Is there Evidence for God? Conversations with Wesley Steinbrink

The comment stream under my article Debunking Myself: What A Long Strange Trip Its Been diverged to the question of “evidence for God” presented by Wesley Steinbrink so I moved his comments to this new thread (link) and will be answering here.

Where is the evidence for God?

There is evidence in creation…
Kinesin – found in animal, plant, and fungus cells.
How can you explain that micro machine?
How can you explain all the newly found micro machines?

The fact that science cannot explain all facts is not evidence for any God. This is nothing but the long refuted “God of the Gaps” argument.

There is evidence in the Big Bang…
How was order to come out of such a chaotic event?
How did we end up on a co-rotational radius
(steady for millions of years) of a spiral galaxy
in between the less safe radial arms?

The Big Bang directly contradicts the creation myth in the Bible. There is, therefore, nothing more ironic (or absurd) than Bible believing Christians appealing to it as evidence for their God. The first verse is false because the earth was formed about nine billion years after the Big Bang not “in the beginning” at the same time as the “heavens.” Likewise, it is ludicrous to assert that the sun and stars were created on the “fourth day” after the supposedly simultaneous creation of the “heaven and earth” in the “beginning.” There is no concordance between science and the Biblical creation myth.

This again is nothing but a “God of the Gaps” argument. The “order” of nature is explained by the existence of natural laws. We do not need to invoke God to explain how raindrops refract light to create a rainbow. We do not need to invoke God to explain the existence of thunder and lightning. More sophisticated believers try to argue that the laws themselves are in need of explanation, but that fails because the laws can be accepted as eternal and necessary, just like the God proposed by the believers. This is a much simpler hypothesis that accounts for all the evidence so it is to be preferred over the extravagant and insufficiently motivated assumption of an anthropomorphic magic man in the sky.

There is evidence in the Big Bang…
Logical inference concerning what kind of Being
is behind / beyond the Universe and its making
see “Show Me God” by Fred Heeren

Fred Heeren asserts that “the Being must be outside of time and space” (source). He simply ignores the fact that his assertion is logically incoherent and hence impossible to believe. The problem is that any act, such as the act of creating, necessarily entails time. If God were timeless and chose to create the universe, he would have to go from a state of “not having created a universe” to a state of “having created a universe.” That implies he was not timeless and we see that Heeren’s assertion is self-contradictory and necessarily false. And even if such a God were logically possible, it would irrelevant since it is nothing like the anthropomorphic God described in the Bible.

Fred Heeren is a fascinating fellow.He is a legitimate science journalist who has had articles published in Scientific American, Nature, the Smithsonian, and other prominent publications. He is an old earth creationist firmly convinced by the evidence for evolution. He the president of evolutionstory.com (Day Star Research). He wrote a booklet called Ending the War on Science and Culture: When Christians Act Childish, Everyone Loses.

My work on science news stories has given me the opportunity to become acquainted with the work of cosmologists, paleontologists, and biologists around the world. It’s also helped me see the way their discoveries are misunderstood by those who view them as a threat to their faith. Having seen the fossils coming out of the ground for myself (seeing, for example, hominids demonstrating increasing cranial capacities over time), I have firsthand knowledge of how we know what we know about hominid evolution. At the same time, having once been “grounded,” first in young earth creationism and later in Intelligent Design thinking myself, I also have firsthand knowledge of the struggles of religious conservatives. But I’ve learned how unnecessary those struggles are. Now I’m excited about getting the word out about what I’ve learned—from God’s world, from God’s Word, and even from God’s atheists.

It is quite ironic that anyone would cite Fred Heeren in support of the idea that science provides “evidence for God” since Fred Heeren says exactly the opposite. Here is the description of his beliefs (source):

Heeren believes that people of faith should not try to scientifically prove God. After all, if science had such a power, what worth would faith have? Heeren says that science is powerless to coerce either belief or unbelief. But the sense of wonder it excites in people of all beliefs may inspire them to further investigations beyond science, in philosophical or religious realms.

Returning to Wesley’s comments:

There is evidence in the longevity of the Israelites…

How did they survive as a people without a nation?

