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  • The Love of Knowledge: A Fundamental Contradiction in the Heart of the Bible

    The Bible begins by saying that all the trouble in the world was caused by Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was the only thing God denied them. But then the rest of the entire Bible exhorts people to do everything in their power to gain knowledge of good and evil! It exalts wisdom and knowledge as one of the highest goals every person should strive for.
    Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel: 2 To know wisdom and instruction, To discern the sayings of understanding, 3 To receive instruction in wise behavior, Righteousness, justice and equity; 4 To give prudence to the naive, To the youth knowledge and discretion, 5 A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,

    Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding. 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity, 8 Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones. 9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice And equity and every good course. 10 For wisdom will enter your heart, And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; 11 Discretion will guard you, Understanding will watch over you,

    Proverbs 8:7 "For my mouth will utter truth; And wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 "All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverted in them. 9 "They are all straightforward to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. 10 "Take my instruction, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choicest gold. 11 "For wisdom is better than jewels; And all desirable things can not compare with her. 12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And I find knowledge and discretion.
    And when Solomon became king, he asked God for a blessing:
    1 Kings 3:7 "And now, O LORD my God, Thou hast made Thy servant king in place of my father David, yet I am but a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8 "And Thy servant is in the midst of Thy people which Thou hast chosen, a great people who cannot be numbered or counted for multitude. 9 "So give Thy servant an understanding heart to judge Thy people to discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Thine?" 10 And it was pleasing in the sight of the Lord that Solomon had asked this thing.
    God was pleased that Solomon asked for the ability to discern between good and evil. He answered Solomon's prayer so that Solomon became the wisest king ever to live. Obviously, knowledge of good and evil is one of the highest values. We see this value also exalted in the New Testament:
    Hebrews 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
    This concept reaches its apotheosis in Jesus Christ, the Word of God "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3).

    The story of the fall of Adam and Eve looks very strange in this context:
    Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
    So we have a very strange contradiction at the very inception of the entire Biblical narrative. That which was forbidden and which caused all the problems in the world becomes the very highest of values!

    This is another example of the curious absence of any references to the "mythological chapters" of Genesis in the rest of the Old Testament. The story of Adam and Eve is never mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament outside of the Garden story (Genesis 2-3). Indeed, it seems that the writers of the Old Testament were completely ignorant of the ten chapters of Genesis 2-11. I discussed this in my recent article Where's Adam? The Mystery of the Missing Mythological Chapters of Genesis.
    Comments 42 Comments
    1. duxrow's Avatar
      duxrow -
      Was imaginating Adam waking up as Tom Hanks seeing Ann-Margaret -- perfect 10 ?
    1. Greg's Avatar
      Greg -
      Where does the bible promise it is perfect? Did Yahshua follow every religious writing of his day?

      Like the earth, it seems to me that the bible is filled with some words that promote life and others that promote death when consumed. Consider Isaiah 45:7. When you walk through another man's farm, do you eat everything you see?

      I think the lesson of the apple is that Adam and Eve did not exercise the virtue of patiently waiting for the right spacetime to receive the apple as a gift. They chose to forego the law & order presented to them, and their decision received a consequence - a saga of human history filled with both knowledge and hardship. What have we learned so far? http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/Logi...kepticism.html

      I'm sure this thought I've written here is incomplete but perhaps the reasoning will resonate with you as well.
    1. David M's Avatar
      David M -
      The title of this thread is evocative in that it deliberately sets out to claim the Bible is contradictory. The verses quoted do not prove the point at all and it is back to interpretation as to the way we understand what is being said. To set the record straight and provide the counter argument, I state that the Bible is not contradictory on the subject of knowledge.

      The title of this blog thread begins; "The Love of knowledge..." This is similar to the "Love of money is the root of all evil". It is not "money" and it is not "knowledge" that is evil; it is the "love of...." that is evil. We have to be careful not to love the wrong things and not to love the wrong type of knowledge. It is not knowledge per se that is evil, it is the type of knowledge that can be evil, so it is up to us to decide what sort of knowledge we want to obtain; good knowledge or evil knowledge.

      It is an assumption that God "denied" Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil. The Bible does not say God denied them or denied them indefinitely. The essence of this simple story is that Adam and Eve failed the test God set them. We must think about what is not said as much as what is said. We do not know if the fruit of the 'tree of life' or the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil' had any such properties. For test purposes they could have been labelled 'A' and 'B'. Without the test, if Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how do we know what knowledge (if any) the fruit would give them? I suggest there was nothing in the fruit that could give any knowledge.

      The knowledge of evil was learned in the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit. It was then they learned what disobedience meant, and disobedience to God is evil. Conversely, if they had obeyed God, they would have learned obedience. If we want to be wise and apply the knowledge gained from this story of Adam and Eve, we ought to be obedient to God's instruction. Not to be obedient to God's instruction is foolishness. Once you have been told what God requires of you, it is foolishness to reject God's ways, unless you do not want the gift of life God is offering you. Jesus showed us it was possible to do what God asks and Jesus never once failed to do God's will.

      The Bible is full of examples of people who were wise and people who were foolish and we have the advantage of being able to learn from other people's mistakes instead of committing the mistakes ourselves.

      God has given us all the instruction we need to know for our salvation. God is offering us eternal life and that is a priceless gift; do you want to pass it up? If not, then we need to read the Bible and find out what we have to do. It is this knowledge that we should get and then be obedient to God's will.

      As an example, the Children of Israel (God's chosen race) the descendants of Abraham through whom God made promises, to Israel, God gave them his instructions. His chosen race should have been a good example as custodians of God's laws. However, the Israelites were not any better than anyone else. They were fickle and they were easily lead and mislead according to whether their kings feared God or not. Anyway, God's people should have known better, but they failed to live up to God's laws. They failed because they forgot to read his laws and remember them. It is the same as if we do not read the Bible. How can we come to know God and His plan and purpose with this earth if we do not read it and come to a knowledge of it and understand it? That is what happened to Israel, they put the law of God away and forgot about it. Then God said of them; (Hosea 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,

      If we are wise, we will not put away God's word or reject it. I warn you against people who deliberately, or through lack of their own knowledge, say that God's word is not true,or that it is contradictory. I urge you, if you have not already read the Bible, to read the Bible; find the truth of God's word and believe it and want the gift of eternal life that God is offering. Don't destroy yourself through lack of knowledge of God's word.

