the ten horns

[gilgal]

Hey Cheow,

You missed my point! I specifically said Pompey the Great was the first powerful ruler of the Roman empire, and Julius Caesar was the first of the Caesars with his great nephew Augustus taking over the position of ruler when Julius was assassinated in 44BC. They were all rulers of the Roman empire....it matters not that they were all called Caesars since that is not specified in Daniel.

If one is to accept the 4th beast of Daniel as representative of the Roman empire then we only have a specific set of rulers to choose from, and the numbers seem to add up.

10 Roman rulers till Vespasian:

1. Pompey
2.Julius
3.Augustus
4.Tiberius
5.Caligula
6.Claudius
7.Nero

8.Galba
9.Otho
10.Vitellius

11. Vespasian



Rose

Who then is supposed to be the 11th horn which has eyes?

[gilgal]

Dan. 7:23-27 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth (Rome), which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them (Caesar Vespasian).; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings . And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

I see the “stout horn” of Daniel that rises out of the ten horns (kings) and subdues the three before him as referring to Emperor Vespasian. He fits perfectly with what actually happened in the last days before the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. After Nero fell in 68AD three other Caesars in succession took power (Galba, Otho, and Vittelius), but each were killed by members of the Roman army after a very short term in office (all were killed in between 68 and 69). The interesting part is that the top general in Nero’s army before he died was Vespasian, and Vespasian believed that he should have succeeded Nero as Caesar, so it is thought that he was behind the deaths of Galba, Otho, and Vittelius whose reign lasted a total of approximately 18 mo.. After their deaths Vespasian became Emperor and was responsible for the final siege of Jerusalem that was led by his son Titus, ending in its complete and utter destruction.

These actual historical facts fit in nicely with the vision of Daniel, and point directly to the 4th Beast being Rome, and the “stout horn” that rises up from the ten horns and subdues the three before him being symbolic of the Emperor Vespasian. Vespasian was the last Emperor to reign before the fall of Jerusalem, and most likely the one responsible for the deaths of the three Emperors before him.


Rose

Is there any old literature from the apostolic times on this 4th beast?
Iron teeth and bronze claws were the metals used in Daniel 2;
The horns were mentioned in Daniel 8;
(What I mean is the kingdoms weren't the same but the rulers seemed similar - Antiochus and the Anti-Christ)

But compared to Revelation 13 Daniel 7 gives no other description. Revelation 13 shows the Beast to be almost in the image of the Dragon from Revelation 12. Plus it has the mouth of the lion, feet of the bear and the body of the leopard. But Daniel doesn't describe those.

[Rose]

It's very clear from the interpretation given to Daniel, that the 4th Beast is the 4th kingdom upon the earth. If we begin with the Babylonian empire being the 1st because it was the ruling power when Daniel was given his vision, then there can be no doubt from historical evidence that the 4th kingdom in succession from Babylon was Rome.

.

Dan.7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

With that clearly established then all one needs to do is identify who the ruling kings were during the 4th kingdom, which I did in my previous post.

Rose

[gilgal]

It's very clear from the interpretation given to Daniel, that the 4th Beast is the 4th kingdom upon the earth. If we begin with the Babylonian empire being the 1st because it was the ruling power when Daniel was given his vision, then there can be no doubt from historical evidence that the 4th kingdom in succession from Babylon was Rome.

.

Dan.7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

With that clearly established then all one needs to do is identify who the ruling kings were during the 4th kingdom, which I did in my previous post.

Rose

Ok but wasn't there any historian like a Josephus (did he?) or any other who interpreted this prophecy?