It is exceedingly ironic to appeal to the nightmarish history of Israel as proof that their loving and trustworthy God has been watching over them! This video says it all: Inmates in Auschwitz put God on Trial.

I see no evidence that requires a supernatural explanation. Believers simply cherry pick the Bible for quotes from God that support what they want to believe while ignoring all the failed promises. For example, the Bible quotes God as plainly stating that there never would be a time when a son of David was not sitting on the throne of Israel:

Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, ‘then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. (Jeremiah 33:20-21)

That promise has failed for over two thousand years. And there are hundreds of similar failures. For example, Hugh Ross (another old earth creationist who makes very similar claims as Heeren) , asserts that there are “about two thousand prophecies fulfilled to the letter – no errors.” His assertion is literally insane (there’s no nice way to say it), as I proved in my article Two Thousand Reasons to Believe that Dr. Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible. Simply stated, it is simply irrational to believe the Bible is trustworthy.

There is evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls…
They contain Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 with prophecy
of Christ that Jesus could not fulfill by Himself.
Consider that the Dead Sea Scrolls were carbon
dated placing them before Jesus was on earth.

The fact that those stories were written before Christ proves nothing. There was nothing to stop the gospel writers from making up stories to fit bits and pieces they cherry picked from the Old Testament. For example, we have no evidence that the Roman soldiers actually divided his garment. And many stories are obvious inventions based on elementary misunderstanding of the Hebrew text, such as the riding on multiple donkeys into Jerusalem and the “virgin” in Isaiah 7:14, which is an exceedingly egregious case of cherry picking and ripping text out of context.

There is evidence in the Resurrection being true…
Would all the disciples die for a lie?
The Roman soldiers were very practiced at crucifixion.
Many saw Him and illusions are not shared by many people.
The extra-Biblical writings tell the story of the Gospels
in the main details.
Many have tried to disprove the Resurrection and have not
been able to. see “More Evidence that Demands a Verdict”
by Josh McDowell – also see “Never Thirsty.org – Historical
Quotes about Jesus”
for what can be seen by extra-Biblical
sources about Jesus.

As explained in my previous post, you are simply assuming the Bible is true to prove the Bible is true. There is no evidence of any kind that there were any apostles going about Jerusalem preaching Christ crucified shortly after the purported event. Those stories were made up many decades later. Paul, writing in the 50’s and 60’s, shows no knowledge of most of the biographical events reported in the Gospels. Joseph Smith shows how a conman could make up a religion out of whole cloth and now there are millions of deluded Mormons. If he could do that in an age of photographs, newspapers, and fact checkers, why would anyone believe what the followers of Jesus wrote decades after the supposed events? The New Testament is a collection of religious tracts written for the express purpose of convincing people to believe, just like the Book of Mormon and other writings of Joseph Smith. Arguments like McDowell’s are utterly worthless in light of these facts.

There is evidence from the conscience that we are each given.

see “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis

The moral argument for God is a total failure. Morality is objective because it is based on reason. It has nothing to do with any God. Even if God existed, morality would exist independently of God. I develop my moral theory in a number of articles:

The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality

Why Most Animals Are Not Philosophers: Fatal Flaws in Dr. Craig’s Moral Argument for God

Morality is Objective, like a Pair of Scales: Another Fatal Flaw in Dr. Craig’s Moral Argument for God

There is evidence in this – Sincerely ask the Lord Jesus to make himself real to you.
You will see unmistakable results.

Been there, done that. I was a fundamentalist Christian for 17 years who described himself as a “blood-bought Bible-believing born-again non-denominational Trinitarian Christian.” I prayed every day for many years. Contrary to your assertion, the results were the essence of error, since they were based fundamentally on cognitive errors such as cherry picking, confirmation bias, and believing in things for which there were no evidence.

 

 

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380 Comments

  1. Posted December 6, 2014 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    I would recommend that you visit my website search.inallearnest.com – Especially the section Ultimate Search.

    I also have a BS in Geology/Geophysics with a Minor in Applied Mathematics, (with courses in computer programming also), so have some in common with you.

  2. Posted December 6, 2014 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    I would recommend that you visit my website search.inallearnest.com – Especially the section Ultimate Search.

    I also have a BS in Geology/Geophysics with a Minor in Applied Mathematics, (with courses in computer programming also), so have some in common with you.