      David
    1. Richard Amiel McGough's Avatar
      Richard Amiel McGough -
      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      The title of this thread is evocative in that it deliberately sets out to claim the Bible is contradictory. The verses quoted do not prove the point at all and it is back to interpretation as to the way we understand what is being said. To set the record straight and provide the counter argument, I state that the Bible is not contradictory on the subject of knowledge.

      The title of this blog thread begins; "The Love of knowledge..." This is similar to the "Love of money is the root of all evil". It is not "money" and it is not "knowledge" that is evil; it is the "love of...." that is evil. We have to be careful not to love the wrong things and not to love the wrong type of knowledge. It is not knowledge per se that is evil, it is the type of knowledge that can be evil, so it is up to us to decide what sort of knowledge we want to obtain; good knowledge or evil knowledge.
      I chose the title not because it is "provocative" but because it states what I believe. The interpretation you suggested does not solve the contradiction as far as I can tell. You wrote many words, but they simply did not address the point I was trying to make.

      The "type of knowledge" is defined by the story as the "knowledge of good and evil." This is the type of knowledge that is extolled throughout the rest of the Bible, as when Solomon prayed "So give Thy servant an understanding heart to judge Thy people to discern between good and evil." And again, when Wisdom personified calls all to love her. The love of wisdom and knowledge is taught throughout the Bible, except in Genesis 3 where it is presented as the cause of all the evil in the world.

      There is no mention of "good knowledge" vs. "evil knowledge." The closest to something like that would probably be the "false knowledge" mentioned by Paul when he told Timothy to avoid "worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge" (1 Timothy 6:20). But that has nothing to do with the story of the Fall. Your "interpretation" is really just a speculative invention.

      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      It is an assumption that God "denied" Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil. The Bible does not say God denied them or denied them indefinitely. The essence of this simple story is that Adam and Eve failed the test God set them. We must think about what is not said as much as what is said. We do not know if the fruit of the 'tree of life' or the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil' had any such properties. For test purposes they could have been labelled 'A' and 'B'. Without the test, if Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how do we know what knowledge (if any) the fruit would give them? I suggest there was nothing in the fruit that could give any knowledge.
      I agree that the Bible does not say that God "denied them or denied them indefinitely" but neither does it say that he did not. Therefore, the point is moot.

      I agree that there is "nothing in [any] fruit that could give any knowledge." But that's not what the story says. Your suggestion that it would have given them a different kind of knowledge if God had not prohibited them from eating is just another speculation. We know the "kind of knowledge" that was given by eating the fruit because the Bible presents God as saying "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." It was the kind of knowledge that God alone possesses. Gaining it made them "like God." That's why God kicked them out.

      Your suggestion that the prohibition of eating from the tree was a mere "test" is another speculation nowhere stated in the Bible. Where did you get that idea? Even if it were a test, it would not have sufficed to call merely label the two treas "A" and "B" because the trees qualities associated with the trees play a central role in the story. Adam and Eve became "like God, knowing good and evil" (Tree A) and were kicked out to prevent them from eating from the tree of life (Tree B). It is, therefore, simply false to reduce the story to a mere "test" between two arbitrary options A and B.

      This is why your "alternate interpretation" is not a viable choice. I simply refuse to make up stuff and call it a "solution."
      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      The knowledge of evil was learned in the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit. It was then they learned what disobedience meant, and disobedience to God is evil. Conversely, if they had obeyed God, they would have learned obedience. If we want to be wise and apply the knowledge gained from this story of Adam and Eve, we ought to be obedient to God's instruction. Not to be obedient to God's instruction is foolishness. Once you have been told what God requires of you, it is foolishness to reject God's ways, unless you do not want the gift of life God is offering you. Jesus showed us it was possible to do what God asks and Jesus never once failed to do God's will.
      That makes no sense. If they didn't know the meaning of "disobedience" they couldn't have known it was wrong and so it would have been unjust for God to punish them for it. And besides, what's the big deal with "obedience"? Why is that such a great value? What does God demand it? It is the mark of a religious system designed to control the citizens of Israel. That's why God is modeled on a human king who demands worship and obedience. Such things have no value in and of themselves.

      Your opinions about Jesus are entirely different than the vast majority of Christians who have lived throughout history. You deny his divinity. Now you tell me that God is "offering" me a "gift of life." Why should I believe you over all the other Christians with their own opinions? How is anyone supposed to discern the truth? This returns us to the contradiction that you did not address. The Bible says that it is good to get wisdom and knowledge. But the Bible also says that all sin was caused by Eve's desire for the tree which God himself carefully designed so Eve would see that it was "good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise." This is a tremendous contradiction, and you have not addressed it. You wrote many words, but you didn't actually try to understand why I said what I said. You need to try to understand why I said what I said, and then answer that.

      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      The Bible is full of examples of people who were wise and people who were foolish and we have the advantage of being able to learn from other people's mistakes instead of committing the mistakes ourselves.
      So what? I don't understand how that addresses the contradiction.

      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      God has given us all the instruction we need to know for our salvation. God is offering us eternal life and that is a priceless gift; do you want to pass it up? If not, then we need to read the Bible and find out what we have to do. It is this knowledge that we should get and then be obedient to God's will.
      Why would anyone want eternal life if the condition is that I must merely say I believe things I don't believe and that have no proof? If God is really like that, maybe it would be better if I just went into an eternal sleep. (Which, by the way, is another one of your doctrines that differs fundamentally from the traditional Christian beliefs.)

      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      As an example, the Children of Israel (God's chosen race) the descendants of Abraham through whom God made promises, to Israel, God gave them his instructions. His chosen race should have been a good example as custodians of God's laws. However, the Israelites were not any better than anyone else. They were fickle and they were easily lead and mislead according to whether their kings feared God or not. Anyway, God's people should have known better, but they failed to live up to God's laws. They failed because they forgot to read his laws and remember them. It is the same as if we do not read the Bible. How can we come to know God and His plan and purpose with this earth if we do not read it and come to a knowledge of it and understand it? That is what happened to Israel, they put the law of God away and forgot about it. Then God said of them; (Hosea 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,
      God's laws were horrific. Bloody sacrifices all day. Inequality for women. Murdering all your neighbors and stealing their land (except for the 32,000 virgins who were distributed to the soldiers, Numbers 31). Etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
      If we are wise, we will not put away God's word or reject it. I warn you against people who deliberately, or through lack of their own knowledge, say that God's word is not true,or that it is contradictory. I urge you, if you have not already read the Bible, to read the Bible; find the truth of God's word and believe it and want the gift of eternal life that God is offering. Don't destroy yourself through lack of knowledge of God's word.

