Ping Pong with a Bible Believer

As most readers of this blog have noticed, there is a user who goes by the names “bibelverse” and/or “Gnade” who is not interested in rational discourse, but rather robotically repeating Bible verses and dogmatically asserting the truth of his personal beliefs without the support of reason. Most of his comments have nothing to do with the thread in which they are found so I am creating this thread so he and his primary adversary Michael Free can freely carry on without interrupting the other conversations.

This entry was posted in Bible Wheel. Bookmark the permalink. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL.

120 Comments

  1. MichaelFree
    Posted April 13, 2015 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    It doesn’t matter if Richard’s biblewheel construct shows intelligent design on the part of the bible authors or not, as the bible itself is a book written by human beings with all of the capability intact to devise a wheel and then devise a book to match, and supposedly there is no wheel at all according to Richard, the author of the biblewheel book. So what, the bible is a weird book, it only proves the existence of a book, not of a deity, and the deity described in the bible and the religions it spawned have been murderous. They all bow to murder. This is why truly meek non-christians are said to burn in hell (perpetual act of the process of murder) and why most christians have no problem with that. It is why murderous on Earth christians are said to go to heaven while peaceful on Earth atheists are said to burn in hell. If God deity really was the way that they describe what truly righteous person would even want to be alive, to be governed by an evil creator, and to bow to its filth? Death is better. So I found life in all human beings and the Earth and burned the bible. The bible got what it deserved.

  2. bibelverse
    Posted April 13, 2015 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    No Bible that honors God deserves to be burned, because it’s the greatest treasure in the written word.The holy Bible didn’t get what it deserved. Reflect on your foolish behavior, Michael and restart your Bible studies!

    Jesus said in Mathew 11:29,Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.

    Before man is born again his soul is restless and he lacks meekness and lowliness of heart. Truly unsaved man is very unlike Christ. True believers in the God of the Bible don’t bow down to a murderer. They worship a holy LORD who has always been sinless in word and deed.

    The words of the LORD, for example, were not written by man. The words He spoke all come from Him. He isn’t murderous but majestical in grace, love, wisdom and compassion.

    Searchers for truth, the risen Lord is our Creator. Buy a new KJ Bible Michael, for the risen Son of God isn’t an evil person. He isn’t a filthy person, but a faithful, loving person and He is worthy to be worshipped in spirit and truth.

  3. MichaelFree
    Posted April 13, 2015 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    I don’t need direction not to muck up this thread with endless bs with Gnade. A visible man handed you that bible Gnade, not an invisible one. Visible mans lying hands are all over the gospels and its paganized Jewish messiah that condemns Judaism.

    Truth hurts sometimes.

    Goodness admonishes us to not physically violate other people, to not rob from them, to not rape them, to not kill them, to not torture them, and to not enslave them, but the unholy bible says that “God” gets a pass and gets to do all these things, and does, and by extension, his minions do also. History is littered by their rotten man-made ideology and its rotten fruit and its rotten bible quoting to support all of it.

    The god of the bible and of the gospels is not good.

    Meek and gentle in life non-christians’ purported torture by god in hell when they pass should make anyone of right mind and good heart question the legitimacy of the bible and christianity and what their followers are actually bowing to.

    Religious people suck you in because they claim to worship goodness, and they do, for themselves at least and for people like them, but out of their two-faced mouths comes lies, thefts, and murders exposing the fraud for what it is.

  4. Posted April 14, 2015 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    I don’t need direction not to muck up this thread with endless bs with Gnade. A visible man handed you that bible Gnade, not an invisible one. Visible mans lying hands are all over the gospels and its paganized Jewish messiah that condemns Judaism.

    I’m glad you understand Michael. Gnade is not interested in truth, reality, or rational discourse. His comments are nothing but the dark “muck” of mindless dogmas repeated without logic or understanding. He has ignored almost every answer I have given him. If it gets out of hand, I’ll create another thread and move his comments there.

  5. bibelverse
    Posted April 14, 2015 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Richard, are you interested in pursuing purity? If you were you would pray for increased purity. Richard, are you warning people who are living impurely? If you were there would be something of enduring merit in what you write and you would be blessed to discover that the life of Christ is worthy to be praised.

  6. bibelverse
    Posted April 14, 2015 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Richard, Rose and Michael, you all lack discernment. Discernment is a gift of the Author of life and your “foolish” fight against the cleanest and purest book in existence tells a story about you.
    Open up the holy Bible and ask the LORD to teach you, for there is still hope for those who have gone astray.

  7. MichaelFree
    Posted April 14, 2015 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Jesus may have actually been here along with John the Baptist. That is how I understand what a lot of historians believe.

    Do I think the Gospels are unadulterated and show Jesus as he was (if he were actually here)? Not a chance.

    Do I think the Gospels are adulterated by lying power grubbing hands? Yes.

    Do I think anyone in their right mind and with a good heart would condemn the meek and gentle in life, traits which have nothing at all to do with religion, to a torturous and murderous existence in the afterlife? No.

    Do I think anyone in their right mind and with a good heart would condemn actual criminals in life, traits which have nothing at all to do with religion, to a tortuous and murderous existence in the afterlife? No. Teaching and rehabilitation are righteous, not revenge, not punishment, and not humiliation.

    Is there a true path in word and deed in life? Yes. Is it good and peaceful? Yes. Do I honor it, love it, teach it, and am not perfect at it, but try my best? Yes.

    Do I attribute what would be sins for me to do in life to Gods words and deeds in life (if deity exists)? No. Just as the truth can never be a lie my higher power is the truth itself. I can hear and see the truth in life and know that it is a peaceful and a good path.

    It’s incredibly foolish to ascribe evil (like torture or murder) to an all powerful deity or to pray to it in order to receive gifts or some sort of favoritism in life. It’s a recipe for disappointment, mental illness, and sadness in life. Now praising love and truth or giving thanks, now that is reasonable, even to the invisible man, if that’s your cup of tea. Who can argue with that as long as you don’t sick your invisible man on people who are just trying to get by and live a good life.

  8. MichaelFree
    Posted April 15, 2015 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Say whatever you want Gnade (bibelverse). I think if you do comment again it will be bible quotes and it will be detached from the truth, from humanity, and from reality, so if it’s more of the same I will just point you now to my last comment.

    Take care.

  9. Gnade
    Posted April 15, 2015 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Sinful man needs holy God to lead him in the paths of righteousness. He can’t with all his sincere trying find this narrow way, for Jesus Himself is the way.
    Michael, you are like everyone else.You are imperfect in both word and deed. You are a sinner who needs to put his wholehearted trust in the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

    Michael, your error is that you don’t see yourself as a sinner in need of salvation. Only the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible can reveal this to you.

  10. Gnade
    Posted April 15, 2015 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Always remember that acknowledging the true LORD is His will. Prayer is His gift to man. He does bless man with gifts, but its not out of some sort of favoritism, it is because He is love and is a gracious giver.

    Dear readers, acknowledging that you are a sinner in need of turning to the sinless Son of God isn’t a recipe for disappointment, mental illness, and sadness in life but God’s will.

    Truly only the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible can bless broken and contrite sinners with an abundant, meaningful and fulfilling life.

    Praise Him, for He is worthy to be praised. Desire to surrender your life to Him, for He is the Good Shepherd.
    Enjoy your day and enjoy your Bible studies!

  11. MichaelFree
    Posted April 15, 2015 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    That’s more of the same blather Gnade.

    This is your god Gnade, which you won’t address:

    Deuteronomy 22: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

    This is what the bible wants us to believe is “holy”: The woman is property of her father. The rapist simply pays money for her. Now she is no longer just property of her father and a rape victim but now also a slave to a rapist stranger who will undoubtedly rape her her whole life. Her life is ruined, her smiles are gone, and the god of the bible is pleased, because he is “love and a gracious giver”.

    Burn the bible, treat women as equals.

  12. MichaelFree
    Posted April 16, 2015 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    I should say “burn your bible” not “burn the bible”.

    No one has a right to transgress other people’s property, including their bibles.

    Ownership is truth. We all own ourselves and our property and thus have the right to agree or not agree to what happens to ourselves or our property by other people. Truth and agreement are everything and is the key of knowledge, wisdom, and righteousness.

  13. bibelverse
    Posted April 16, 2015 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you teach falsely once again on this subject. Many unsaved people believe they own themselves but we are gift from God. He is the Owner of us. We don’t own ourself.

    We are responsible for our speech and deeds to the LORD! This is something that He desires to teach you, Richard and Rose and all unsaved people, but they must be willingly to hunger and thirst to listen to Him.

  14. MichaelFree
    Posted April 17, 2015 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    If we don’t own ourselves then the Jewish God owns you, or the Christian God owns you, or the Muslim God owns you, depending on who you’re talking to and whose in power, and the Jew, Christian, or Muslim can by this reasoning do whatever they want to you, and claim that it is sanctioned by their God because you are not part of their God like they are.

    But Truth transcends gender, religion, atheism, ethnicity, nationality, and sexuality.

    Jesus said that they couldn’t bear the truth and I know why.

    You are a human being Gnade. Start acting like one. Go outside and watch a non-Christian love life and love their family, and watch them smile and be happy, then come back and tell me who your God is again.

    Love thy neighbor is a full requirement to love God (for me God is the Spirit of righteousness) with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

    God is not a thief, not a rapist. nor a killer, and definitely doesn’t torture. If your God does these things then change Gods, and since there is only one God, praise the One True God who is a humanitarian and who loves us and who loves his creation and who doesn’t want us to destroy each other or the world.

    “All the ways of the righteous are judgment”.

    Be peaceful in your deeds.
    Be truthful in your words.
    Jesus said “love one another” and to help peole who are in need. Regardless of the nature of Jesus he is the person that instilled this in my heart in a fulfilling and really meaningful way.

    But you make him to supposedly be torturing my dad since 1984. I loved the Jesus that I found the first time I read the Gospels.. My Dad thought he was innocent but my dad was not a Christian, because your religion was evil in many ways to him, and I myself think the same way. He was no better or worse in life than me. It you tell me to condemn my father and to say magical words of allegiance to Jesus to avoid his fate then your religion is evil.

