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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Why begin the count at 586BC ?

    From the going forth of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalam..until Messiah, would be 69 weeks (483 years). Messiah would then fulfill the decree to atone for sin etc in the 70th week.
    Looking back, the most likely decree was given in 457 BC .....

    + 483 = 26 AD, the year Jesus was identified as Messiah (by his prophecied forerunner), at his baptism and began his ministry to fulfill the decree to atone for the sins of the world. At the end of it Jesus said "it is finished" and he rose victorious .
    It is not written "decree", but "word",

    Daniel 9:25,
    וְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר, לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם , "vateida v'tashkiel min-motsa davar l'hashiv v'livnot Yerushalayim"

    Prof Ben-Tziyyon:
    The fallacy in the christian argument is that they mistranslate verse 25 "from the emergence of the 'word' about returning and rebuilding Y'rushalayim" and ignore − or overlook − the obvious connection between that verse and verse 23 , "at the beginning of your prayers, a 'word' emerged". Daniyyél specifically mentions in 6:11 (misnumbered verse 10 in christian "versions") that he prayed regularly three times every day.
    v.23:
    בִּתְחִלַּת תַּחֲנוּנֶיךָ יָצָא דָבָר "b't'chillat tachchuneicha yatsa davar"


    How you come to the year 457 BC?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It is not written "decree", but "word",
    Where does that "word" to rebuild come from?
    Seeing as they are in captivity, the ruling authority (persia) would issue permission to return.

    Persia under different kings issued permissions/decrees, to the Jews to return and performs various tasks.

    At the end of one of these "words" Messiah would arrive.......and the most likely (in hindsight) would have been the one issued in 457BC...IMO

    Did Messiah arrive 483 years after Cyrus "word" to them.....= no.
    Did Messiah arrive 483 years after Artaxerxes "word to them in 457 BC...= yes, something significant did happen around that time.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Where does that "word" to rebuild come from?
    Daniel 9:23-24,
    23. In the beginning of your supplications, a word emerged, and I have come to tell it, for you have desirable qualities; now contemplate the word and understand the vision.
    24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
    25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times
    "the beginning of your supplications"
    likely the year of the destruction of the first Temple

    After Daniel 6:11,
    And Daniel, when he knew that a writ had been inscribed, came to his house, where there were open windows in his upper chamber, opposite Jerusalem, and three times a day he kneeled on his knees and prayed and offered thanks before his God just as he had done prior to this..



    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Seeing as they are in captivity, the ruling authority (persia) would issue permission to return.
    Wasn't God in charge?

    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Persia under different kings issued permissions/decrees, to the Jews to return and performs various tasks.
    It was about a word, not a decree.

    Hebrew "davar".
    You wouldn't translate John 1:1 with "In the beginning was the decree"? , do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    At the end of one of these "words" Messiah would arrive.......
    v. 25 speaks of מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד, "mashiach nagid", an anointed prince. Probably Cyrus is meant.

    Rashi:
    Time will be given from the day of the destruction until the coming of Cyrus, king of Persia, about whom the Holy One, blessed be He, said that he would return and build His city, and He called him His anointed and His king, as it says (Isa. 45:1): “So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus etc.” (verse 13): “He shall build My city and free My exiles, etc.”
    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    and the most likely (in hindsight) would have been the one issued in 457BC...IMO
    Which one, where to be found?

    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Did Messiah arrive 483 years after Cyrus "word" to them.....= no.
    Did Messiah arrive 483 years after Artaxerxes "word to them in 457 BC...= yes, something significant did happen around that time.
    v. 26 speaks of "an anointed one" -
    Rashi says:
    Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.
    But I don't think that's right.

    Daniel was probably written in the time of Antiochus !V, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem already having taken place (described in 1 Maccabees 1)
    The annointed one being the High-Priest Onias III.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    I agree.
    70 weeks were all about Messiahs redemption at the cross and the ascension.
    The destruction of temple and exile was all about them not believing in that fact.
    How else does one explain a prophecy that begins with a promise of restoration and rebuilding, a forgiveness of sins and everlasting righteousness etc, yet ends with their destruction of the sanctuary and the city.
    Hello weeder. I'm glad we've got something in common.

    The final week (70t week) began at the Baptism of Jesus in 28AD, and ended 3.5 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. This is when they stoned Stephen. Some would rather point the end of the 70th week when Paul shook the dust off of his feet, and took the message to the Gentiles. I of course believe the end of the 70th week happened when Stephen was stoned. 40 years after this, comes the destruction of the temple.

    Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week; this was the "Confirmation" of the covenant. The confirmation of the covenant continued with the Apostles, and the gifts from the Holy Spirit being shown to all throughout Israel. Jesus told the Apostles, "You shall not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes". This of course happened near 70AD, when the Son of Man came in judgment upon the House of God; those who were "sealed" from the 12 Tribes of Israel (Revelation) were spared/delivered/saved from this destruction; those who were not sealed were left to be "gathered where the eagles are".