      David
      If were are wise, we will find the knowledge to discern between truth and falsehood. As it is, there is nothing that proves the Bible is true. Yet you adamantly assert it is true, without proof of any kind. That's not wise.

      All the best,

      Richard
    1. David M's Avatar
      David M -
      Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post

      If were are wise, we will find the knowledge to discern between truth and falsehood. As it is, there is nothing that proves the Bible is true. Yet you adamantly assert it is true, without proof of any kind. That's not wise.
      Thank you Richard, we have both expressed our opinion, so there is nothing more to say on the topic. I do object to your last statement which I have highlighted in red. There is plenty that proves the Bible is true on a many subjects, which have been covered in the forum. It is an exaggeration to say "there is nothing". It is not my intention to give proof in every post of statements I make. The fact that you do not accept other people's opinion does not make the Bible not true. I want to make people aware that there is an opposite to what you adversely claim against the Bible; you are likely to be as wrong as everyone else you say is wrong. I know you say I am wrong and everyone on the forum knows that by now, so it hardly needs stating. We can simply say in future, "I might be wrong, but this is what I think..." and move on.

      You have your beliefs based on what you understand and I have my beliefs based on what I understand. I am simply balancing the book and saying that I do not see anything contradictory in the example you have given. It does not matter whether you agree with any of my reasons or statements. I let others make up their own mind knowing that they have an alternative to think about.

      I am not going to get involved with all the issues you mention as these have been dealt with in other posts on the forum, and anyone reading this blog article is advised to look up the posts on the forum dealing with these controversial topics.

      Until the next time, all the best,

      David
    1. Unregistered's Avatar
      Unregistered -
      First off, God bless you for the work you've done Richard.

      Secondly, it is not a contradiction however, because The 153 is part of the 'mysteries', and Christ had them pull the 153 fish out of the water, as Simon Peter 'drew the net' (both literally, and with a pencil-like object; the 'other' literal interpretation,

      Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken. John 21:11

      'So many' as in =, also

      The fall took place in the heavens. The woman in Revelation that gives birth is Eve. The forbidden fruit are the mysteries, which Christ revealed, in a PURE way, after the the resurrection, the 3rd time He arrived, and removed the 153, which represent the in-borne grudge and hatred against God because we, previously speaking, sought the mysteries for 'ourselves' and were separated for our iniquity. for the forbidden fruit / mysteries are divine as they are creation, yet they contain the elements of darkness.

      Christ asked, after they dined on the 153 fish (or a of couple of fish):

      "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. " John 21:15

      To me, it is clear he is asking where WE love HIM more than the thing He revealed. The 1/3rd fell from Eden...

      Theomatics proves all of this (well, I can't say that for sure regarding the mysteries, but I can it for sure regarding opinion), but it proves the rest. This area is just sitting there, waiting to be discovered. God bless you all, and thank you for your site Richard.
    1. EndtimesDeut32/70AD's Avatar
      EndtimesDeut32/70AD -
      The Bible begins by saying that all the trouble in the world was caused by Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was the only thing God denied them. But then the rest of the entire Bible exhorts people to do everything in their power to gain knowledge of good and evil! It exalts wisdom and knowledge as one of the highest goals every person should strive for.
      If the story ended with the fall, your perspectives of all problems related to the 'fall' and Adam/Eve's failure would have some teeth, but the story doesnt' end there; nor is it the theme of the scenario. The 'seed' is promised to reverse the effects of the 'fall'. Thorugh that seed knowledge of God and freedom of life [unto knowledge] is justified.

      The original scene was in ignorance, insecurity, etc and a conditiaonl maintainance of a relationship with the eternal father/life maker. The NEW CREATION/New Garden is of unconditional relationship; based on being justified by truly believing [and calling out to] the Person of God and in his incarnation in Christ; the seed promised to Eve.. This concept of faith in the person and authority of Christ is the one tree in the Garden of Revelation.

      This 'curse' and felt condemation by God is long ago lifted by him. Jesus said in John 3:16-18 and 36 that he had not come to condem the world but to 'save' the world from the absence of knowledge about God and absence from relationship, freedom and approval from him!!, for until him the would still lay in condemation [curse and ignorance of the fall]. Paul says that there is now NO CONDEMATION. John says that there is no fear in LOVE for perfect love now revealed in knowledge and unconditional adoption by faith alone casts out all fear.

      Those who focus on the problem side of life might not be living in the thankfulness side. Job is an example of one who lived in faith and thankfullness of life.!! The pre-flood patriarchs would be another example. Abel understood, but Cain braought his "works" in fear.

      Some pre-flood souls called on the 'name' and character of God while others reviled and unthankfully complained against him. Those who called on the name of the lord [and his future promised seed] were [I believe] the sons of God who had a positve and thankfull outlook on life and perhaps had spiritual gifts and powers.

      Lamach is an example of one who [I believe] mortified his man of doubt [and thus slew the negative perspectives of being cursed that you mention] He slew the man who bruised him by faith in the future seed and the continued goodness of the creator/creation and LIFE. Noah was his son And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. The flood relieved the earth from the hyper growth under the canopy.

      Col 3 and Rom 8:13 present these perspectives of mortifying the ignorant and unknowing man through faith and knowledge of God now confirmed in Christ.

      Thus, the primise and foundation for your argument is flawed. The bible doesn's say that all problems begin from the fall, or that man has been continually under a 'curse' since that time, but that knowledge and evidence of God and of his approval and love for mankind is found in his incarnation and repealing of any 'curse, taking upon himself any and all 'shame' or curse.

      Paul says in Rom 8:2 that the Law of the spirit of the life of Christ has set me FREEE from the law of sin/death.[spiritual uncertainty, ignorance, seperation]!!!! John says in 17:3 that this is eternal life, that we KNOW [experientially]God through Jesus.