    Hi Wesley,

    I congratulate you on a well constructed site, but unfortunately cannot say the same about the content. I think you may want to reconsider the sites you link to. I went to the “Ultimate Search” page and found links to some of the most abysmal and easily refuted Christian apologetics sites, such as “God and Science” hosted by Rich Deem. I discuss his errors in an article called The Art of Rationalization: A Case Study of Christian Apologist Rich Deem. And I note that you link to a site that claims to have found Noah’s Ark, and other sites that try to use mitochondrial Eve as evidence of the Biblical Eve, and on and on. It looks like an intellectual travesty to me – a collection of the least reliable information on the internet.

  3. Posted December 7, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for the feedback. Did you consider the Discovery Institute material – Darwin’s Doubt and have you read Josh McDowell’s More Evidence that demands a verdict – especially the material about the Resurrection?

    I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power unto salvation.

  4. Posted December 7, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Furthermore beyond evolution – what is the latest theory on the origin of life – as I do not know of any that will stand up.

    I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power unto salvation.

  5. Posted December 9, 2014 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for the feedback. Did you consider the Discovery Institute material – Darwin’s Doubt and have you read Josh McDowell’s More Evidence that demands a verdict – especially the material about the Resurrection?

    I have no respect for the Discovery Institute. Intelligent Design has been tested and rejected as religious creationism masquerading as science. Google the Dover trial and read the 130 page judgment.

    Josh McDowell’s arguments are abysmal, like all Christian apologetics. He merely assumes the Bible is true and then uses that to argue the Bible is true. It’s really quite absurd. We have no evidence that there were any apostles going around Jerusalem preaching the empty tomb immediately after the purported event. Those stories were made up many decades later when the Gospels were written. Joseph Smith shows how a conman could make up a religion out of whole cloth and now there are millions of deluded Mormons. If he could do that in an age of photographs, newspapers, and fact checkers, why would anyone believe what the followers of Jesus wrote decades after the supposed events? The New Testament is a collection of religious tracts written for the express purpose of convincing people to believe, just like the Book of Mormon and other writings of Joseph Smith. Arguments like McDowell’s are utterly worthless in light of these facts.

  6. Posted December 9, 2014 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Furthermore beyond evolution – what is the latest theory on the origin of life – as I do not know of any that will stand up.

    You don’t know the origin of life either, so the point is moot. You can’t successfully argue for the existence of God by appealing to things that nobody knows.

  7. Posted December 9, 2014 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    I agree that the Theomatics is foolishness – nothing more than contrived coincidences. I said the same thing when that book, The Bible Code, came out. The Bible Wheel that you came up with is nice, but proves nothing – as you well know. The plain text is more than convicting enough. Proofs of truth come through three methods, science, historical methods, and court room examination of evidence. Numerology is none of these. Extra Biblical material, science, archeology, logic, and historical methods back up belief in Christ as God.

  8. Posted December 9, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    As concerns Intelligent Design,
    Intelligent Design makes many great arguments. I try to read all sides before making a judgment. Whether they have an agenda or not is beside the point that there are serious questions concerning the Theory of Evolution. Evolution is not a fact – it has never been declared a Law like Mendel’s Laws. That is it cannot be reproduced in the laboratory to show that it is true. Scientists at the same time bring their own biases into the laboratory. Suppositions which are precursors to theories have to be based on some type of assumption. More often than not these get influenced by inherent biases of the scientist. Eventually truth wins out. There are serious issues with the Theory of Evolution if scientist would be objective. There are many scientists who question the Theory of Evolution.

    As concerns Moromonism,
    There will always be some that are gullible to certain attempts to deceive. There are many cults out there. Their disciples are told to feel a warm feeling for confirmation. Christianity is based in history. There is no archeology evidence for their Mormon belief. There is no genetic evidence for their Mormon belief. There is constant changing of the requirements. Eventually the truth comes out – and it has with the truth about the founder of the Mormon church.