    By blood (wine, truth) and body (bread, agreement) I choose my father over Christianity because your Jesus is not my friend unlike the Jesus that is my friend I found on my own at home with the Gospels.

    It is human beings who hate and fear each other, not God.

  15. TruthFinder7
    Posted April 17, 2015 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Richard,
    I have recently become member of the Bible Wheel; have read many of your post and others for a few years now. I have learned you have become an Agnostic Atheists; please correct me if I’m wrong on this. Anyway I’m indeed a Seeker of the Truth but here are some questions I have for you:

    1. If the Bible is not Truth and has error; what is the point to Life at all?
    2. Do you believe in an after life and if yes please provide evidence to why you believe so?
    3. If there is no Bible God; then indeed humans become there own god right?

    Look forward to your response; have a Blessed Day…

  16. Posted April 17, 2015 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Hi TruthFinder7,

    I just answered you on the forum (link). But since we are here in this thread, I’ll answer again briefly:

    1a) The Bible is not the only book that makes claims about a creator. Who told you the Bible is God’s Word, and why do you believe them?

    1b) How would a god give meaning to an otherwise meaningless life? Does the meaning of your life today depend upon what you were doing a year ago? And if heaven is true, what would make it meaningful? I think there is a lot of confusion about the “meaning of life.”

    2) I do not believe in an afterlife. There may be one, there may not. I have no way to know. But it seems most likely that death is the end of our personal consciousness.

    3) No. The non-existence of the Bible God entails nothing but the non-existence of the Bible God and the falsity of the Bible and all religions based upon its presumed truth.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

  17. bibelverse
    Posted April 17, 2015 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Richard, life isn’t meaningless. As man desires to become less selfiish he is blessed by the LORD to find increased meaning in life.

    Everything the LORD does is meaningful.His love toward us and His compassionate companionship make a believers’ life tremendously meaningful.
    2 Timothy 3:16

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    If this verse was believed by Richard and Rose everything that they write about the holy Bible would change.

    Dear Richard and Rose and all readers, the LORD can use the holy Bible to correct and reprove us. Both Christian and non Christian need to be corrected and reproved by the Teacher of teachers.

    Welcome the sinless Author of life to instruct you in righteousness, for He alone is righteous. Start today. Turn to the righteous Teacher of teachers and hunger and thirst for what He has to say , for He alone is the truth.

  18. Posted April 17, 2015 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Richard, life isn’t meaningless. As man desires to become less selfiish he is blessed by the LORD to find increased meaning in life.

    Everything the LORD does is meaningful.His love toward us and His compassionate companionship make a believers’ life tremendously meaningful.

    I didn’t say life is meaningless. I asked a series of questions, namely: How would a god give meaning to an otherwise meaningless life? Does the meaning of your life today depend upon what you were doing a year ago? And if heaven is true, what would make it meaningful? I think there is a lot of confusion about the “meaning of life.”

    If you think you have an answer to those questions, please share. Your assertion that “Everything the LORD does is meaningful” is meaningless. There’s no reason to believe he even exists, and if he does exist, then many of his actions appear quite meaningless and irrational. For example, what rational ruler would kill 70,000 of his own people for the “crime” of their king taking a census that wasn’t even prohibited? The Bible is filled with madness from beginning to end. It presents God as a petty, cruel, and irrational ruler.

    Merely denying these facts will not change them. It only confirms that your beliefs are likewise irrational and contrary to truth.

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    If this verse was believed by Richard and Rose everything that they write about the holy Bible would change.

    Yes, it would change into blatant absurdity.

    Dear Richard and Rose and all readers, the LORD can use the holy Bible to correct and reprove us. Both Christian and non Christian need to be corrected and reproved by the Teacher of teachers.

    Why do you continue to repeat this absurdity? The Bible is full of contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God. Why do you ignore the truth?

  19. bibelverse
    Posted April 17, 2015 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Saul of Tarsus was a man who persecuted followers of the risen Lord. He was a man imprisoned by false beliefs about them, yet he LORD graciously and miraculously set him free.

    His life became meaningful because the Author of life dramatically intervened in his life. After he was born again his whole life was turned around and instead of acting destructively, he was blessed to live a meaningful life.

    Richard, ask the LORD to teach you and start to desire to praise Him, for His steadfast love.Truly He is the only LORD. All the other gods are liars whom Satan uses to deceive God’s creation.
    Truly only the God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is trustworthy.

    Richard, invite Him to show you how much He loves you. Start today and invite your wife to join you. Decide once and for all to put an end to your self indulgent, foolish fight which is only resulting in you distancing yourself from eternal God.

  20. Posted April 17, 2015 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Richard, ask the LORD to teach you and start to desire to praise Him, for His steadfast love.Truly He is the only LORD. All the other gods are liars whom Satan uses to deceive God’s creation.
    Truly only the God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is trustworthy.

    Trustworthy? Are you insane? I cannot imagine a more delusional statement. I explain why in my article Is God Trustworthy? The Root of Religious Delusion.

    Richard, invite Him to show you how much He loves you. Start today and invite your wife to join you. Decide once and for all to put an end to your self indulgent, foolish fight which is only resulting in you distancing yourself from eternal God.

    Foolish fight? What are you babbling about? I have give good reasons for my rejection of the Bible God, and you have not written one word that would suggest any error in my conclusion. What is wrong with you? Why do you assert things like a robot? If you want to convince me of the truth of your words, you need to at least try to communicate like a person with a brain rather than a mindless robot.

  21. MichaelFree
    Posted April 18, 2015 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    Cool, got our own thread.

    “The bible is full of contradictions, error, and moral abominations attributed to God”.

    That’s a great quote. It’s concise and true in every account and it’s worth memorizing.

    Christians at one time or another have killed non-Christians simply for being non-Christians. Atheists have their martyrs also.

    The murder of non-believers has been mostly replaced by telling non-believers that they will be tortured and be in agony for eternity when they die.

    Christian hands and mouths transgress “God’s” laws today. I have heard that some Christians transgress against Arab homes and families in Palestine by funding Jewish settler theft of homes and land and calling it Christian. This is outright transgression: “Do not steal”. George W, Bush, a “born-again” Christian used “crusade” to describe US illegal wars in the Middle East. They are truly transgression: “Do not kill”. The one who calls himself “Pope”, the head of the Catholic church, Francis (Jorge Bergoglio), said that it was alright to physically strike someone merely for having to endure a verbal insult from them. This is clearly transgression on his part (a lie) and I’ve never heard him apologize or clarify this. He simply clarified that his comment was not meant in any way to justify the Charlie Hebdo massacre. I don’t believe he was ever held to account for spreading the idea that one can use physical violence against a verbal insult. And he’s the leader of billions and professes to be “Vicar” of Jesus and also professes that independent interpretations of the Gospels are “dangerous”? You can’t strike people because of verbal insults, how’s that for an independent interpretation of the Gospels. Christians want to put the Ten Commandments on national display and have prayer in schools where atheist children go to learn. You transgress when you tell our children that non-Christians burn in hell. You put hate and fear in their minds and taunt them with the invisible bogeyman, and you call it “good”. You try to make them physically fear an invisible being. And this is transgression: “Do not lie”. I could also speak about how some Jews supposedly think that non-Jews are their slaves or how many Jews believe non-Jews are not fully human. Law of human decency (very unbiblical): “Do not enslave people”. Or I can speak about Islam and how it can be interpreted that they are to kill non-believers. Outright transgression: “Do not kill”.

    “Do not kill” means do not violate other people physically in any way.

    Lies
    Thefts
    Murders

    If you knew what transgression was you would see it plainly in the bible by most of the personalities and how that transgression has been attributed to “God”.

    It’s good to confront transgression and to restrain it but it is not good to initiate transgression upon the individual.

    How many “not the right religion” or “atheism” martyrs are there?
    How many women martyrs are there?
    How many homosexual martyrs are there?

    Three great groups that have been unjustly oppressed throughout history by other people and by religion.

    The truth is not biblical because the bible is not the truth. The truth can be extracted from any book or preferably just by living, being alive, being aware, and judging rightly.

    Even if human being’s consciousness is extinguished when we die or whether our “souls” (having a “soul” is clearly “belief”) go elsewhere, it’s still the law of creation that we as a species enjoy peace and abhor conflict, thus atheists who don’t fear supernatural judgment are held in check on Earth by peace loving people, just as religionists who don’t fear human judgment are held in check on Earth by peace loving people, whether that “holding in check” is physical restraint, or at the very least, the strength and moral superiority of the truth spoken loud and clear. Atheists not fearing supernatural judgment is not any different than religionists who think they have a “get out of jail free card”.

    And here’s the big lie that is foisted upon non-believers and believers alike: their deity is love and truth (transgression: lying. Love and truth are love and truth and they don’t have personality) so praise the deity, but by all means, don’t see love and truth in non-believers (transgression: theft of the knowledge of love and truth), and by all means don’t see life in non-believers (transgression: murder, whether murderous thoughts, words or deeds).

    Lies.
    Thefts.
    Murders.

    Now I got my own thread. I can go on and on and on. Ping-pong anyone?

    Life is good.

  22. MichaelFree
    Posted April 18, 2015 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    The truth is lord of lords and king of kings. An empty throne because the truth is not a personality. It’s why kings will be raised from their seats and why every ear will hear what is has not heard and will see what it has not seen. Every individual has mattered throughout history and the judgment has been the same:

    Do not lie.
    Do not steal.
    Do not physically violate other people.
    Do not rape.
    Do not murder.
    Do not torture.
    Do not enslave.
    Do not destroy the Earth.
    Do not be vengeful but rather be true and fair and humane.
    Take a day off and have a good time once in awhile and smile for God’s sake.

    I believe there is a supernatural intelligence that cares about actual love and actual truth and that doesn’t want the Earth destroyed and that before humans can destroy the Earth there will be judgment on Earth.