[CWH]

Pompey was a great general and he did not ruled the Roman empire. In fact, Julius Caesar was the Caesar during Pompey's time. Julius Caesar was not considered the emperor of the Roman empire as he was not supported by the Senate. Augustus Caesar was the first Roman Emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey

The Western Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom was deemed as a continuous empire up to the modern times. It was followed by the Eastern Roman Empire which lasted till AD 1453. With the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire was started by Charlemagne and lasted till modern times in the 19th century. In fact, some say that it lasted with the Germans till 1945 with the defeat of Nazi Germany whose ambition was a United Europe. Curiously, during WW2, Europe was divided into 2, the Allies and the Axis, and post WW2, it was divided into the Western Europe and the Warsaw pact communist countries. See wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

This was what it meant by the 2 feet and 2 toes made of clay and iron, which represents the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (the 4th kingdom). Note that iron represents "Roman" and therefore the Holy Roman Empire and The Eastern Roman Empire. As Europe goes into the 20th century, it was divided into the Communist and non-Communist countries (not sure if this was represented by the 2 toes). Then comes the European Union which represents a United Europe of 27 nations (despite being united but "brittle" in the sense that they are not run by a united political group) including ex-communist nations (a Revived Roman Empire?). It's certainly interesting when you compare Daniel 2 with the history of Europe from the Roman Empire till the European Union.

Daniel 2: 40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

Both Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 speak of the 4th kingdom which we agree was the Roman empire. Out of that kingdom, which was the greatest earthly kingdom up to that time, came the Son of God who brought in the Kingdom of Heaven. Eventually the message of the Kingdom of Heaven brought down the Roman empire when it converted to Christianity....that was the vision of the mighty statue.

Jesus Christ "the Stone cut without hands" brought in the everlasting Kingdom of Heaven, by His message of salvation to all the mighty Roman empire bowed its knee to God, thus smashing its power. It matters not if the Roman empire continues on in some earthly form, because its purpose was served to be the empire out of which was born the greatest man who ever lived!
.

Dan.2:44-45 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Rose

[CWH]

I have expected Rose's response and my answer is at hand. At the same time, I would like readers to take notice of some strange issues:

Daniel 2:31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Dan.2:44-45 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

We all know that the "rock" mentioned is Jesus representing Chrisianity, but it struck the feet of iron and clay(verse 34). The feet is thought from my analysis to be the extension of the Roman Empire till modern times. And when the rock strikes, it starts first with the
:
1. feet of iron and clay
2. iron (Roman empire)
3. clay
4. bronze (Greek Empire)
5. silver (Mede-persian empire)
6. gold (Babylon empire)

Question 1: what does the feet of iron and clay(item1), and clay(item 3) stands for?
Question 2: Why strike the feet of iron and clay first, then the Roman Empire, then the clay, then the Greek, then the Mede-Persian, then the Babylonian?
Question 3: compare to verse 44-45, it says that it breaks the iron(Romans) first, then the bronze (Greek), then the clay(?), then the silver(Mede-Persian), then the gold (Babylonian). What is the clay?
Question 4: The rock should hit the gold(Babylonian) first, then silver (Mede=Persian), then clay (?), then the bronze ( Greek), then iron(Romans).

It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold


44 it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

Anyone care to answer the questions?

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

I have expected Rose's response and my answer is at hand. At the same time, I would like readers to take notice of some strange issues:

Daniel 2:31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Dan.2:44-45 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

We all know that the "rock" mentioned is Jesus representing Chrisianity, but it struck the feet of iron and clay(verse 34). The feet is thought from my analysis to be the extension of the Roman Empire till modern times. And when the rock strikes, it starts first with the
:
1. feet of iron and clay
2. iron (Roman empire)
3. clay
4. bronze (Greek Empire)
5. silver (Mede-persian empire)
6. gold (Babylon empire)

Question 1: what does the feet of iron and clay(item1), and clay(item 3) stands for?
Question 2: Why strike the feet of iron and clay first, then the Roman Empire, then the clay, then the Greek, then the Mede-Persian, then the Babylonian?
Question 3: compare to verse 44-45, it says that it breaks the iron(Romans) first, then the bronze (Greek), then the clay(?), then the silver(Mede-Persian), then the gold (Babylonian). What is the clay?
Question 4: The rock should hit the gold(Babylonian) first, then silver (Mede=Persian), then clay (?), then the bronze ( Greek), then iron(Romans).