      Parsts of some church doctrines have erroneously taught the perspective you present. The preterist view of the prsent tense [2000 yrs old] New Creation New Heavens and New Earth of the believers life being free from any negative curse or any individual conditional garden law; to those who believe in the reality of his incarnation and entity; shoots those church teachings and your stated premise through the bulls eye.

      We are free to pursue knowledge and in fact many of the greatest scientists were believers in the Creator/designer. Faraday comes to mind. Knowledge of
    1. phinine's Avatar
      phinine -
      as you can see from the above posts that people have completely different ideas on what they believe the text is actually saying. so who is right and who is wrong?? i find it easier for me to understand to look at what many different sources have to say on this to try to better understand by finding some common threads that i can relate to.. but the more i look into it the more questions i have?

      Rabash, Dargot HaSulam (Steps of the Ladder), “The Matter of Tu Bishvat”: The Creator wishes for a person who observes a commandment, which is a fruit, to have both the tree and the fruit taste the same, in other words, for his intention to also be “Lishma,” for the sake of bestowal.

      We must go through several stages in our work. First of all, we need to descend to the degree described as “I created the evil inclination.” Here, a person becomes acquainted with his nature, and he sees how bad, opposite to goodness, he is.

      Goodness is Light, the property of bestowal. Where can I see the property of bestowal so as to measure myself in comparison to it and determine the evil wherein I exist? Where is this evil and the Creator who created the evil inclination? I must attain the Creator who created the evil inclination in me, and opposite to it, I must have the Torah as a spice.

      After all, there can be no darkness without light, and no light without darkness. We do not attain anything on its own, but only in comparison to its opposite. This is why man attains the bad nature in him only to the extent of his good deeds. This is the only way we can comprehend evil.

      So, the sinners that the Torah speaks of are special and great people. The degree of the sinner is a very high degree. One works in relation to goodness, trying to overcome the evil in him and attain goodness. Then, he comes to understand evil, reveals the sin of Adam (Man or Human), and begins the process of correction. In this way, the revelation of evil is a part of this process.

      Only after having understood evil, one begins to test whether the “tree” and the “fruit” are the same and whether they are in one direction, toward bestowal. After all, “fruit” is bestowal, not self-fulfillment.

      One tries to be above his egoism. He determines it to be evil which he needs to rise above. Over and over, he discovers that he wants and is able to enjoy and determines this to be a “plague of Egypt.” He is ready for anything but self-fulfillment.

      Then, he rises above all the possibilities to receive pleasure and comes to the real fruit: bestowal. Pleasure from bestowal is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. This is faith above reason, the faith grown on the Tree of Knowledge. The only way one grows is by rising above evil, above the property of reception that is being revealed in him, and refusing to use it in any way. Then, fruit grows within him.

      This symbolizes Tu Bishvat, the “New Year of the Trees.” Why is it trees instead of fruit? It’s because for now, one is still acquiring the property of bestowal and he is still to learn to receive for the sake of bestowal.

      On the spiritual path, we constantly keep discovering incorrect forms in us. As Baal HaSulam writes in the “Introduction of Talmud Eser Sefirot,” only those whose degree of patience has withstood merit to enter the King’s palace, the “garden” with the Tree of Knowledge in the middle.
      So I


      The Zohar, Chapter “VeYechi (And Jacob Lived),” Item 244: For the next world, it is written, “For as the days of a tree shall be the days of My people.” “As the days of the tree” means the tree of life.” At the same time, it is written, “Death shall be swallowed up forever,” for there are no changes and no death in the tree of life.

      This passage talks about the situation when a person is at the threshold of making a decision, a choice between good and evil, in Klipat Noga. All this system derives from the following: On one hand, the Creator forbids Adam to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, but on the other, He sends Adam a “woman” who tempts him to sin by tasting the forbidden fruit.

      The two opposites co-exist. As for us, we shouldn’t get confused and feel the split in our perception. Rather, we have to realize that the very disagreements present in each state where the Creator is shown as two-faced and having two different attitudes to us are designated to place us in a predicament where we won’t be able to discern what to do and will be forced to need Him.

      This is what is called Klipat Noga, the point of our freedom. This freedom appears at this specific point, where two attitudes of the Creator, good and bad (as it were), come together and make it impossible to tell them apart and remove their conflict, other than by appealing to Him for help.
      so do we appeal to the Creator for help?? because I feel everyone here seems to be caught in confusion and feel the split in our perception as written above??

      just a thought when you look at all the different places we are all coming from on this idea.. as i do not think anyone can say they are truly right rather all we can do is share our ideas and hopefully we get a better understanding on what we think it means.

      good luck.
    1. Milton Thomas's Avatar
      Milton Thomas -
      Hi Richard. Love the facebook plugin made it easy to finally register.

      Viljoen's research at http://www.thepatternbook.com/

      Gave me some insights that upheld my "gut" views of a digital/spiritual understanding of Good and Evil / Tree of Knowledge. As a knowledge seeker the story has always bothered me also, yet I've always seen the story of Adam and Eve as taking place within a Spiritual (digital/light/information) world which we just can not understand trapped so to speak by time and space. Can Good possibly be (time) and Evil (Space/Matter=decay). ie "the Tree of Time and Space"? Just thinking out loud!

      At my Godtype.com research site -Time is ultimately representative of God - Past, Present, Future & Omni-time. Father/Spirit/Son & Trinity. in turn humanity can be categorized by time/energy also according to Jung. This Mirrors the Trinity also, as well as many eastern philosophies who simply speak of the "Energy" as oppose to Christianities view of 4 'knowable" personalities of God - ie Trinity.Spirit,Son,Father ie Potential Energy, Kinetic Energy, Conversion of Energy and Correlation of all Energy (same order).

      The percentages eerily equating to Cognitive Time as we know it (6000 known+1000 future/rest) years revealed time.

