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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Abel's sacrifice of a lamb, which was more excellent than that of Cain, was accepted. Had Cain also sacrificed a lamb, he would have been accepted.
    I disagree here. A sacrifice offered without faith is an abomination. Cain lacked faith, so no sacrifice would have been accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    When Adam and Eve realised that they were naked, they took material from plants to cover their shame. God had to rectify the situation and slaughtered lambs so that the blood, which contains the innocent life of the lambs, might cover the sin in their spirits and that the skins of the animals may cover their bodies.
    Good point. I think there is a very deep parallel there with the offerings of Cain (plants) and Abel (lamb). Thanks for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Yes, I agree: Cain tried to please God with works. But the sacrifices were more than symbolic. They were meant to cover their sin. The life of plants do not cover sin. Had Abel not made the sacrifice, God would have destroyed him. Had the Israelites not sacrificed, God would have killed their first born sons and they would never have left Egypt.
    When you say that the sacrifices were "more than symbolic" what exactly are you trying to communicate? If not symbolic, then what? Are you saying the physical red liquid extracted from the dead animals somehow literally "covers" the "sin in their spirits"? I find that combination of physical and spiritual rather confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    The gospel is the good news that there is a way for us to be reconciled to God. The way was that the uniquely begotten Son of God would one day give His life to take away our sins, but that the blood of lambs would, in the mean time, cover our sins. Cain thought that the way was to sacrifice the first fruits of the land, by works and by beauty. That was another gospel.
    I think you have extrapolated beyond what the text says. Where did you get the idea that Cain's offering had anything to do with "beauty." Myself, I am very uncomfortable asserting anything about the Bible as "true" if it can not be clearly derived from the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Even if a gospel does not teach that Christians must obey Jewish law, it can still be another.
    True. It certainly could be "another" gospel. But we are not here concerned about every possible "other gospel. We are seeking to answer the question of what Paul meant by the "other gospel" in the book of Galatians. I grant that it could have many other applications not explicitly intended by Paul, but that is a different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Here are some examples of other gospels:
    1. Ministers must not marry (1Ti 4:1-3)
    2. Women may preach the gospel (1Co 14:34-38; 1Ti 2:11-15)
    3. We do not have to attend church services (Heb 10:25)
    Geoffrey
    Now there's some good grist for the mills of other threads! I am glad you tossed them out. If you want to pursue them, feel free to begin your own thread.

    Nice chatting, and God bless!

    Richard

  2. #42
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    Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Any "gospel" that is presented to us which is contrary to the truths contained in Paul's gospel is a perversion, and a twisting of the truth.
    That's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    All other fleshly rites were discarded, including baptism, because it voided the "word of the cross".
    Paul never discarded baptism; on the contrary, he insisted on the correct baptism.

    Acts 19:1-7And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (7) And all the men were about twelve.

    Being baptised in water does not save anyone. We are saved by the faith of the Son of God. Yet, baptism is an integral part of the gospel.

    Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


    Acts 2:37-41Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added untothem about three thousand souls.


    Mark 16:14-20 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


    1 Peter 3:20-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
    Last edited by Geoffrey; 07-19-2007 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    True. It certainly could be "another" gospel. But we are not here concerned about every possible "other gospel. We are seeking to answer the question of what Paul meant by the "other gospel" in the book of Galatians. I grant that it could have many other applications not explicitly intended by Paul, but that is a different issue.
    OK, Richard, I see what you mean. I agree: the other gospel Paul mentions in Galatians refers specifically to keeping the Jewish law as can be read throughout the epistle.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I disagree here. A sacrifice offered without faith is an abomination. Cain lacked faith, so no sacrifice would have been accepted.
    Yes. So, if he had faith and made the correct sacrifice he would have been accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    When you say that the sacrifices were "more than symbolic" what exactly are you trying to communicate? If not symbolic, then what? Are you saying the physical red liquid extracted from the dead animals somehow literally "covers" the "sin in their spirits"? I find that combination of physical and spiritual rather confusing.
    The sacrifices had intrinsic value. The blood is the carrier of the life of the body.