It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold


44 it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

Anyone care to answer the questions?

Many Blessings.

Daniel 2:31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

In looking closely at the above verses, we can see that the answers to your questions are contained within the text itself. The "Stone cut without hands" smashes the statue on its feet causing the whole statue to be broken into pieces at the same time, then the smashed pieces become as chaff and are blown away in the wind.

The Stone that grew into a huge mountain and filled the whole earth is Jesus Christ. Jesus entered the world and won the victory over the kingdoms of this world, delivering them up to God....the message of that Good News has filled the whole earth!

Rose

[gilgal]

I have expected Rose's response and my answer is at hand. At the same time, I would like readers to take notice of some strange issues:

Daniel 2:31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Dan.2:44-45 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

We all know that the "rock" mentioned is Jesus representing Chrisianity, but it struck the feet of iron and clay(verse 34). The feet is thought from my analysis to be the extension of the Roman Empire till modern times. And when the rock strikes, it starts first with the
:
1. feet of iron and clay
2. iron (Roman empire)
3. clay
4. bronze (Greek Empire)
5. silver (Mede-persian empire)
6. gold (Babylon empire)

Question 1: what does the feet of iron and clay(item1), and clay(item 3) stands for?
Question 2: Why strike the feet of iron and clay first, then the Roman Empire, then the clay, then the Greek, then the Mede-Persian, then the Babylonian?
Question 3: compare to verse 44-45, it says that it breaks the iron(Romans) first, then the bronze (Greek), then the clay(?), then the silver(Mede-Persian), then the gold (Babylonian). What is the clay?
Question 4: The rock should hit the gold(Babylonian) first, then silver (Mede=Persian), then clay (?), then the bronze ( Greek), then iron(Romans).

It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold


44 it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

Anyone care to answer the questions?

Many Blessings.

The strange thing about the dream in chapter 2 is that the stone strikes all the metals at once. But when it strikes it leaves nothing.

Jesus' crucifixion may be a partial fulfillment so that the Roman Empire allowed the borders to open and the apostles spread the Gospel. Jesus was crucified on the mountain (I think it was on Mount Zion? Mount Moriah? But on a mountain). The dream said the stone cut from a mountain.

Coming back to the image destroyed all at once, could it be that the Gospel being spread throughout the world is the cause the image was destroyed all at once?

[CWH]

Iron teeth and bronze claws reminds me of tanks made of steel and the tanks roller gears do looks like iron teeth and the bullets or projectiles used are made from bronze or brass due to their better ballistic coefficiency.





Thanks both Rose and gilgal for their good observations and they are fairly right :

It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

This is my interpretation of the above verses:

The rock that struck the statue at its feet of iron and clay means that when Jesus came and strike, he will strike at the most vulnerable parts and that are the feet of iron and clay. Since iron and clay are brittle and not as strong as the iron, bronze, silver and gold, smashing the feet of iron and clay will collapsed the whole statue at the same time in one whole swoop. It's like demolishing a tall building, you destroy the supporting pillars on the ground floor and the whole building will crash down immediately. What it basically means is that when Jesus strikes "the feet made of iron and clay" it will destroy all the nations that were once part of the Roman, Greek, Mede-Persian and Babylonian empires and that would include present countries like Iran, Iraq, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Algeria, Sudan Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Arabia Greece, Europe on the whole etc. Therefore, the gist is to find out what is the feet made of iron and clay (EU? Arab League?). Many countries that currently exist in the Middle East are staunchly Muslim and will not allow Christianity or churches in their countries. Therefore, when Jesus come, these last remaining non-christianized countries will be destroyed and "erase from the map of the world" (like chaff on the threshing floor....the wind swept them away without leaving a trace) and Christianity (the huge mountain) will then be able to spread into these countries and ultimately complete the spread in the whole world.

Hope this helps.

Many Blessings