      My main quest lately is showing folks that the Bible demands a cyclical view of time. (Erich Sauer's Eternity to Eternity is just one brave soul who tried to subtly preach this & ecl 1:9 is irrefutable)

      I mention this only because cultures with a cyclical view of time where (Knowledge is held and maintained with the shamans) is primarily championed by eastern thought, Mayan etc. A paradox you describe very well in your post. (Our Western worlds linear and progressive knowledge seeking commanded in the bible is surely endangering Life as we know it today) And yet it is a world that "knowledge seekers" could not imagine not living in. Am I part of the problem that is putting in danger our world? or is knowledge due to Technology and a common world language possibly being placed in the hands of too many people who were never meant to have it?

      We are truly mirroring the Bibles technology chapter with the story of Babel.

      Take care, God Bless - Its great to finally register here. Milton
    1. Richard Amiel McGough's Avatar
      Richard Amiel McGough -
      Quote Originally Posted by Milton Thomas View Post
      Hi Richard. Love the facebook plugin made it easy to finally register.

      Viljoen's research at http://www.thepatternbook.com/

      Gave me some insights that upheld my "gut" views of a digital/spiritual understanding of Good and Evil / Tree of Knowledge. As a knowledge seeker the story has always bothered me also, yet I've always seen the story of Adam and Eve as taking place within a Spiritual (digital/light/information) world which we just can not understand trapped so to speak by time and space. Can Good possibly be (time) and Evil (Space/Matter=decay). ie "the Tree of Time and Space"? Just thinking out loud!

      At my Godtype.com research site -Time is ultimately representative of God - Past, Present, Future & Omni-time. Father/Spirit/Son & Trinity. in turn humanity can be categorized by time/energy also according to Jung. This Mirrors the Trinity also, as well as many eastern philosophies who simply speak of the "Energy" as oppose to Christianities view of 4 'knowable" personalities of God - ie Trinity.Spirit,Son,Father ie Potential Energy, Kinetic Energy, Conversion of Energy and Correlation of all Energy (same order).

      The percentages eerily equating to Cognitive Time as we know it (6000 known+1000 future/rest) years revealed time.

      My main quest lately is showing folks that the Bible demands a cyclical view of time. (Erich Sauer's Eternity to Eternity is just one brave soul who tried to subtly preach this & ecl 1:9 is irrefutable)

      I mention this only because cultures with a cyclical view of time where (Knowledge is held and maintained with the shamans) is primarily championed by eastern thought, Mayan etc. A paradox you describe very well in your post. (Our Western worlds linear and progressive knowledge seeking commanded in the bible is surely endangering Life as we know it today) And yet it is a world that "knowledge seekers" could not imagine not living in. Am I part of the problem that is putting in danger our world? or is knowledge due to Technology and a common world language possibly being placed in the hands of too many people who were never meant to have it?

      We are truly mirroring the Bibles technology chapter with the story of Babel.

      Take care, God Bless - Its great to finally register here. Milton
      Hey there Milton,

      Welcome to our forum!



      I'm glad FaceBook Connect made it easy for you to register. I'm hoping this will encourage more folks to comment.

      I tried to download the book from http://www.thepatternbook.com/ but the registration form rejected my phone number as invalid. Could you email you copy to me at richard@biblewheel.com?

      I personally don't see anything "evil" about decay, much less "space/time." Death is part of the cycle of life. Things would be pretty dreary if we lived forever in our present form, though reincarnation would be cool. Like a fresh start after a reboot. But I don't have any firm opinions about such things since such knowledge is beyond us. I tend towards the idea of our present reality is like a dream and death is like waking up. Time will tell, eh?

      I talked about Erich Sauer's Eternity to Eternity in Chapter 3 of the Bible Wheel book. It fit well with the Bible Wheel in that it presented history as a circle moving from Aleph to Tav.

      I took a look at your Godtype.com site. There's too much there for me to know where to start to get a grasp of you basic ideas. I don't understand why you mean by correlating the Trinity with the four things you called "Potential Energy, Kinetic Energy, Conversion of Energy and Correlation of all Energy." The first two are types of energy whereas I don't know what you mean by the third (Conversion - are you talking about Potential becoming Kinetic?) and the fourth (Correlation) is not energy at all. What is being "correlated"?

      I'm not sure the Mayans had a "cyclical" view of time. Their calendar is a "circle" but then so are our analog clocks. When they strike twelve, they just keep going. We don't expect the same (or similar, or typological) events to happen every day, except the necessary events like the position of the sun, moon, and stars, and tides, and things like that.

      I have read a lot about the left/right hemispheres and how that relates to linear/holistic thinking. It's a fascinating area of research. Lot's of insight.

      I don't think technology or knowledge is the source of any problems. It is the application of technology for bad ends that causes problems.

      Again, I'm really glad you have taken the time to share your insights. I look forward to more contributions from you.

      All the best,

      Richard
    1. duxrow's Avatar
      duxrow -
      Don't quote me on this, but the way I see it

      God has raised up a New (2nd Adam) Spiritual Son, and now he's 'ribbing' us to raise up the new 'Bride of Christ' !! ..think about it
    1. duxrow's Avatar
      duxrow -
      Jehoiachin had two other names: Jeconiah and Coniah It's Jeremiah who writes of him in a fashion similar
      to the way Isaiah added to Hezekiah's story.

      Jer:28:3: Within two full years will I bring again into this place all the vessels of the LORD's house, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place, and carried them to Babylon:
      28:4: And I will bring again to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, with all the captives of Judah...

      Jer37:1 And king Zedekiah the son of Josiah reigned instead of Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, whom Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah.
      22:24 As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;

      So it appears that Jeconiah had a ten year hiatus before being returned to Jerusalem, and that BOTH the 8 and the 18 are true. We don't know all that we don't know -- right?
    1. AngelHeart's Avatar
      AngelHeart -
      They are not contradictory, they only appear to be so.

      it's due that the tree part is a myth. The later on verses talking of acquiring wisdom, are real.

      Otherwise said.

      The tree myth, describes what was when it started. Today, in the verses, it is not what started, it is what it continued to become. Continuation.

      Basically calling wisdom, experience, to be costly, and that it will be a fact: you will do it whether you like it or not. So, mythically, it's stated to imply 'you'll do it coz your original parents 'adam & eve' did it. That's all, and to infer that one must always seek that purity too, all while getting dirty experimenting and seeking knowledge.

      What is appearing as a contradiction between two section, is actually complementary. You need to be pure, and impure, constantly seeking purity.