  23. MichaelFree
    Posted April 18, 2015 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    What the world thinks is peaceful, whether some Jews and their ideology, some Christians and their ideology, some Muslims and their ideology, or anyone else with false and hurtful ideologies, is not peaceful. The truth sets you free to see peace where you thought there was no peace to be found and to see transgressions where they said they were doing good things. And then your eyes are opened and you know that God is God of all. God to me is the truth (the true path in word and deed is peaceful and good) and the truth shows its power when you look at the world this way and when you can’t be bought with gifts or favoritism or social friendships. It is truly supreme because you cannot gainsay it and there is no recourse, not even quoting bible verses. A killer knows that they have killed and a rapist knows that they have raped and that it is wrong. Their very gut is more powerful than religion or any notion of any “God”. That’s why those ISIS killers know they are serving evil and yet their book overrides their very core “creator-made” nature. This nature is Most High but instead their God is a book. Their religion is God. The key of knowledge is the knowledge that the truth is supreme. God is the God of Truth. Treat all people truly equally.

    Man, it’s good to be able to go on and on, and not feel like a nuisance. I feel free.

  24. MichaelFree
    Posted April 18, 2015 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    It should say:

    “It’s why kings will be raised from their seats and why every ear will hear what is has not heard and why every eye will see what it has not seen”.

    The righteous and the heathen will be given the keys to the Kingdom and the world will be in awe at the presence of the Mighty One.

    God is goodness.

  25. MichaelFree
    Posted April 18, 2015 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    As you can tell I do have some “beliefs” in life.

  26. Posted April 18, 2015 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Cool, got our own thread.

    Yeah, it made sense. I would like the comment streams to be focused on the article if possible. But I don’t like to block anyone from commenting, even if they are as repetitive as Gnade. You seem to like to engage his assertions.

    “The bible is full of contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God”.

    That’s a great quote. It’s concise and true in every account and it’s worth memorizing.

    Yeah, it seems to sum up the truth pretty succinctly.

    Christians at one time or another have killed non-Christians simply for being non-Christians. Atheists have their martyrs also.

    The murder of non-believers has been mostly replaced by telling non-believers that they will be tortured and be in agony for eternity when they die.

    Exactly correct. Fear is the mind-killer. Religion is designed to shut down the mind of it’s victims, like the paralyzing venom of a snake. And then to indoctrinate them with fear and self-hatred, so they ultimately believe that they deserve eternal torment for the “crime” of being born. It is a wicked and perverse poison that corrupts the minds and morals of believers.

  27. Posted April 18, 2015 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    As you can tell I do have some “beliefs” in life.

    Ha! I hadn’t noticed! ;)

  28. bibelverse
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Michael, you do have some beliefs, but they in my opinon will not result in you understanding that the LORD who speaks in the Bible truly is LORD. Michael, if you believed in the biblical Jesus, then you would delight to witness that He is Immanuel. If you believed in Him you would lift up His name.

    Reread what you have written in the last year, Michael. Have you been doing this? Is your witness that He has risen from the dead? Is your witness that He is the truth? Is your witness that He is sinless?

  29. bibelverse
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Richard, once upon of time you were an inspiring researcher. Now all you do is moan that the Bible is absurd except for rare moments when you reflect upon and rethink your flawed teachings.

    Am I really robotic and mindless or do you lack discernment?

    Richard, you must answer before holy God like everyone else. Stop believing the lie that you are more moral that He is. Acknowledge to the LORD that you are sinner in need of His gift of salvation, for the Lord came to earth to offer the gift of salvation to sinners like you and me.

    I know that you have written eloquently on the subject for many years, but that falls short of what the LORD desires. Start wholeheartedly trusting Him and you will be blessed by Him to truly search for Him.

  30. MichaelFree
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    My witness is that the truth is not a person.

    My initial interpretation of the Gospels and Christianity’s interpretation of the Gospels do not match. You know this.

    What I’ve come to realize is that no ones interpretation of the Gospels is trustworthy so why would I vouch for something that is untrustworthy?

    I will vouch for the true path in word and deed though because I know it’s good.

  31. Posted April 19, 2015 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Richard, once upon of time you were an inspiring researcher. Now all you do is moan that the Bible is absurd except for rare moments when you reflect upon and rethink your flawed teachings.

    Am I really robotic and mindless or do you lack discernment?

    You really have been quite robotic and mindless. I have tried to engage you in rational discourse and your only response was to quote Bible verses.

    I think it is a great thing that you are now trying to engage me rationally. I hope it continues.

    You suggest that I lack discernment. Let’s pursue that theme. Please quote something I’ve written that “lacks discernment” and explain why.

    Thanks!

  32. Posted April 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you must answer before holy God like everyone else. Stop believing the lie that you are more moral that He is.

    It is not a lie. I have never commanded genocide. I oppose the sexism and slavery sanctioned in the Bible. I would never create people and then cause them to suffer forever in hell. I am a finite fallible man, but I am infinitely more moral than the God described in the Bible.

  33. bibelverse
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you are not the LORD. Only He can show His creation the truth path.

    Man’s heart is deceitful and that includes yours. Michael, your first error is that you fail to recognise that the Bible is a holy book. It is a book given by inspiration of God.

    Man wa involved in writing it out but that doesn’t mean it is from man, for it expresses the perfect will of God. Furthermore, whenever the LORD says: thus says the LORD, He shows very clearly who His speech is from! The LORD is not a force without a personlity. He is Spirit but He is also love and longs to be spoken and prayed to as heavenly Father.

  34. Posted April 19, 2015 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Man’s heart is deceitful and that includes yours. Michael, your first error is that you fail to recognise that the Bible is a holy book. It is a book given by inspiration of God.

    Who told you that the Bible is a holy book? Who told you it was inspired by God? And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?

  35. MichaelFree
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    I know I’m not the “Lord”. The illegitimacy of any human being claiming to be “Lord” or anything other than a human being is humorous.

    I’m just a human being like all other human beings.

    Richard’s questions are great questions, but I suppose you will probably dance around them, bringing us back to:

    “The bible is full of contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God”.

  36. bibelverse
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    Michael, if you claim to own yourself that is a form of claiming to be lord of your life. You are responsible as I am for my speech and deeds before God. The LORD desires to have your willing permission to cleanse your speech. Will you surrender your will to Him so that He can truly bless you with new life?

  37. bibelver
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Richard it is all about the LORD’s testimony. He testifies time and time again that He is holy, righteous, gracious and loving? If you choose to hate Him, without a cause, you just volunteer to stay ensnared by Satan, the father of lies.

  38. Posted April 19, 2015 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Richard it is all about the LORD’s testimony. He testifies time and time again that He is holy, righteous, gracious and loving? If you choose to hate Him, without a cause, you just volunteer to stay ensnared by Satan, the father of lies.

    Why are you ignoring my questions?

    Who told you the Bible is God’s Word? Why do you believe them if their heart is “desperately wicked.”

    You are blind believer. I’ve been asking you the same questions for months and you do not answer.

  39. MichaelFree
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Sometimes I feel like I’m living in an alternate reality like a bad episode of “The Twilight Zone”.

  40. MichaelFree
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Welcome to planet Earth, the planet where billions of human beings are governed by an invisible man. We’re so screwed.

  41. MichaelFree
    Posted April 19, 2015 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Late great planet Earth, where human beings were prevented from seeing the fullness of all of humanity, their goodness, or their potential, because the invisible man was having none of it.

  42. bibelver
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Richard, why do you keep asking the same question when I answer your question time and time again? Try to focus on what I write! I wrote that you find the answer in the testimony or trustworthy witness of the LORD.

    My answer can’t be clearer! The very Author of life testifies that His Word is pure. What more do you want to hear Him say. He hasn’t revealed this truth to you because you are not fully committed to Him. Repent and come as a student before the Teacher of teachers.

  43. bibelver
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Michael, man’s problem is his rebellion. He has been deceived to think, as you have been, that his efforts to please God will please Him. They don’t.

    That isn’t what God desires. He desires us to put our faith in His sinless Son in whom He is pleased! Then our efforts to please Him will be empowered by Him to His glory.

  44. Posted April 20, 2015 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    My answer can’t be clearer! The very Author of life testifies that His Word is pure. What more do you want to hear Him say. He hasn’t revealed this truth to you because you are not fully committed to Him. Repent and come as a student before the Teacher of teachers.

    Get real Reine. What makes you think you have heard a word from the Author of life? You have merely read a book written by men whom you believe have corrupt hearts. You have never told me why you believe the Bible is true. You have merely repeated that you believe it. That is utterly blind belief, exactly the same as a cult member like a Muslim or Mormon.

  45. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Your declarations of faith in deity above all human decency towards one another is no different than ISIS burning non-believers and calling it holy and deity-approved. You all transgress. You all have gone your own way. You have left love and truth as orphans while claiming that your violent deity is the father of love and truth. Whose going to stand up for love and truth in a world filled with liars, thieves, murderers, and religionists who sell mental illness, transgression, and spiritual retardation?

    Actual love and actual truth not only judges all of us but also judges all of our notions of deity.

    Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible? Tell me Reine! Tell me or stop calling your god love and truth.

    The truth is despised and rejected and held in low esteem by much of humanity.

  46. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    “The truth is despised and rejected and held in low esteem by much of humanity”, just like the righteous leper with a skin condition in a world whose notions of beauty and justice go only skin deep.

  47. bibelverse
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Michael, your last words are correct. The truth is the sinless Son of God. He was despised and rejected by many people when He lived on earth and He although risen from the dead after triumphing over Satan, sin and death continues to be despised and rejected by many.

    If man despises and rejects the Word of God he will also reject the LORD as His heavenly Father, because the Father and the Son are one.

  48. bibelverse
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Michael, as you are blessed by the LORD with increased understanding you will understand that He is love. He is not lack of love!

    He loves women exactly as He loves men. He offers to teach women. They are required to do the same things as men to please Him, for He says without holiness no one will see the LORD.

  49. bibelverse
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you ask me to tell you many things. I have been telling you many things for about a year and still you haven’t made a single prayer on this site to the Author of the holy Bible.

    Go to Him. I am a student of the Bible. My encouragement to you Michael is to go to Him. He is real person. Endeavour to build a relationship with Him.

  50. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    It is your hateful and hurtful religion that is despised and rejected by many, not Jesus, so don’t conflate the two. Despising and rejecting hate and hurt is righteous. And I personally know no one who thinks that Jesus deserved crucifixion for his words and his deeds which were clearly not criminal.