    Leviticus 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    When the blood of the lamb was shed, the life, which is spirit, left it and was a covering (religion) for the sins of the soul. The innocent spirit of the lamb covered the guilty soul of the sinner so that God does not see it and destroy it. Yet, the blood of animals could not take away the sin.

    Hebrews 10:3-4 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    When the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ was shed, our sins were washed away and remembered no more and the life or nature that was in Christ came upon us. The life of an animal could not come upon a man.

    Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Notice:"Christ liveth in me."

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I think you have extrapolated beyond what the text says. Where did you get the idea that Cain's offering had anything to do with "beauty." Myself, I am very uncomfortable asserting anything about the Bible as "true" if it can not be clearly derived from the Bible.
    Cain's altar, covered with fruits and vegetables would certainly have been more beatiful than an altar covered with blood. John said:

    1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    Cain was of the devil and had the nature of his father. What was the nature of his father?

    Ezekiel 28:17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

    In contrast, when we look at the true sacrifice:

    Isaiah 53:2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Now there's some good grist for the mills of other threads! I am glad you tossed them out. If you want to pursue them, feel free to begin your own thread.

    Nice chatting, and God bless!
    Thanks.

    Geoffrey
    Last edited by Geoffrey; 07-19-2007 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    OK, Richard, I see what you mean. I agree: the other gospel Paul mentions in Galatians refers specifically to keeping the Jewish law as can be read throughout the epistle.
    Excellent! That's what I love about talking with folks like you. A simple admission of the truth we mutually seek. I pray I will always be able to live up to that example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Yes. So, if he had faith and made the correct sacrifice he would have been accepted.
    Yes indeed! Faith is the Key to the Gospel, which began in Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed in the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    The sacrifices had intrinsic value. The blood is the carrier of the life of the body.
    Leviticus 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
    When the blood of the lamb was shed, the life, which is spirit, left it and was a covering (religion) for the sins of the soul. The innocent spirit of the lamb covered the guilty soul of the sinner so that God does not see it and destroy it. Yet, the blood of animals could not take away the sin.
    First, Lev 17:11 is one of the most significant verses in the Bible, as it explains the meaning of the Blood of Christ. But to suggest that the blood of the animals could literally "cover" sin makes no sense to me. The idea that anything like an animals spirit could "cover" sin so that God literally "could not see it" seems very problematic, given God's omniscience and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    When the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ was shed, our sins were washed away and remembered no more and the life or nature that was in Christ came upon us. The life of an animal could not come upon a man.

    Again, I have trouble forming these literal interpretations in my mind. The term "blood of Christ" is a metaphor for His death, in which He bore the judgment of God in our place. We partake of His life when we enter into Him through faith. Thus we are in Him, and He is in us. We share His life.

    To suggest that His Blood literally "washed" away our sins like some kind of detergent just doesn't make sense to me. It is so "literal" it doesn't feel "real", if you get my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Notice:"Christ liveth in me."
    Yes indeed! That is the way I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey View Post
    Cain's altar, covered with fruits and vegetables would certainly have been more beatiful than an altar covered with blood.
    Yes, that is true, and I understand how you came to your conclusion. But we still do not know if "beauty" had anything to do with Cain's sacrifice. And that was my only point; it seemed like you were stating something as a Biblical fact, when in it could actually be proven to be a fact. I'm a real stickler on points like that. That's all I meant.

    Richard

  5. #45
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    ???

    Joel

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    ???

    Joel
    Amen!

    Since Geoffrey agreed with our consensus on what Paul meant by the "other gospel" in Galatians, we can move on.



    Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    This is an exceedingly important passage because explains the fundamental error of those who think we need to do things like keep the Sabbath and the dietary laws and all that. Paul is reminding us that our salvation was entirely a work of God's Spirit through Faith, and had NOTHING to do with works of the law which he identifies here with the works of the flesh.