      It's like good & evil appear contradictory but they complete each other; one doesn't exist without the other. Same for positive & negative, hot & cold, etc.

      Good luck
    1. duxrow's Avatar
      duxrow -
      Adam was a very cautious fellow, and didn't believe everything, like about dying on the day he ate, because he'd seen all the squirrels feeding at that tree for many months. But just to be sure, he allowed Eve to eat from the tree first, and after that he was forever certain that God had lied to him!

      Gen3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat". (But maybe he waited a day or two, just to make sure!)
    1. duxrow's Avatar
      duxrow -
      Numb24:17 "...there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel..." It's in the final chapter of Revelation where Jesus is identified as the Bright and Morning Star;
      when we already knew about The Word being the Sword of the Spirit from Eph6:17.
    1. Unregistered's Avatar
      Unregistered -
      Mr. McGough, there are several chapters from other "biblical" texts which have been discovered over time; the Dead Sea Scrolls, the canonical books of the Apocrypha included in the Catholic Bible such as Maccabees and Esdras, the works of Josephus, Augustine, Iraneus, and many others scholars.

      Yes, indeed the Bible does indicate that we should seek wisdom, instruction and knowledge. This wisdom,
      Instruction and knowledge we are to seek refer to an increasing knowledge of G-D Himself, His ways and standards of living. The increase in [revelation] knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit.

      Proverbs 4:7 states, "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding

      When knowledge is received it must first be dissected, broken down to its lowest denominator and then understood in context of G-D's word, viewpoint, and a spiritually sound perspective. One may receive much knowledge, but NOT have a proper and appropriate understanding of it, nor instruction to build said understanding, nor the wisdom to render a proper application of the knowledge obtained whether good or evil.

      The problem with seeking deeper in the spiritual realm for further understanding of what is occurring in present time and why things have occurred in the past, which is what is referred to by The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is that many seek this information from an ungodly spiritual perspective and for many wrong reasons and purposes.

      When G-D does allow one to have this revelation knowledge, instruction, learning, and resulting wisdom, it is to further the cause of building the Kingdom of G-D, and helping others to understand as well when appropriate to do so, NOT to showcase the knowledge gained as a superiority trip over others nor for selfish gain or evil intent.

      G-D has descended knowledge down throughout the history of man primarily through Prophets and others He deemed it appropriate to relay information to at a given time in a specific era, where this knowledge was needed to address an issue of that time.

      I am not sure about the "missing" books you mention, but I am sure that many DO NOT adequately understand the ones we have in print today with the wisdom from G-D I have mentioned. G-D reveals His mysteries to man, even by request of it.

      Jeremiah 33:3 ~ 'Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.'

      There are several scriptural examples which would take much more time and space to write of instances where this did occur. One example to note is the revelation [from G-D] to the Apostle John on the island of Patmos after being exiled for his stand for the Word of G-D, and for his testimony of Jesus The Christ.

      Instead of trying to find out what's missing, we [mankind] should be focused on understanding what is already there in the proper context of the time in which we live, and how to best utilize that knowledge in the most appropriate ways for right purposes.

      Your comment seems to not only address what you believe to be missing, but also indicate that the Fall of Man and Creation as laid out in scripture have some fallacy in their depiction in the Bible, and that some other written works now undiscovered hold a greater more accurate 'truth' which man has yet to find. I respectfully disagree. The Word of G-D must be studied so that we show ourselves approved to rightly divide it, understand it, live it and explain it to others (2 Timothy 2:15). It is believed by faith and understood by revelation from G-D by His Holy Spirit. If G-D provides the knowledge, instruction, learning, wisdom and know-how on how to apply that knowledge, there is indeed no more mystery to be discovered other than maybe why we didn't believe it in the first place and what holds us back from acting properly on that belief if held.

      There might indeed be much more commentary on the Bible to explore, but for now I'm content in asking G-D to help me with greater understanding of the texts man has readily discovered to date and living out that standard to the best of my ability. Discovering the mystery of the Bible and the world's knowledge is a wonderful journey. Living it is yet another part of it and takes us into a deeper more intimate relationship with G-D and others.

      I have found the Biblewheel to be one of the key resources in my studies due to the Greek/Hebraic definitions and cross-reference to Strong's Concordance you note in particularly in the Gematria portion of the Wheel.

      One additional note/question: have you looked further in the Pardes (PRDS) Jewish biblical study process that aides the disciple (the learner) in gaining greater insight into the Bible?

      In reference to the contradiction you speak of about why trouble came into the world was NOT because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it was due to the sin of disobedience to G-D’s instructions not to do so. This sin led to the Fall of Man and the corruption of his inner nature that requires salvation through Jesus The Christ as a remedy.

      Here in lies the essence of the earlier noted scripture – Proverbs 4:7 – with regard to getting understanding. Adam did in fact understand G-D’s instruction yet at the behest of his wife Eve, made the conscious choice not to follow those instructions along with her. Genesis 3:1-7, makes it clear that Adam passed this information down to Eve and that she too ‘understood” what they were NOT to do, as Eve repeated the words of G-D to the serpent is his seduction and beguiling of her with a lie about the very instruction G-D commanded.

      Genesis 3:1-7 ~
      1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

      2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;

      3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

      4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

      5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

      7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

      The sin/fall leading to the ultimate demise of man’s nature was NOT the desire to be wise and gain more knowledge. It was simply that they disobeyed G-D which brought about judgment impacting all of mankind. Adam and Eve “ate the forbidden fruit”. In this I see no contradiction as to how trouble came about. The Bible also notes in Job 14:1 that man’s days on earth will be full of trouble.

      Job 14:1 ~ "Man who is born of woman is of few days and fill of trouble.

      Romans 5:12-18 NKJV explains well the trouble and its remedy.

      Death in Adam, Life in Christ
      12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

      13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

      14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

      15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

      16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

      17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

      18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

      19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
    1. Richard Amiel McGough's Avatar
      Richard Amiel McGough -
      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      I am not sure about the "missing" books you mention, but I am sure that many DO NOT adequately understand the ones we have in print today with the wisdom from G-D I have mentioned. G-D reveals His mysteries to man, even by request of it.
      I wasn't talking about any "missing books." I was talking about the fact that the content of the ten chapters of Genesis 2-11 are missing from the rest of the Old Testament. Those chapters, particularly Genesis 3, play an essential role in the theology of the NT. The question is why were they not mentioned anywhere else in the Old Testament?