    Enough mindphuckery Reine, answer this:

    “Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible? Tell me Reine! Tell me or stop calling your god love and truth”.

  51. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m a student of the truth.

  52. bibelverse
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Michael, stop all your foolish writing about me. You must be fast asleep if you think I am not saying Yes to good speech and good behavior.

    That is God’s will but relying on it to please God is wrong. His priority is that we listen to His teaching voice which clearly says: Listen and learn from My Beloved sinless Son. Trust and obey Him, for He is the way!

    He is Your teacher, the holy One and Lord! Look to Him and what He has done for salvation then after you are born again living submitted to Me you live a new life that honours Me.

  53. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    The lesson I learned from Jesus in the Gospels is not the lesson that you learned from Jesus in the Gospels. When he told the parable of the Good Samaritan it was a religion vs righteousness parable, righteousness comes first, then righteous religion comes second. How will you ever know righteousness if your unrighteous and divisive religion closes the door?

    And what’s up with this creepy sentence, you might want to rewrite it: “He is Your teacher, the holy One and Lord! Look to Him and what He has done for salvation then after you are born again living submitted to Me you live a new life that honours Me”? Who is “Me”?

  54. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    And here you left out a comma leaving one to wonder just what it was you were trying to convey. I know what you meant though.

    “He was despised and rejected by many people when He lived on earth and He although risen from the dead after triumphing over Satan, sin and death continues to be despised and rejected by many”.

    The comma comes after “sin and death”.

    Words mean a lot. I like clarity.

  55. Posted April 20, 2015 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    He is Your teacher, the holy One and Lord! Look to Him and what He has done for salvation then after you are born again living submitted to Me you live a new life that honours Me.

    Hey there Reine,

    I’d really like an answer if you don’t mind. Why should anyone believe the Bible? It was made up by men, just like the Quran and the Book of Mormon. You don’t believe those books. Why do you believe the Bible? And for that matter, WHICH BIBLE do you believe? The Protestant (66 books), Catholic (73 books), Eastern Orthodox (77 books), or Ethiopian (80 books)? Which of those is inspired? And how do you know?

    Have you ever given any serious thought to why you believe what you believe, or were simply brainwashed as a child?

  56. Reine Gnade
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Michael, the Me should have been Him. As far as knowing grammar goes, wisdom is more important, so stop trying to be so silly. Your commentaries are all over the place.

  57. Reine Gnade
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Richard, I read the KJV of the Bible. It’s not about me. I already believe the Bible. You should study the life of the Son of God again. You and Michael will only truly esteem the Bible, if you are desiring to trust and obey the LORD! Show in 2015 that you still read and study the words of Christ.

  58. Reine Gnade
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Michael, it you like clarity as you claim, you wouldn’t burn your Bible! Have you ever considered that the Lord is sovereign over you?

    If you desire to honor His name you should start teaching the truth on this matter. The God of the holy Bible has blessed you with a body, soul and spirit? When are you going to give Him the glory for this?

  59. MichaelFree
    Posted April 20, 2015 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I think I’m done going back and forth with you.

    I only corrected your grammar to help you, not to make you look bad. Same goes for when I pointed out your name change. I hate this religious stuff. I like people, and that includes wanting you to be happy. If I seem mean or disrespectful towards you I deeply apologize. I mean that from my heart.

    My commentaries may seem all over the place, and that is fine. The only thing that has changed throughout the course of my comments is that I learned that the Gospels are just as bad as the rest of the bible and that the Gospels have the same hurtful effect as the rest of the bible. I’ve been saying the same righteousness (love, truth, agreement) throughout and I’ve been saying the same non-condemnation of all people throughout. I’ve also pointed out that the Gospels, just like the rest of the bible, have thousands and thousands of different interpretations, which is not helpful when one seeks truth.

    Take care.

  60. Reine Gnade
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    Michael, why do keep running away? Do you still don’t understand that the LORD is calling you to bible study.
    Although you are a talented person like Richard and Rose your understanding of the Bible is somewhat lacking. You still don’t seem to understand that only God Himself can open a searcher’s eyes to the meaning of His words.
    Truth doesn’t have many interpretations as you claim. For example, when the LORD says, Listen to My Son. This command is very clear! If we obey God’s voice we honor Him, but if we disobey Him we dishonour Him! Nothing here is open to interpretation!

  61. Reine Gnade
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    Michael, if you have a disrespect for the LORD who reveals Himself in both the Old and New Testament it isn’t surprising that you would also disrespect his children!

    You, Richard and Rose get emotional, but it’s more important to understand, for the Lord teaches that His people perishes because of a lack of understanding!
    The choice is yours Michael! Stop playing the rebel and decide to follow Christ wholeheartedly! Study His words daily and desire to start hallowing His name daily!

  62. MichaelFree
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You are some piece of work.

    This comes from you Reine, not from the bible:

    “He loves women exactly as He loves men”.

    You’ve been saying this whole time how good the bible god and Jesus are, then you say this:

    “He was despised and rejected by many people when He lived on earth and He although risen from the dead after triumphing over Satan, sin and death continues to be despised and rejected by many”.

    I simply point out your grammatical error so that your statement lines up with your contention about the god of the bible and Jesus being good and not evil, and then you say:

    “As far as knowing grammar goes, wisdom is more important, so stop trying to be so silly”.

    I wouldn’t want your “Dear Readers” to misunderstand you. The follower of truth doesn’t hate the truth, so he swallows his pride and says thanks when someone tries to help him out, and doesn’t call it silly.

    You illicit sympathy from me because you won’t answer simple questions about the bible and why you believe like you do. This hesitation on your part doesn’t make me feel good.

    You keep promoting ignorance and blind belief by not answering these simple questions:

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book? Who told you it was inspired by God? And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    And:

    ““Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible?”

    You can’t answer those questions because you don’t care about the truth, but rather only about belief in the deity, whom you call truth. And this exposes the big lie where you promote that the bible god is love and truth. If you cared about the truth you would swallow your pride and let the truth lead you and you would answer these questions. The truth is the best thing, not religion that retards the mind.

    You said:

    “Michael, if you have a disrespect for the LORD who reveals Himself in both the Old and New Testament it isn’t surprising that you would also disrespect his children!”

    This is a website devoted to truth and discussion, however raw and unfiltered the truth may come. If you feel disrespected that is too bad. The “lord” who shows himself in the bible is a murdering, raping, and enslaving devil, and you worship the transgressor. My dad died a non-Christian and your proclaim he is burning in hell. I never said that Christians burn in hell. So you disrespect me and my dad. Christianity initiated the transgression against me and I’m just defending myself, but you still say that I “disrespect his children”. You’re a child of hell because you believe in that nonsense and you promote it. You’re religion is Satanism, because you promote belief in Satan. If that is too hard to understand for you, imagine two kids on a playground talking to each other, they’re both being peaceful, but then one of them punches the other in the face. The one who punched first is at fault. Don’t you get it? Your religion is disrespectful, dishonorable, and a big lie, and it promotes physical transgression against my fathers soul, and as we have seen throughout history, it promotes physical transgression against non-believing human beings here on Earth.

    Then you say:

    “Truth doesn’t have many interpretations as you claim. For example, when the LORD says, Listen to My Son. This command is very clear! If we obey God’s voice we honor Him, but if we disobey Him we dishonour Him! Nothing here is open to interpretation!”

    I said that the bible has many interpretations, not the truth, but here you go promoting another lie when you say that I said that the truth has many interpretations. Also, a book told you your nonsense, not the “lord”, and not his “son”, and not “god’s voice”. You know this don’t you? Interpret what I wrote here and then you will know that your delusional religion is completely unfounded, it hates the truth, and your inability to engage in a logical discussion about your religion shows your blind belief, just like a cult, the Mormons or the Muslims, as Richard has pointed out more than once.

    Blind belief is mostly a product of indoctrination when children are young. Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and all other faiths, if they indoctrinate their children when they are young, they will most likely remain a life-long member of that faith. Don’t you understand this? If you understood it you would realize also that a good god would not create children of different faiths only to torture the ones who have the “wrong” faith in hell for eternity.

    Then you say:

    “Although you are a talented person like Richard and Rose your understanding of the Bible is somewhat lacking”.

    You’re such a simple person. If you cared about truth you wouldn’t be so simple. You won’t answer simple pivotal questions that Richard and I posed to you, and then you have the nerve to say that our understanding is lacking. Your understanding of the bible is like a slave who follows whatever fear was instilled in them. Your master can come and start killing non-believers, no matter how peaceful they are on Earth, and you probably wouldn’t have any problem with it, because the deity did it, so you bow, like an evil slave, while the follower of truth and goodness is ashamed of your master, and rightfully so.

    Best quote that no one can defeat, even god, if there is one:

    “The bible is full of contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God”.

  63. MichaelFree
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    And you said:

    “Michael, why do keep running away? Do you still don’t understand that the LORD is calling you to bible study”.

    Number one, I’m not “running away”, but rather I’m disgusted at your religion. Number two, you are not the lord, for it is you who keeps saying to study the bible, not the lord.

    My lord is the truth itself. Not a deity that I’ve never met and that I’ve never seen. Your deity nonsense is an enemy of the truth and is no different than mammon, because the love of both and the hatred of human beings both inspire, are murderous and self-serving, greedy and proud of it.

    And the atheist who doesn’t fear judgment in the afterlife is no different than the religionist who thinks they have a license to sin as long as they apologize, even if it’s one minute before physical death, and who says that all that is needed is a proclamation of faith in the deity. You ever play the board game Monopoly, there is a jail and a get-out-of-jail-free card. This is what you think you have, a get-out-of-jail-free-card, and yet religionists condemn atheists who don’t believe in an afterlife, because you are hypocrites, and don’t see it, because you hate the truth. So something else keeps relative peace here on Earth. And that something else is our gut and our love of our families and our love of our communities. Human beings are made to want to live in peace. It’s in our blood.

  64. MichaelFree
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    These two statements I made to you do not conflict with one another:

    “If I seem mean or disrespectful towards you I deeply apologize. I mean that from my heart”.