    This is truly a great passage.

    Comments?

    Richard

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Amen!

    Since Geoffrey agreed with our consensus on what Paul meant by the "other gospel" in Galatians, we can move on.


    Quote:
    Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    This is an exceedingly important passage because explains the fundamental error of those who think we need to do things like keep the Sabbath and the dietary laws and all that. Paul is reminding us that our salvation was entirely a work of God's Spirit through Faith, and had NOTHING to do with works of the law which he identifies here with the works of the flesh.

    This is truly a great passage.

    Comments?

    Richard
    I suggest, at this point, that Paul is expanding his argument in favor of "justification by faith, and not out of works of law" to include the on-going life of faith.

    The initial "justification" is the same for all believers. Even though Paul has not stated it in this manner in his Galatian letter, he has done so previously in Romans...........justification comes only by faith in the blood of Christ. In the proclamation of the gospel, this spiritual fact (being a foundation truth) cannot be diluted by any "act" of the flesh.

    In this section of Paul's letter, he interjects the truth of what actually happened to each of us when we believed in the justifying blood of Christ......we received the Spirit.

    Our justification resulted in the reception of a wondrous gift; God imparted His Spirit into us.

    When Jesus was graphically depicted as being crucified, and the focus of the evangel is on Him alone, no "works of the law" could be held up by us so that we could "receive......the Spirit". It happened by and through faith. It is true. God's spirit resides in us.

    And, the Spirit was imparted by "the hearing of faith".

    Since the beginning of our faith was due to the Spirit's revelation to us of the blood of Christ, and that nothing related to our flesh has any place whatsoever in the process, how can we now conclude that our continuance in the life of faith can be related to the flesh?

    We began "in the Spirit", and, we will be brought to a suitable conclusion "in the Spirit".

    When "circumcision" was introduced to the Galatians, Paul had to first review the process of our initial "justification". The Galatians were believers, just like us. And he had to take them back to an essential foundational element of the gospel; justification by faith (in His blood).

    Now, in chapter 3, he reminds them of the indwelling Spirit. No outward rite/ritual (circumcision, etc.) can be instrumental in our continued journey in the faith as to helping us reach the goal of the "high calling in Christ Jesus".

    The gift of the Spirit is an essential foundation truth of the gospel which is the result of the belief in the truth of the blood of Lamb which takes away the sins of the world.

    Joel

  8. #48
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    Can we take off again? (assuming we are "in formation")

    Joel

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Can we take off again? (assuming we are "in formation")

    Joel
    Formation? Yeah, I'd say we're in formation!




    Nice flying Joel!

    Moving on ... There are a couple verses I left hanging that should have been included in the last post:

    Galatians 3:4-5 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    I don't think any comment is needed, but this passage should be memorized since it makes the vanity of trying to "perfect" our walk of faith through fleshly works totally obvious.

    Moving on ...



    Galatians 3:6-9 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    Scripture foresaw and and Scripture preached the Gospels unto Abraham! Verbs are applied to Scripture as if it were alive! I love it! Galatians is da book for me!

    Note also that THE GOSPEL was preached to Abraha, BEFORE the Law was given, so we have a confirmation of our earlier conclusion that the OTHER gospel was the lie that we are supposed to follow Jewish traditions and laws.

    The simplicity and consistency of Scripture never ceases to amaze me. The Gospel is perfect.

    Praise God!

    Richard

  10. #50
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    The simplicity and consistency of Scripture never ceases to amaze me. The Gospel is perfect.

    Praise God!

    Richard
    --------------------------

    Amen!

    (Richard, I had a difficult enough time trying to get my pilots in formation, and you get them to do acrobatics!.........which of us was inverted?........you don't have to answer that.....)

    Geoffrey, please "re-join" us......this flying in formation is great.

    Joel

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