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hello weeder. I'm glad we've got something in common.

    The final week (70t week) began at the Baptism of Jesus in 28AD, and ended 3.5 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. This is when they stoned Stephen. Some would rather point the end of the 70th week when Paul shook the dust off of his feet, and took the message to the Gentiles. I of course believe the end of the 70th week happened when Stephen was stoned. 40 years after this, comes the destruction of the temple.

    Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week; this was the "Confirmation" of the covenant. The confirmation of the covenant continued with the Apostles, and the gifts from the Holy Spirit being shown to all throughout Israel. Jesus told the Apostles, "You shall not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes". This of course happened near 70AD, when the Son of Man came in judgment upon the House of God; those who were "sealed" from the 12 Tribes of Israel (Revelation) were spared/delivered/saved from this destruction; those who were not sealed were left to be "gathered where the eagles are".

    Joe
    Can you also back up your claims?
    Last edited by sylvius; 08-09-2012 at 03:40 AM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It is not written "decree", but "word",

    Daniel 9:25,
    וְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר, לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם , "vateida v'tashkiel min-motsa davar l'hashiv v'livnot Yerushalayim"

    Prof Ben-Tziyyon:
    The fallacy in the christian argument is that they mistranslate verse 25 "from the emergence of the 'word' about returning and rebuilding Y'rushalayim" and ignore − or overlook − the obvious connection between that verse and verse 23 , "at the beginning of your prayers, a 'word' emerged". Daniyyél specifically mentions in 6:11 (misnumbered verse 10 in christian "versions") that he prayed regularly three times every day.
    v.23:
    בִּתְחִלַּת תַּחֲנוּנֶיךָ יָצָא דָבָר "b't'chillat tachchuneicha yatsa davar"


    How you come to the year 457 BC?
    The word "devar" can have many meanings. The phrase yetzey devar is translated as "edict be issued" in Esther 1:19 in the Tanakh:
    TNK Esther 1:19 "If it please Your Majesty, let a royal edict be issued by you, and let it be written into the laws of Persia and Media, so that it cannot be abrogated, that Vashti shall never enter the presence of King Ahasuerus. And let Your Majesty bestow her royal state upon another who is more worthy than she.
    And Rashi agrees with this interpretation.

    Rashi's comment on this verse:
    a royal edict: a royal edict of revenge, i.e., that he commanded to execute her.
    and let it be inscribed in the laws of Persia and Media: in the books of the statutes and the customs of the kingdom.
    and let it not be revoked: this statute from among them; this should be a statute and a law for anyone who shows contempt for her husband.
    that Vashti did not come: and therefore, she was executed.
    So now your "experts" are disagreeing with themselves.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It was about a word, not a decree.

    Hebrew "davar".
    You wouldn't translate John 1:1 with "In the beginning was the decree"? , do you?
    This reveals a complete failure to understand that the meaning of words depends on context. As a verb, it can be translated as to speak, declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing, etc depending on context. As a noun, it can be translated as word, speaking, speech, thing, etc. It is frequently translated as "thing." If you don't understand this, how can you understand anything in the Bible?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    This reveals a complete failure to understand that the meaning of words depends on context. As a verb, it can be translated as to speak, declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing, etc depending on context. As a noun, it can be translated as word, speaking, speech, thing, etc. It is frequently translated as "thing." If you don't understand this, how can you understand anything in the Bible?
    the "davar"of Daniel 9:25 clearly refers to the "davar"of v.23.

    v. 23,
    בִּתְחִלַּת תַּחֲנוּנֶיךָ יָצָא דָבָר
    "b't'chillat tachuneicha yatsa davar"
    v.25,
    וְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר
    "v'teida v'tashkeil min-hamotsa davar"

    So why translate it in v.23 with "word" and in v. 25 with "decree"?
    Only to make it fit in your agenda.


    If was meant "decree", what decree , and where to be found?

    That was my question.

    ('Edict" is not the same as "decree" - and "edict" in Esther 1:19 and in Rashi's commentary thereon are translations).
    Last edited by sylvius; 08-09-2012 at 10:29 PM.

  9. #189
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    According to my former (late) teacher "davar" , both in v.23 (2x) and v.25, refers to Jeremiah 30:18 and 31:38v.

    Very likely, since Daniel 9:2 says,
    In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of the years that the word of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, since the destruction of Jerusalem seventy years.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    [/INDENT]"the beginning of your supplications"
    likely the year of the destruction of the first Temple
    No.
    The text says that Daniel read from Jeremiah, and realised that the 70 years was just about up. (Dan 9---) Daniel then made his supplications to the Lord, anticipating an end to the captivity and a new thing.



    The annointed one being the High-Priest Onias III
    Is that even possible sylvius?
    What did onias 3 do that atoned for sin, and dealt with iniquity..... and bought everlasting righteous, and annointed the holy place etc?

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