    “This is a website devoted to truth and discussion, however raw and unfiltered the truth may come. If you feel disrespected that is too bad”.

    And this is why:

    I don’t want to seem mean to people or hurt anyone’s feelings, so I apologize for that if that is how you feel, but this is a discussion where I am free to express myself, and for that, if you feel disrespected, it is too bad.

    Take care.

  65. Posted April 21, 2015 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Richard, I read the KJV of the Bible. It’s not about me. I already believe the Bible.

    So why do you believe the KJV Bible? You still have not answered this question. And what about the other Bibles? Are they “mostly inspired”? If you reject the extra books in the other Bibles, how is anyone supposed to know which are from God and which are not? Have you never considered these questions?

  66. Simon Miles
    Posted April 21, 2015 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    This discussion is not about Christianity versus non-Christianity at all. It is just another internet argument between two opposing groups. It is no different than the Apple versus Android fanboy wars. No different at all. This is what the internet has done to us. We can now argue with people we don’t even know. And because we don’t know them, because we don’t see them, or sit down with them across a table, with a cup of tea, because we don’t have any of these human cues, we are cut off from all human feeling and interaction with the other person. So all we are doing is yelling into a mirror. All that is happening here is each side endlessly propping up their own position, and ignoring the other. Both sides. What is the point? The point seems to be proving that the other person is an idiot. Yet, they will never admit it. Pesky and annoying isn’t it. If only the other person would admit that they are an ignorant fool who knows nothing, who twists facts, who is confused, illogical and lacking in understanding. Yet the other person persists. You are both people. You are the person who wants the other person to admit defeat, and you are the person who won’t admit defeat. That’s right: you are that person, and that person is me. We are all the same person. We are all wrestling with the big questions of life, and we are all on a timeline of discovery. Who are we? Why are we here? How did everything come to be? Where are we headed? Is there a God? These are wonderful, complex, culturally-soaked questions, with the possibilities of many wonderful, nuanced, varying, valuable answers. For millennia, humans have gathered around campfires to discuss these, to weigh them, to offer thoughts and experiences. Then we moved indoors, around tables. Now we have done away with all of the personal interaction, and we just hurl these endless diatribes at each other across the internet, huddled in our lonely rooms. Android versus Apple, Apple versus Android, and in a million other splintered conversations which follow the same script. It’s not just here, it’s on every discussion board on the internet. You’re an idiot! No, you are an idiot! I called you an idiot first! How dare you call me an idiot!

    What is it that you want of the other person? That they agree wholeheartedly with everything you’ve said, and abandon their position. Well, that’s not going to happen is it. Each of us is on a timeline We are dealing with stuff as it comes up. We react to it. We keep using what works, until we change. I’m not going to switch to Apple because of something you said, and you are never going to switch to Android because of something i said. Ah, whatever, let’s keep fighting about it. Screen resolution! Battery life! Apps! God is invincible. God is an immoral mass murderer. What version of Android are you running? The King James Version? How do you know that is the current version? Burn the books, kill the christians. Be good. Be kind. All wars are caused by religion. Except the ones that aren’t. How dare you. But you said this, and I said that. Answer my question. You say how dare I well how dare you! Why I oughta.

    Just get a phone. Or don’t get one. Become a christian, or stop being a christian. Live your life. Or not, if that doesn’t please you. We are all the same, in that we are all uniquely different. There is no correct answer to the question Android or Apple. There doesn’t have to be. You don’t have to agree with me. I don’t have to concede to you.

    Now watch what happens. Absolutely nothing. The discussion will resume. But you still haven’t answered my question. Etc. Times one million. Day and night, without ceasing, round and round the internet, the entire world has its hands around the throat of the next guy. Somewhere, in a little corner of the universe, God is weeping, wondering why He bothered.

  67. Posted April 22, 2015 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    This discussion is not about Christianity versus non-Christianity at all. It is just another internet argument between two opposing groups. It is no different than the Apple versus Android fanboy wars. No different at all.

    Not true. This particular discussion is characterized by a “believer” asserting his beliefs without reason. That’s why I called it “ping pong with a Bible Believer.”

    This is what the internet has done to us. We can now argue with people we don’t even know. And because we don’t know them, because we don’t see them, or sit down with them across a table, with a cup of tea, because we don’t have any of these human cues, we are cut off from all human feeling and interaction with the other person. So all we are doing is yelling into a mirror. All that is happening here is each side endlessly propping up their own position, and ignoring the other.

    I strongly agree that this form of communication, lacking in body language and tone of voice, is very limited and leads to much confusion, frustration, and misunderstanding. But it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s “talking in a mirror” only to the person who is stubborn and doesn’t want to learn. Personally, I think it is great to be able to communicate with people from all over the world, yourself included. But it’s not for everyone, since it requires a lot of patience and work on both sides to get past the limitations.

    The fact that some people simply ignore what the other says is the root of most of the problem. But it is not generally true of “both sides” as you say. Case in point: You recently repeated the same points about my “debunking project” (link) that I had answered months ago (link). I took time to answer every point you made, and you totally ignored what I wrote. That’s why I haven’t answered your last post where you just repeated the same assertions without any interaction with the answer I had given. It seemed like talking to a wall.

    All that is happening here is each side endlessly propping up their own position, and ignoring the other. Both sides. What is the point? The point seems to be proving that the other person is an idiot. Yet, they will never admit it. Pesky and annoying isn’t it. If only the other person would admit that they are an ignorant fool who knows nothing, who twists facts, who is confused, illogical and lacking in understanding.

    That’s a horrible caricature that reveals more about your personal experiences and frustrations than the conversations on the internet. And it is ironic, since I answered your assertions and you ignored what I wrote.

    Now reflect on your entire post. What is it if not a rant? Are you interacting with any of my claims? Nope. Did your last post, in which you said my debunking failed, interact with any specific claims I made? Nope. The internet could be like peer review, but you are refusing to do the “hard work” of actually critiquing what I’ve written, and choosing rather to speak in broad generalities that have nothing to to with any specific claims I’ve made. I hope that changes. If you have sufficient energy to write a big complaint about the lack of meaningful conversations then it would be the height of irony if you failed to even try to play your part.

    You are the person who wants the other person to admit defeat, and you are the person who won’t admit defeat. That’s right: you are that person, and that person is me. We are all the same person. We are all wrestling with the big questions of life, and we are all on a timeline of discovery. Who are we? Why are we here? How did everything come to be? Where are we headed? Is there a God? These are wonderful, complex, culturally-soaked questions, with the possibilities of many wonderful, nuanced, varying, valuable answers. For millennia, humans have gathered around campfires to discuss these, to weigh them, to offer thoughts and experiences. Then we moved indoors, around tables.

    I totally agree with the sentiment, but it simply is not true that I am won’t admit defeat. I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong. I’ve written half a dozen articles on that very theme! Maybe this form of communication just isn’t for you. That would be unfortunate, because I would still enjoy reviewing your assertions about my supposed failure to debunk the Bible Wheel. Are you willing to have a principled, disciplined, and mutually respectful discussion on that topic? When you first challenged me (link), you said that you had some evidence that would be an “independent witness” to the validity of the Bible Wheel and that my debunking article would be “the signal to begin to reveal the nature and details of this independent witness to the world.” I think it would be great if you used my blog to present that evidence. I’d like to test it with the same rigor I have tested my own claims about the Bible Wheel. It should be very enlightening.

    Then we moved indoors, around tables. Now we have done away with all of the personal interaction, and we just hurl these endless diatribes at each other across the internet, huddled in our lonely rooms. Android versus Apple, Apple versus Android, and in a million other splintered conversations which follow the same script. It’s not just here, it’s on every discussion board on the internet. You’re an idiot! No, you are an idiot! I called you an idiot first! How dare you call me an idiot!

    They are not all like that. Yes, most of them are, but not all. And in those that are, there are many people who are working to make the conversations better and more fruitful. The world is what we make it. You and I could work together to show the world how its done. We currently hold contrary views with much passion. Can we discuss our differences in a passionate, yet reason way? I don’t see why not. Look at my previous response to you (link). Is there anything in my post that would fit your sad description of internet conversation? Look at my first paragraph :

    Simon, Thank you for the very thoughtful comments. I have been looking forward to discussing this with you since you have adopted and adapted the Bible Wheel to suit your own purposes which are very important to you, so you have a vested interest in saving it from being totally debunked. Our conversation should be very enlightening.

    I’m a very reasonable man Simon. I admit when I’m wrong. I desire mutually respectful conversation. I do not fit the stereotype you have presented. So let’s drop the empty generalities and get down to business. I will respond in detail to your last post about how my debunking failed, and we can continue from there. Sound good?

    What is it that you want of the other person? That they agree wholeheartedly with everything you’ve said, and abandon their position.

    No! I want my ideas to be challenged, tested, modified, improved, falsified, confirmed, etc., etc., etc.

    Now watch what happens. Absolutely nothing. The discussion will resume. But you still haven’t answered my question. Etc. Times one million. Day and night, without ceasing, round and round the internet, the entire world has its hands around the throat of the next guy. Somewhere, in a little corner of the universe, God is weeping, wondering why He bothered.

    Funny how one man’s white is another man’s black. There’s a lot more than “nothing” coming from these conversations. People are changing their minds, learning new things, correcting old errors. The internet is the greatest revolution in 400 years. Remember what happened when the printing press was invented? People broke free from religious oppression (Protestant Reformation) and then the scientific revolution happened. The internet is the printing press lit up with gigawatts of power operating at light speed. I hope you have your seatbelt on!

  68. MichaelFree
    Posted April 22, 2015 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Simon,

    My conversation with Reine has meaning. And it is a conversation not a pissing contest.

    Being seemingly “dismissive” of others’ conversation and the nuances going on in them is unfortunate.

    To cast such a wide net of what seems like dismissiveness onto Internet conversations is also unfortunate. I’m 42. I remember what it was like before a world of information was available at our fingertips, at home, and in our pockets.

    I too feel like you do about the slash and burn nature of many Internet conversations but there always seems to be at least one other person that wants to have an actual discussion, and they can be just about anywhere in the world, which is incredible.