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      Jeremiah 33:3 ~ 'Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.'

      There are several scriptural examples which would take much more time and space to write of instances where this did occur. One example to note is the revelation [from G-D] to the Apostle John on the island of Patmos after being exiled for his stand for the Word of G-D, and for his testimony of Jesus The Christ.
      Well, the "Revelation" given to John has proven to be the most misunderstood book in the Bible. Countless Christians have asked God for knowledge of what it really means and they all come to different conclusions. So I see no value at all in supposing that God is the source of all those contradictory interpretations.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      Instead of trying to find out what's missing, we [mankind] should be focused on understanding what is already there in the proper context of the time in which we live, and how to best utilize that knowledge in the most appropriate ways for right purposes.
      That's exactly what I am doing. The thing that is "there" is the mythological chapters of Genesis 2-11 and their prominence in the NT. This is very strange given that they are missing almost entirely from the rest of the OT.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      Your comment seems to not only address what you believe to be missing, but also indicate that the Fall of Man and Creation as laid out in scripture have some fallacy in their depiction in the Bible, and that some other written works now undiscovered hold a greater more accurate 'truth' which man has yet to find. I respectfully disagree. The Word of G-D must be studied so that we show ourselves approved to rightly divide it, understand it, live it and explain it to others (2 Timothy 2:15). It is believed by faith and understood by revelation from G-D by His Holy Spirit. If G-D provides the knowledge, instruction, learning, wisdom and know-how on how to apply that knowledge, there is indeed no more mystery to be discovered other than maybe why we didn't believe it in the first place and what holds us back from acting properly on that belief if held.
      I don't recall mentioning any "written works now undiscovered." What are you referring to?

      Your idea that the Bible is "believed by faith and understood by revelation from G-D by His Holy Spirit" makes no sense to me because that doesn't work in practice. Everyone has their own opinions. We must use logic and facts to discern between truth and error. If we rely upon our "faith" we will only "discover" what we already believe. I've talked with hundreds of very devout Christians who would agree with you about the Bible and faith but who would totally disagree with you about what the Bible really teaches. Therefore, you suggestion leads no knowledge or understanding, but rather it reinforces personal prejudices. This is easy to prove. Take 100 devout Christians who totally agree that they must rely on faith and God to understand the Bible. Put them in a room and see how long it takes before they are calling each other heretics.

      And why do you spell GOD with a dash (G-D) ? That seems like a pretty silly superstition picked up from the Jews who prohibit the writing of יהוה. I can assure you that God would not care if you wrote the word God.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      There might indeed be much more commentary on the Bible to explore, but for now I'm content in asking G-D to help me with greater understanding of the texts man has readily discovered to date and living out that standard to the best of my ability. Discovering the mystery of the Bible and the world's knowledge is a wonderful journey. Living it is yet another part of it and takes us into a deeper more intimate relationship with G-D and others.
      Yes, the Bible is infinitely rich. I used to believe it was the "Word of God." I never thought it was "inerrant or infallible" because I knew that was false but I did think of it as "God's Book" and designed by Him. But I don't believe that anymore so now I'm just mystified by the Bible Wheel and Gematria which show "something" supernatural is going on in the Bible. I just don't know what, and don't know how to explain it. But hey, life is full of mysteries. Maybe someday I will understand.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      I have found the Biblewheel to be one of the key resources in my studies due to the Greek/Hebraic definitions and cross-reference to Strong's Concordance you note in particularly in the Gematria portion of the Wheel.
      That's good to hear.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      One additional note/question: have you looked further in the Pardes (PRDS) Jewish biblical study process that aides the disciple (the learner) in gaining greater insight into the Bible?
      PRDS is an excellent way to categorize levels of understanding the Bible, but I haven't thought about it much lately.

      Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
      In reference to the contradiction you speak of about why trouble came into the world was NOT because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it was due to the sin of disobedience to G-D’s instructions not to do so. This sin led to the Fall of Man and the corruption of his inner nature that requires salvation through Jesus The Christ as a remedy.

      Here in lies the essence of the earlier noted scripture – Proverbs 4:7 – with regard to getting understanding. Adam did in fact understand G-D’s instruction yet at the behest of his wife Eve, made the conscious choice not to follow those instructions along with her. Genesis 3:1-7, makes it clear that Adam passed this information down to Eve and that she too ‘understood” what they were NOT to do, as Eve repeated the words of G-D to the serpent is his seduction and beguiling of her with a lie about the very instruction G-D commanded.
      Well, the whole story makes no sense to me for many reasons. First, what makes you think that Adam could understand the consequence of disobedience if he had no knowledge of good and evil or even death? Second, why is God so hung up on obedience? To say that all the suffering in the world is because Adam And Eve merely disobeyed a command they could not understand makes no sense to me. Would you put poison candy for your child to eat as a test of obedience? Third, there is no such thing as "sin nature." The "inner nature" was not "corrupted." I wrote about this in one of the first posts I wrote when I started this forum back in 2007. It's called Sin Nature - The Phlogiston of Christian Theology?

      Great chatting!

      Richard
    1. jahmeister's Avatar
      jahmeister -
      Is there perhaps some confusion between the types of wisdom and knowledge?

      Personally, I believe Solomon asked for heavenly wisdom from which proceeds heavenly knowledge.
      As opposed to worldly wisdom and earthly knowledge, which was not as desirable and more sensual.

      I think too many people are confused with different manifestations of wisdom and knowledge for this to be helpful Richard, ....... some even mistaken them for the same!
      There is a vast difference between the various forms and they all tell a story and indicate the state of the entity. Perhaps start with this, then debate the necessity of the knowledge of good and evil. Personally, I don't see a contradiction, but I can understand why many would think that, as its dare I say.... logical.

      By the way, after the fall into generations, what choices did man have?

      If science is the study of knowledge, and the language of science is mathematics, is metaphysics is the pursuit of Wisdom? What then is language of Wisdom?
      Perhaps this answers why science is so devoid of wisdom, but steeped in knowledge?

