioned in Nebuchadnezzars statue: namely, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Most of these commentaries were written decades ago, if not centuries ago, long before modern events began to fulfill these prophecies. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE to identify these nations as we now can, as recently as one century ago!

What Daniel's Four Beasts CANNOT be...

Most so-called prophecy teachers will tell you that Daniel's beasts represent the same nations depicted in the great STATUE OF NEBUCHADNEZZAR.

They say that the
1. LION is ancient BABYLON
2. BEAR is ancient MEDO-PERSIA
3. LEOPARD is ancient GREECE
4. DREADFUL BEAST is ancient ROME

This interpretation cannot possibly be accurate, and here is why:

In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, each level of the great statue represented an empire. From one empire to the next, they were SUCCESSIVE empires - they followed one another. The Babylonian empire was conquered by Persia, which was conquered by Alexander the Great and the Grecians, which was conquered by Rome.

In the end of Nebuchadnezzar's imagery, ONLY the IRON AND CLAY FEET were crushed by a rock, symbolizing JESUS CHRIST at Armageddon. The first three empires had already passed from the scene.

But ALL FOUR of Daniel's four beasts are said to be in power - in existence - when Jesus returns!

These four beasts CANNOT be the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - as most Bible commentators and teachers assert. Here is why:

At Armageddon, Daniel saw that the OTHER THREE BEASTS "had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (7:12)"

It is perfectly clear that the fourth beast is a modern kingdom in power when Jesus comes, because the "little horn" on that beast, "made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom," Daniel 7:21-22.

So what does this show and prove?

It proves that Jesus Christ will NOT confront ancient Babylon, ancient Persia, ancient Greece, or ancient Rome at His coming.

He will confront EXISTING MODERN NATIONS at Armageddon.

These PROPHECIES absolutely MUST refer to MODERN NATIONS.

These nations will be stripped of their powers at Armageddon, yet they will continue to exist, "their lives were prolonged for a season and time." That could NOT be true if the LION is ancient Babylon, or if the BEAR is ancient Persia, or if the LEOPARD is ancient Greece, or if the DREADFUL BEAST is ancient Rome.

Therefore:

1. We must identify a MODERN nation that is symbolized by a LION.
2. We must identify a MODERN nation that is symbolized by an EAGLE.
3. We must identify a MODERN nation that is symbolized by a BEAR.
4. We must identify a MODERN nation that is symbolized by a LEOPARD.
5. We must find a MODERN GLOBAL government that fits the description of the DREADFUL BEAST.

We MUST look for these four beasts in modern times. The prophecies can only be true if these nations can be identified at the time of the coming of Jesus Christ for the battle of Armageddon.

All of the conclusions that he boldly declares "MUST" be the case follow from his private and peculiar interpretation of a single verse which states that the beasts of Daniel 7 "had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." The absurdity of his conclusion is immediately evident when we look at what happened when the stone struck the feet of the Image in Daniel 2:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The SCRIPTURE directly contradicts his primary assertion in which he said:

In the end of Nebuchadnezzar's imagery, ONLY the IRON AND CLAY FEET were crushed by a rock, symbolizing JESUS CHRIST at Armageddon. The first three empires had already passed from the scene.

In Daniel 2, the Word of God declares that ALL THE KINGDOMS represented by the Image were destroyed by the Stone cut without hands, and then confirms this fact by listing them all.

Ken Raggio's interpretation of these passages is a hermeneutical abomination. He built his entire futurist interpretation on an erroneous understanding of a single verse that directly contradicts the plain text of Holy Scripture. And then he went on to amplify his egregious error by repeating over and over again that his conclusion MUST MUST MUST follow, that he had PROVED IT and that there was no other possibility.

If this were an isolated case, then perhaps we could say that futurism was a legitimate alternative to understanding Biblical Eschatology. But no, this is not an isolated case. Errors like those of Ken Raggio are the fundamental characteristic of all futurism.

Thanks again for posting this Cheow. It really should help folks understand why the futurist system can not be accepted as a Biblical alternative.

Richard

[CWH]

Thanks RAM,

Actually I am responding to gilgal but it's ok for you to interject. We are just studying the 4 Great Beasts of Daniel and like keen researchers we are looking for alternative interpretations for insights into the scriptures and Ken Raggio did give us some plausible insights into the interpretations such as :

1) "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it."

2) "And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh."

3) "the four-headed leopard with wings of a fowl".

My question is, can preterism explain all these items highlighted in bold?

Many Blessings.