    If you have a grievance with anything specific I have written I would be glad to address it.

  69. MichaelFree
    Posted April 22, 2015 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Simon,

    Let me tell you something about me. I despise with my whole being lying words and physical transgressions against other people’s persons or their property. So, when you write things like “kill the Christians” or “all wars are caused by religion”, my lie and transgression detector lights up. Why did you write those statements here when referring to the conversation I’ve been having with Reine?

    Also you said “God is an immoral mass murderer”. Neither I nor Richard have said those disgusting words. If you’ve been paying attention, like you claim to, you would know this. These are the nuances that you seem to be missing and at the same time dismissing.

  70. Posted April 22, 2015 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Hey Michael,

    I think you may have misunderstood Simon’s intent. As far as I can tell, it seems he was giving examples how the conversation sounds to him. One persons says “kill all Christians” and the other side says “kill all atheists.” I didn’t get the sense he was attributing any of those “disgusting words” to either of us. It’s important that we keep a cool head and tone, since some folks are very easily offended.

    Loving your contributions to the conversation.

    Richard

  71. Posted April 22, 2015 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    To cast such a wide net of what seems like dismissiveness onto Internet conversations is also unfortunate.

    Excellent point. It’s kind of ironic to be so dismissive about the value of internet conversations on the pretext that everyone is dismissive. Many are not. It’s something we all need to work on, to make a better world. Obviously, Simon understands the value of public communication or he would have bothered posting his (rather extended) comments.

    I’m 42. I remember what it was like before a world of information was available at our fingertips, at home, and in our pockets.

    I’m 55, and live in a constant state of wonder for the amazing tool we have built, the the limitless potential it opens. Look at what followed the invention of the printing press (freedom from bondage to institutional religion and the scientific revolution). Now imagine what will happen with a terawatt multimedia global printing press operating at light speed! Put on your seatbelts folks, we are in one hell of a ride!

  72. Posted April 22, 2015 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    If you have a grievance with anything specific I have written I would be glad to address it.

    Excellent attitude. If everyone shared it, Simon’s complaints would quickly evaporate.

  73. MichaelFree
    Posted April 22, 2015 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said:

    “I think you may have misunderstood Simon’s intent. As far as I can tell, it seems he was giving examples how the conversation sounds to him”.

    Fair enough.

    I just hope that no one reads my comments and thinks that I would even want to be associated with the statements “kill the Christians” or “all wars are caused by religion” or “God is an immoral mass murderer”. So I documented my objection to the statements. It’s the best I can do. It feels uncomfortable letting these things go unaddressed. Once I address them I can go back to my center.

    Of your reply to Simon, this is what I found to be most intriguing:

    “When you first challenged me (link), you said that you had some evidence that would be an “independent witness” to the validity of the Bible Wheel and that my debunking article would be “the signal to begin to reveal the nature and details of this independent witness to the world.”

    Simon?

  74. Posted April 22, 2015 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    I just hope that no one reads my comments and thinks that I would even want to be associated with the statements “kill the Christians” or “all wars are caused by religion” or “God is an immoral mass murderer”. So I documented my objection to the statements. It’s the best I can do. It feels uncomfortable letting these things go unaddressed. Once I address them I can go back to my center.

    I understand. I would feel the same way. It is good that you clarified. Now you can get back to center. :)

  75. Posted April 22, 2015 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Of your reply to Simon, this is what I found to be most intriguing:

    “When you first challenged me (link), you said that you had some evidence that would be an “independent witness” to the validity of the Bible Wheel and that my debunking article would be “the signal to begin to reveal the nature and details of this independent witness to the world.”

    Simon?

    Yeah, I’m very much looking forward to his reply too. It should be very enlightening. And I could put it through the same kinds of tests that I used when debunking Christian apologists and my own work.

  76. MichaelFree
    Posted April 22, 2015 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I also love the Internet and share your enthusiasm for it. I believe it empowers the individual and that is what I’m all about. I believe human beings are essentially good, and that when the people actually rule themselves in all governments, and what’s worked for is for the good of the people, respecting each and every individual, not some special interest, the world is going to change. And yeah, buckle up, the powers that be don’t like it.

  77. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    “Righteous Jesus”

    “The righteous Jesus'” eleventh commandment to “love one another” precludes religious affiliation and murder and all the bad things, on Earth and in a Heavenly afterlife, for all people. If anyone calls Jesus in the clearly adulterated Gospels a liar, not in things of unfinished prophecy or meaning mind you, but in things of function in the world during his time in the Gospel story, or if anyone calls him a transgressor of person or property in the Gospel story, including the temple scene, they are a liar, whatever interpretation of the Gospels (KJV) that you use.

    The truth tells you it’s a lie. He got killed for his beliefs. They transgressed his person, his property, and lied about him. All the bad stuff, lies, thefts, and physical transgressions. Jesus’ religion was not to do these bad things. The Jews in the temple in Jesus’ time in the Gospel story let their religion preclude the true path in word and deed when the true path in word and deed reveals that the actual truth in life is the Most High. And you extend it to all people with equal rights and you don’t let liars and thieves dwell for long in the temple.

    And Jesus’ religion is to follow truth and your heart. It’s the right side of the boat. The parable of the Good Samaritan. Don’t condemn the non-believer but see their heart and their humanity and know they are just like you and accept them as they are, a fellow human being.

    That”s “righteous” Jesus. Righteous is not hard. Just don’t lie and don’t steal and don’t violate people physically. Then be an artist in life and tell people that don’t like you to mind their own business. And smile in peace and actual truthful innocence in life. The good life.

    Help people in need. That’s the best thing. Truthfully.

  78. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    “Righteous Jesus” (part two)

    And when someone transgresses be truthful and compassionate and fair towards them, but one does not have to endure transgression in life, and thus can fight back, until the point of restraint only, and not further into vengeance or indeed into transgression. And this is in all truth.

  79. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    “Righteous Jesus” (part three)

    Do I have faith (belief) in “Righteous Jesus'” actual truthful existence in life? I have no idea. I have never met him. Do I have faith in the true and good path in word and deed? Yes. I can see it all around me and know without a doubt that it is good and I like goodness.

  80. Gnade
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Once we are convinced that Jesus was a real historical person, then we are faced with some deep questions: Was He righteous?

    Was He the only person who has ever lived without sinning?

    Was He, as He claimed, one with the heavenly LORD He prayed to.

    Jesus’ claim to be one with the Father must be put to the test, for the Bible teaches that God is righteous.

    The Bible also teaches that Jesus, the eternal Word of God, came from the Father.

    If Jesus wasn’t righteous Christianity would be a lie, because had He sinned during His lifetime on earth He too, like all His creation, would have needed a Savior.

    So what is the truth? What is the glorious truth? The truth is exactly as Richard used to testify with magnificent accuracy a decade ago.

    The sinless Son of God is uniquely Our atoning sacrifice.

    When we fall in love with Him we fall in love with the person who is Our Creator, righteous King, treasured Teacher, Savior and Lord God!

  81. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You said:

    “So what is the truth? What is the glorious truth? The truth is exactly as Richard used to testify with magnificent accuracy a decade ago”.

    The truth is that a truth-teller in a conversation can be asked any specific question whatsoever and will not avoid it but answer it forthright.

    So what about these questions Reine:

    “Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible?”

    And:

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book? Who told you it was inspired by God? And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    Also, you say:

    “If Jesus wasn’t righteous Christianity would be a lie, because had He sinned during His lifetime on earth He too, like all His creation, would have needed a Savior”.

    One not look any further than most of Christianity’s condemnation of Judaism and “non-believers” to know that Christianity is a lie and one not look any further than most of Judaism’s condemnation of “gentiles” and non-believers to know that it is a lie and one not look any further than most of Islams condemnation of “non-believers” to know that it is a lie. However, indeed, a “person” who is actually a “Savior”, would necessitate that that person had not sinned ever, just like the truth is not a lie ever.

    Only blind belief would make questions unanswerable because those questions unravel the supposed truth and righteousness of religious dogma.

    The truth is the best thing, wherever it leads. It’s good to have faith in the truth.

  82. Gnade
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    All your questions, Michael, are answered best by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. That’s where the LORD, above all else, intervened in human history
    demonstrating His courageous, compassionate, gracious, forgiving love.
    Look also to Christ’s resurrection from the dead and His teaching of the golden rule. God’s love doesn’t enslave man, but empowers him to love more steadfastly.

  83. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I said:

    “Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible?”

    You say that it’s the Golden Rule (which also exists outside of Christianity), and that is the correct answer, but then why do you try to justify the clearly non-Golden Rule actions in the OT that have been attributed to “God”? And why do you profess a version of Christianity that has non-believers, many who actually follow the Golden Rule, burning in hell when they die, which is clearly a non-Golden Rule action on the part of the “God” that you profess, and also clearly a non-Golden Rule action on the part of you in your beliefs about other human beings?

    Richard asked:

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book? Who told you it was inspired by God? And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    The Golden Rule is not followed in much of the bible and many bible believers profess non-Golden Rule beliefs about other human beings who actually follow the Golden Rule, so the Golden Rule couldn’t be what “told you” that the bible is a holy book, or that it was inspired by “God”. So it must be “man” that “told you” these things and who insists on something that cannot stand up to the actual Golden Rule (the truth). And I’m not buying your “man’s” (peoples) heart is fundamentally deceitful belief, for I know that people are generally good and want to live a good life.

  84. MichaelFree
    Posted April 24, 2015 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    I said:

    “If anyone calls Jesus in the clearly adulterated Gospels a liar, not in things of unfinished prophecy or meaning mind you, but in things of function in the world during his time in the Gospel story, or if anyone calls him a transgressor of person or property in the Gospel story, including the temple scene, they are a liar, whatever interpretation of the Gospels (KJV) that you use”.

    Me saying “liar” in the above statement is not a proper use of the word. I just personally haven’t seen that the Jesus character in the Gospel story ever lied about things of function in the world. By “things of function in the world” I mean for example an obvious lie such as if someone in the Gospels dropped something and Jesus picked it up and then the person who dropped it asked Jesus if he had seen it and Jesus were to reply “no”. That would obviously be a lie. That’s what I mean by “things of function in the world”. The rest of his words can be interpreted as “unfinished prophecy” or can be interpreted innumerable ways (have many “meanings” with no clear answer). I’m most definitely open to anyone pointing out an actual lie on the part of Jesus in the Gospel story but I haven’t seen it yet.