      Anyhow, I think the way you've rendered the information, it comes off looking like a straw-man argument. And your in danger of applying too much logic to wisdom allegory, that it may smother the light of the truth you could have gleaned. That's if you're seeking answers. Remember, your looking back and judging history with tools of the 21st century, upon words relaying a truth conveyed before the average man knew the written word. Also, a lot happened between the garden of Eden and Solomon, that perhaps comparative analysis rendered as you have, misses? Not trying to be critical, just perhaps juxtapose it in an appropriate frame or context.
    1. Richard Amiel McGough's Avatar
      Richard Amiel McGough -
      Quote Originally Posted by jahmeister View Post
      Is there perhaps some confusion between the types of wisdom and knowledge?

      Personally, I believe Solomon asked for heavenly wisdom from which proceeds heavenly knowledge.
      As opposed to worldly wisdom and earthly knowledge, which was not as desirable and more sensual.

      I think too many people are confused with different manifestations of wisdom and knowledge for this to be helpful Richard, ....... some even mistaken them for the same!
      There is a vast difference between the various forms and they all tell a story and indicate the state of the entity. Perhaps start with this, then debate the necessity of the knowledge of good and evil. Personally, I don't see a contradiction, but I can understand why many would think that, as its dare I say.... logical.
      Hey there Jahmeister,

      When Christ spoke of "heavenly" vs. "earthly" knowledge he was talking about things that are beyond the scope of the normal human experience.
      John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
      Christ spoke of heavenly things that he had "seen" (whatever that means). We can't see such things, so it's difficult to say anything about them. What do you think is the actual content of heavenly wisdom? Can it be articulated?

      I'm not sure what you mean by "different manifestations" of wisdom and knowledge. Can you give me an example of them? That would help a lot.

      You say that Solomon received "heavenly wisdom" - but the Bible seems to say that it was "earthly wisdom" required to govern a nation. When the Bible displayed Solomon's wisdom, it was pretty earthy. I'm thinking of the story in 1 Kings 3 concerning the two women who claimed the same child. Solomon's solution was to divide the child, which caused the true mother to relinquish her claim for the same her child. The odd thing is that the Bible describes the effect of this event as revealing the great wisdom Solomon had been given:
      1 Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.
      This seems odd to me because though it was clever, it doesn't indicate anything like "heavenly wisdom." It's pretty pedestrian really. I'm not even sure what "heavenly wisdom" would mean.

      Quote Originally Posted by jahmeister View Post
      By the way, after the fall into generations, what choices did man have?
      I'm not sure what you are getting at.

      Quote Originally Posted by jahmeister View Post
      If science is the study of knowledge, and the language of science is mathematics, is metaphysics is the pursuit of Wisdom? What then is language of Wisdom?
      Perhaps this answers why science is so devoid of wisdom, but steeped in knowledge?
      I would say that science is the disciplined study of reality based on logic, facts, and observations. The "study of knowledge" is called Epistemology.

      The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says this about Metaphysics:
      It is not easy to say what metaphysics is. Ancient and Medieval philosophers might have said that metaphysics was, like chemistry or astrology, to be defined by its subject matter: metaphysics was the “science” that studied “being as such” or “the first causes of things” or “things that do not change.” It is no longer possible to define metaphysics that way, and for two reasons. First, a philosopher who denied the existence of those things that had once been seen as constituting the subject-matter of metaphysics—first causes or unchanging things—would now be considered to be making thereby a metaphysical assertion. Secondly, there are many philosophical problems that are now considered to be metaphysical problems (or at least partly metaphysical problems) that are in no way related to first causes or unchanging things; the problem of free will, for example, or the problem of the mental and the physical.
      As you can see, it is not focused on "wisdom" but rather "first causes" and other questions that go beyond physics. Physics is the study of what follows from the first causes (whatever they may be). The questions that go beyond physics to the first causes is called "metaphysics."

      The "pursuit of wisdom" seems to be called "Philosophy" which literally means "love/friend" (philos) of wisdom (sophia).

      Quote Originally Posted by jahmeister View Post
      Anyhow, I think the way you've rendered the information, it comes off looking like a straw-man argument. And your in danger of applying too much logic to wisdom allegory, that it may smother the light of the truth you could have gleaned. That's if you're seeking answers. Remember, your looking back and judging history with tools of the 21st century, upon words relaying a truth conveyed before the average man knew the written word. Also, a lot happened between the garden of Eden and Solomon, that perhaps comparative analysis rendered as you have, misses? Not trying to be critical, just perhaps juxtapose it in an appropriate frame or context.
      Good points. But can we put them into practice? What did I write that indicated "too much logic"? If you can find something I wrote that should be criticized, it would help if you quoted my exact words so I can know what you are talking about. For example, I don't know what argument you think might be a "straw-man." Could you please clarify? A "straw-man" argument is a misrepresentation of a position that is then easily refuted. How did I do that?

      Your reference to the Garden Story as a "wisdom allegory" may well be true, but how does that help resolve the apparent contradiction that knowledge is presented as the source of all sorrow and evil whereas everything else in the Bible lauds its great value? Doesn't that seem odd to you?

      Great chatting!

      Richard
    1. Kanomica's Avatar
      Kanomica -
      In my opinion, the original post about the tree of knowledge causing the fall of man, and the search for knowledge and wisdom throughout the bible is taken out of context or at the very least, misunderstood.

      The importance of the Garden of Eden incident with the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil is not about the food, or the eating of a fruit to inherit a result, gaining knowledge, etc.

      The fundamental purpose or objective of the passage is to (1.) illustrate the perfect relationship that Adam had with his creator before sin entered, (2.) Adam (and Eve) making a decision to disobey God, choosing to pridefully "be like God", (3.) that decision Adam made which has destroyed man's perfect relationship with God, giving the human race a 'sin nature' which is passed down through the seed of men.

      From that moment in the Garden of Eden until the present, humans have (A.) either been trying to get back to that perfect relationship with God, or (B.) trying to play the role God by controlling everything in their own lives, and everything they can influence in an effort to feel in control.

      In the passages listed in the original post, with people asking God for widom, etc, you are completely missing the point - the point being that the people are admitting they are not in control, and are seeking God's help, keeping God in his rightful place as creator and they in their rightful place as the created.
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