  85. Gnade
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    Jeremiah 17:9
    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    The LORD knows rhe condition of our heart. His desire is to bless us with a pure heart.

    Jesus taught: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

    The pure in heart will be blessed to know the LORD intimately.

  86. MichaelFree
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’d like to respectfully end this conversation.

    I am not going to become a “Christian” or a member of any other divisive religion as it’s not possible for me.

    If you have any questions for me I would be glad to answer them, otherwise I’m done with this conversation.

  87. Gnade
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Unsaved people are not good. Most unsaved people are incredibily selfish and unthankful.

    They love pursuing pleasure, before seeking to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

    Michael, embracing egoism isn’t the way of Christ.

    Michael, will you listen to the LORD? Can you see that your teaching isn’t just crooked, but totally egotistical!

    Michael, stop running away everytime you discover a verse from the Bible that reveals that your understanding is flawed!!

    Twenty years ago I lived selfishly. Turn to the LORD, for He can rescue sinners. Welcome the God of wisdom, love and grace to teach you.

  88. MichaelFree
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You said:

    “Can you see that your teaching isn’t just crooked, but totally egotistical!”

    I assume that you mean my “teaching” that most people are good people is egotistical on my part. You can run around thinking humans are all bad and condemning non-Christians but I will not.

    Egoism means that individuals ought to do what is in their own self-interest. That is not at all what I wrote in any of my comments, but quite the contrary, I’ve said that individuals ought to treat others the way that they themselves want to be treated by others. Egoism allows transgression towards other people whereas the true golden rule does not. My comments have been about not transgressing in word and deed.

    You said:

    “Michael, stop running away everytime you discover a verse from the Bible that reveals that your understanding is flawed!!”

    Are you kidding me Gnade? Are you joking? There are lots of evil verses in the bible that have been attributed to God but you won’t see them for what they are and then you have the nerve to say that I am “running away”. It’s all so sickening.

    You said:

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

    and

    “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

    The bible also says: “There is none righteous, no, not one”

    But you won’t acknowledge that those statements from the bible contradict each other, making Richards statement accurate:

    “The bible is full of contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God”.

    You can’t see Richard’s statement as true, even though it is, because your heart has been hardened by religion to not see the full truth.

    Answer these questions directly or else it is you who is “running away”. I gave you a pass when you said that the golden rule reveals the answer to you, but I will no longer give you a pass, because you do not practice the golden rule in its fullness in life nor do you apply it to the bible. A person who professes to operate in truth does not fear answering pertinent questions directly:

    “Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible? Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible?”

    And:

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book? Who told you it was inspired by God? And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    Are you going to answer these questions directly or are you going to keep on dancing around the truth? If you don’t answer the questions directly, line by line, question by question, you are “running away” and I will have nothing more to say to you.

  89. MichaelFree
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    If you believed in the True Golden Rule you wouldn’t condemn (“condemn” to a torturous hell in the afterlife, which translates to transgression excuses on Earth) other people who are not of your religion and if other people who are not of your religion believed in the True Golden Rule they too would not condemn you for not being part of their religion.

    Most Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all condemners. You all do to each other what you wouldn’t want done to yourselves. Do you want to be condemned merely because of your religion Reine? I don’t think you do. Many Jews and many Muslims condemn you and you condemn them right back. And none of you condemners know what peace is and none of you follow the True Golden Rule in its fullness.

    And I bet you got excuses for condemning people who are not of the “right” religion but your excuses are not part of the questions that were posed to you, so either answer those questions line by line, or take a hike and quit saying that I’m the one who is “running away”.

  90. MichaelFree
    Posted April 25, 2015 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    And don’t think I contradict myself when I say that most people are good people and then I go on to say that billions of Christians, Jews, and Muslims have non-Golden Rule beliefs, for it is your beliefs about people that are not of your religion that are bad, and not you that is bad. There is a big difference between beliefs and deeds. Beliefs we can walk away from but deeds affect people’s person or their property. I can speak against your beliefs but I cannot speak against your person or your soul or your right to believe however you want to believe.

    And throughout history, and even today, your beliefs about other people’s souls being condemned and tortured in hell translates into the real world towards many people who are physically transgressed against by religious people who hold non-Golden Rule beliefs about other people who are not of their religion. It’s an ugly head of divisive religion, just like militant atheism’s ugly head, or mammon’s ugly head, that shows itself again and again throughout history. If the True Golden Rule were what were taught instead of division, hate and fear, and love of money and power over other people, then the world would be a more peaceful place and that is what I’m all about.

    If most people were not good people then the world would have no function and be completely dysfunctional, and in all public places where there is more than one person there would be no peace, but that is not the case, because most of the time most people are mostly good. You can call that egotistical if you want to but I will call it truth instead.

    When I say that most people are good people I’m saying that as shorthand for most people are mostly good, for I don’t know anyone who has been good their whole lives.

    So answer those questions and quit running away from the truth.

  91. MichaelFree
    Posted April 26, 2015 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I don’t want to talk with you anymore about these things we’ve been talking about so I will answer those questions for you.

    “Where is the prohibition against physically assaulting other people, rape, torture, and slavery in the bible?”

    The answer is that in the bible rape and slavery are not outlawed, but rather they have rules in order to engage in them. Many women are raped in the bible. Women are viewed as property of men which is a big lie because men and women are equal. And slavery seems to be part of life in the bible, and as Richard has pointed out, as recently as the American slave trade in past centuries, slave traders used the bible in an attempt to justify slavery. So not only women but also people in general are viewed as the property of men which is a big lie. I have heard that many Jews believe that gentiles are meant to be their slaves and were born for that purpose. There are many actual slaves in the world today and it is 2015. As far as physical assault and torture Richard would be a better expert on this than me as I have only read the Gospels in their entirety.

    “Where is the full and loving respect of women in the bible?”

    Women are mostly viewed as property in the bible and as less-than men, which is a big lie about women and the importance of their lives.

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book?”

    It was a human being and your own faith, but seeing that transgression has been attributed to God in the bible, it was not the Golden Rule that told you that it was a holy book.

    “Who told you it was inspired by God?”

    The answer is a human being and your own faith told you that, just like human beings and their own faith in other religions have proclaimed their books to be inspired by God.

    “And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    This is for Reine to answer.

    I’m done.

    Peace.

  92. Posted April 26, 2015 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    “Who told you that the Bible is a holy book?”

    It was a human being and your own faith, but seeing that transgression has been attributed to God in the bible, it was not the Golden Rule that told you that it was a holy book.

    “Who told you it was inspired by God?”

    The answer is a human being and your own faith told you that, just like human beings and their own faith in other religions have proclaimed their books to be inspired by God.

    “And why did you believe them if their heart is deceitful?”

    This is for Reine to answer.

    Thanks Michael, it’s good to keep Reine’s feet to the fire. How many times has he refused to answer those basic questions? It just goes to show that fundamentalist religion is for those willing to blindly believe whatever they’ve been told.

  93. bibelverse
    Posted April 26, 2015 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Never mind about my feet, you should be concerned about the condition of your heart, soul and mind!

  94. bibelverse
    Posted April 26, 2015 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Michael, your error is that, like Richard and Rose, you think you know the answers!

    You have read the Gospels which are true and they made a big impression on you, but then you discovered the Old Testament and your anger grew so much that you set fire to some of the correct insights that you originally correctly treasured.

    Now you teach that you own yourself, are at home and free.

    Michael, if you are unsaved you are separated from Your Maker, restless and spiritually speaking imprisoned. Michael, all unsaved people need a Savior. Put your wholehearted, undivided trust in the sinless Son of God.

    What happened, Michael? Why don’t you pray for the courage to speak up for Christ? Why don’t you trust Him to teach you that the LORD God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is trustworthy?
    Ask the LORD to help you to start doing this, for only He can set you free! He is our home. He loves us. Turn to Him the Author of the Bible, then holy, almighty God will be delighted to teach you out of His Word.

  95. Posted April 27, 2015 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Michael, your error is that, like Richard and Rose, you think you know the answers!

    And you don’t?

    The difference between our beliefs and yours is that we can support ours with logic and facts, whereas yours are nothing but dogmas from a book you have been told to believe.

  96. Posted April 27, 2015 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    You have read the Gospels which are true

    No they are not, and I can prove it because they contradict themselves.

  97. bibelverse
    Posted April 27, 2015 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Richard, an unsaved man can’t prove that the Gospels contradict themselves because the Word of God “speaks” perfectly. Don’t volunteer for Judgment Day as someone critical of His Creator.

  98. Posted April 27, 2015 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Richard, an unsaved man can’t prove that the Gospels contradict themselves because the Word of God “speaks” perfectly. Don’t volunteer for Judgment Day as someone critical of His Creator.

    Your words are utterly delusional Reine. Why do you keep repeating things that are are absurd?

  99. MichaelFree
    Posted April 28, 2015 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    “Don’t volunteer for Judgment Day as someone critical of His Creator”.

    Finally we got the “threat”. This threat is the very transgression basis of the religion of the “liar”: they say “believe in my God or go to hell and be tortured for eternity”. It’s a snake oil salesman religion just like a drunk pirate wanting to get over on and take advantage of the innocent natives. And then Jesus sweet talks you. It’s duality (good and evil) and acceptance of transgression in God’s name. It doesn’t see everyone in the world as equals. It’s not my Creator.

    If I were going to assume a supernatural intelligent all-powerful Creator-being actually existed I would not assign anything but pure good old-fashioned righteousness to it, you know, just in case the thing actually exists I wouldn’t want to slander it. Now let’s look at that accusation once more: “Don’t volunteer for Judgment Day as someone critical of His Creator”.

  100. bibelverse
    Posted April 28, 2015 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Michael, where do you get the idea from that I am threatening anyone?

    I mentioned two important matters: that Richard is critical of the Creator, the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible, and that there is a day of Judgment.

    Additionally it is my opinion that Richard like Rose and Michael have “volunteered” willingly to disregard much of what God teaches.

    Don’t carry on believing the lie that the origin of the word hell stems from the mind or imagination of man, for the sinless Son of God, Jesus Christ, uses the word hell.

    Michael instead of throwing accusations about you should revisit the words of God’s Son.

    Michael, there is no evil in the Savior and He doesn’t sweet talk. He speaks the truth at all times and Michael you should head His warnings about hell, because He is not a false but a righteous teacher.

  101. bibelverse
    Posted April 28, 2015 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Let’s decide to heed the words of Jesus. Stop closing your eyes, ears, mind, soul and heart to what He says about hell.
    Ask the LORD to help you trust His every word!

  102. Posted April 28, 2015 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Let’s decide to heed the words of Jesus. Stop closing your eyes, ears, mind, soul and heart to what He says about hell.
    Ask the LORD to help you trust His every word!

    Ah … the sweet doctrine of eternal hell! Have you never reflected upont the perversity of your beliefs? Your demon-god created billions of people with the intent of roasting them forever. Listening to them scream for mercy must give him a hard-on. He exalts evil beyond anything ISIS could ever imagine. Yahweh loves the smell of roasting human flesh. This is one of the primary reasons why I quit Christianity, as explained in my article Why I Quit Christianity. The religion is utterly disgusting and evil. How could anyone with a hear or mind believe it?

  103. Posted April 28, 2015 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Finally we got the “threat”. This threat is the very transgression basis of the religion of the “liar”: they say “believe in my God or go to hell and be tortured for eternity”. It’s a snake oil salesman religion just like a drunk pirate wanting to get over on and take advantage of the innocent natives. And then Jesus sweet talks you. It’s duality (good and evil) and acceptance of transgression in God’s name. It doesn’t see everyone in the world as equals. It’s not my Creator.

    You got that right Michael. It’s been lurking in the background from the beginning. It is the perversity that few believers dare admit but most believe. If there were no doctrine of hell, there would be no way for them to compel people to join their cult. They are a dying religion, and for that I am glad.

  104. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 2:50 am | Permalink

    When we link Mathew 25:41, Mark 9:46 and Revelation 20:15 together we get a unified insight of what hell is.

    Jesus says in Mathew 25:41: “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire . . .”

    In Mark 9:46, Jesus speaks about Hell: “Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

    Revelation 20:15 says, “And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

    Searchers for truth, it is very important that we take Hell seriously!
    Jesus taught that Hell is a place of torment and fire as this Scripture reveals:

    In Luke 16:24 a man is heard crying “. . .I am tormented in this flame.”

    Enjoy your Bible studies! The LORD truly is love and His love heals.

  105. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Richard, you should put what you wrote in your last comment side by side with what you used to write a decade ago.

    I genuinely have been trying to teach here at your webpage for many months, but you have refused to listen to what I teach, so it’s time for me to invest my time elsewhere. Your errors, like those of Michael, are too numerous to list.

  106. Posted April 29, 2015 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    I genuinely have been trying to teach here at your webpage for many months, but you have refused to listen to what I teach, so it’s time for me to invest my time elsewhere. Your errors, like those of Michael, are too numerous to list.

    That’s your mistake Reine. You think you have been trying to “teach” when all you’ve really been doing is insisting on the dogmas of your religion. You have never engaged me in rational discourse. Case in point: The most fundamental question is why anyone should believe the Bible. I have asked you a hundred times and all you have ever said is “because it is true.” That’s it! If you think that is “trying to teach” then you have no concept of what teaching means.

    Your assertion that my errors are “too numerous to list” rings rather hollow given that you have failed to list even one.

  107. Posted April 29, 2015 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Searchers for truth, it is very important that we take Hell seriously!
    Jesus taught that Hell is a place of torment and fire as this Scripture reveals:

    In Luke 16:24 a man is heard crying “. . .I am tormented in this flame.”

    That doctrine is an abomination. Why should anyone believe it? Your only possible answer is “because it’s in the Bible.” Great! So tell me why anyone should believe the Bible. (Of course, we all know you can’t do that.)

  108. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    What is the teaching method that I consider very beneficial? It is the linking of verses from the Bible. For example, I link Psalm 16:11 and John 14:6 together. This isn’t cherry picking, for they belong thematically together.

    Truly the sinless Son of God is the way and the life and the way of life. Truly He is the truth and everything He has ever spoken is truthful and will always be truthful!

  109. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

  110. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 6:41 pm | Permalink
  111. bibelverse
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    The witness of the Psalmist is that: You have made known to me the path of life.

    The Psalmist correctly gives glory to the God of the holy Bible for making known to him the righteous path of life.

    Michael boasts that he has found the path of life, but his witness is very different from that of the Psalmist.

    Be encouraged, for the God of the holy Bible is the person who can lead sinful man in the path of life.

    Let’s put our trust in Him to draw us to His Son. Truly, He and the Father are one. Trust Him wholeheartedly and you will be abundantly blessed.

  112. MichaelFree
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Before I read the Gospels I was agnostic about God-beings’ existence but wholeheartedly believed in Heaven.

    For a long time I searched for a righteous path in life for myself, one that was true and good and provable.

    Then I read the Gospels still looking for the righteous path, the meaning of the Golden Rule. I interpreted the Gospels my own way and thought that the Gospels were righteous.

    Then I came here. On this site I learned a lot. I got to look into the mind of a mainstream so-called “Christian” (Gnade) and got to debate our different interpretations of the Gospels. I had never taken seriously religious people before and didn’t care one bit about their religion. Then, the final lesson I learned is that there is no righteous interpretation of the Gospels and that the bible is evil, soaked in blood, and filled with hate and fear. This has been invaluable for me in my journey.

    I never interpreted “hell” as a place but rather as a condition that we are not supposed to bring to Heaven with us when we pass. The “fire” is our gut, our knowing that we have transgressed, and hopefully the guilt and heartfelt inclination towards repentance and remission of transgression that the “fire” induces. “Fire” is also the truth spoken plainly to power

    Our kill count in this thread has been zero. Gnade’s kill count has been in the billions (eternal torturous process of murder for the simple act of not believing in an invisible man). Theirs has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. The unfiltered truth reveals their transgression.

    That’s been my journey here on this site.

  113. MichaelFree
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    It doesn’t matter the interpretation of the Gospels the character Jesus still doesn’t transgress in word (lying) or deed (physically violating other people or their property) in the Gospels. This is judging him the way we as human beings judge each other. All of his “beliefs” that haven’t come true ie “this generation shall not pass”… or whatever, can be attributed to not lies but just him saying his “beliefs” out loud. Never did he transgress by actually lying to another human being in regard to things of function in the world. And he always helped people who were in need.

    So I give him his due. He did what I strive to do daily.

    In other words he adhered to the Golden Rule in the Gospels.

  114. MichaelFree
    Posted April 29, 2015 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    When I say the bible is evil I have one good test: would I want my twelve year old atheist nephew to read it or even to know about it. And the answer is no. Teaching actual morals, truth, and the Golden Rule is better. And that’s the truth.

  115. MichaelFree
    Posted April 30, 2015 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    If one were to imagine witnessing someone murdering someone else they would know how horrible of a deed it was. The very worst. So what’s wrong with not believing in a murderous and torturing God? That’s what religious people need to ask themselves. And the answer is: it’s not biblical.

  116. bibelverse
    Posted April 30, 2015 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Jesus is the truth. He is totally trustworthy!

    Question: “What did Jesus mean when He said, “this generation will not pass”?”

    Answer: This quote of Jesus is found in Matthew 24:34.

    Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

    The key to understanding what Jesus means is the context; that is, we must understand the verses that are surrounding verse 34, but especially the verses prior to it. In Matthew 24:4-31,

    Jesus is speaking of future events. The generation of people living when those events occur is the generation that Jesus speaks of “not passing” until He returns.

    Jesus had already told those living during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43).

    Matthew 24-25 speaks of a future time. The word “generation” refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24-25 will occur.

    It is correct to understand “this generation” as referring to the generation in which the end-times events occur.

    Jesus is saying that, once the events of the end times begin, they will happen quickly. This concept is echoed in many other Scriptures (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20; Revelation 3:11; 22:7,12,20).

    Jesus not only fulfilled holy Scripture, but everything He teaches has or will come to pass exactly as He teaches.

  117. MichaelFree
    Posted April 30, 2015 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I said:

    “In other words he adhered to the Golden Rule in the Gospels”.

    Of course this is a belief of mine. Until I am convinced otherwise it will remain a belief of mine. But I’m open to anything.

    Take care.

  118. MichaelFree
    Posted April 30, 2015 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I also said:

    “If one were to imagine witnessing someone murdering someone else they would know how horrible of a deed it was. The very worst. So what’s wrong with not believing in a murderous and torturing God? That’s what religious people need to ask themselves. And the answer is: it’s not biblical”.

    So religious people stick with the bible. For me though, I just point out that the bible is evil, because murder, torture, and dehumanization is evil, so I stick with the truth instead, because I value the truth.

  119. bibelverse
    Posted April 30, 2015 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you seem to think as long as you are saying something it’s true, yet only the Author of truth can reveal to us whether we truly value truth.

    Do you value the truth that you are a sinner in need of God’s gift of salvation?

    Do you think you can value truth and call the holy Bible evil at the same time?

    Do you listen to what the LORD teachers about sinners, or do you run away and state that you feel offended when the LORD calls sinners like you and Richard to repentance?

    In my opinion no one, after diligent study of the Bible, can value truth without finding the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible a teacher of truth, for the condition of man’s heart is unclean, if after much study, he thinks the LORD’s thinking is unclean. Michael, your decision to value Jesus highly is praiseworthy, but you musn’t overlook the fact that everything the LORD does, He says is good.

  120. Saul
    Posted May 25, 2016 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Bibleverse (Gnade).. Do you obey Torah? Jewish laws I mean. Dietary, Appointments, Sabbaths. Those Jewish laws Orthodox Jews still do today.

Post a Comment

Your email is never published nor shared. Required fields are marked *

*
*

You may use these HTML tags and attributes <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>