    As concerns Josh McDowell,
    There are a great many extra biblical sources in his writings also. You are not one to question that Jesus existed are you? How much of the extra Biblical writings have you read to compare? Have you read them all? They all point to Jesus and the same Bible story that is in the Gospels. There is the question of why the Disciples would die for a lie. There is the question of what was the dramatic turn around of Saul becoming Paul. There is the history of the crucifixion and the brutality of the Roman Empire. What part does the Dead Sea Scrolls have to play in the discussion?

  9. Posted December 10, 2014 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    As concerns Intelligent Design,
    Intelligent Design makes many great arguments. I try to read all sides before making a judgment. Whether they have an agenda or not is beside the point that there are serious questions concerning the Theory of Evolution. Evolution is not a fact –

    Intelligent design makes no good arguments. It is nothing but creationism masquerading as science.

    Your assertion that evolution is not a fact is on the same level as saying that the earth is flat. It is impossible for an informed person to deny the fact of evolution. The fossil record proves that new species arose over time. It’s fine if you want to say that “God did it.” That would be your “theory” of evolution. But you cannot deny that the evolution actually happened without revealing that you are ignorant of the evidence (or in denial of it).

    Likewise, the DNA evidence strongly supports the idea of common descent.

    As concerns Moromonism,
    There will always be some that are gullible to certain attempts to deceive. There are many cults out there. Their disciples are told to feel a warm feeling for confirmation. Christianity is based in history. There is no archeology evidence for their Mormon belief. There is no genetic evidence for their Mormon belief. There is constant changing of the requirements. Eventually the truth comes out – and it has with the truth about the founder of the Mormon church.

    There is a deep irony in your appeal to the DNA evidence that disproves the Mormon claim that the Americas were populated by Hebrews because the DNA evidence also disproves the Christian claim that all humans descended from a single pair of humans (Adam and Eve).

    Your appear to be picking and choosing which scientific results you accept or reject according to which fit your religious dogmas.

  10. Posted December 10, 2014 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    I agree that the Theomatics is foolishness – nothing more than contrived coincidences. I said the same thing when that book, The Bible Code, came out. The Bible Wheel that you came up with is nice, but proves nothing – as you well know. The plain text is more than convicting enough. Proofs of truth come through three methods, science, historical methods, and court room examination of evidence. Numerology is none of these. Extra Biblical material, science, archeology, logic, and historical methods back up belief in Christ as God.

    The Bible has been debunked for many years. It is filled with errors, contradictions, absurdities, pagan mythologies, and moral abominations attributed to god. Contrary to your assertion, the facts prove absolutely that belief in Christ as God is utter folly.

    Christian apologetics is an abyss of absurdity. I know of no apologist with intellectual integrity. Case in point: Dr. Hugh Ross asserts that there have been “about 2000 prophecies fulfilled to the letter – with no error.” I exposed the rank absurdity of his assertion in this article:

    Two Thousand Reasons To Believe that Dr. Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible

    I explain how the attempt to justify falsehood literally disintegrates the mind of the believer in this article:

    The Art of Rationalization: A Case Study of Christian Apologist Rich Deem

  11. Posted December 11, 2014 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Intelligent design makes no good arguments. It is nothing but creationism masquerading as science.

    Intelligent design leaves the designer up to you. “Yet the living results of natural selectioin overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” (Dawkins) – thus denying that there is a Creator. This is just as bad as some of the first creationists that looked on the fossils and called them creations of the devil. Both are looking past the evidence.

    Richard Dawkins – The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence Reveals a Universe Without Design – New York, Norton, 1987

    I see design and look for the Designer and have found Him.

  12. Posted December 11, 2014 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    The Bible has been debunked for many years. It is filled with errors, contradictions, absurdities, pagan mythologies, and moral abominations attributed to god. Contrary to your assertion, the facts prove absolutely that belief in Christ as God is utter folly.

    For one thing, If you don’t believe Jesus ever existed you could win $1000 at King David 8 If you believe as the movie Zeitgeist does (which that sounds very similar to what you are saying), you could win another $1000 at the same website by debunking that also. So far no one has claimed either of those prizes.

  13. Rose
    Posted December 12, 2014 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Westley said “I see design and look for the Designer and have found Him.”

    How do you know the identity of this “Designer” when there is not one shred of evidence for his existence?

  14. Posted December 13, 2014 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    How do you know the identity of this “Designer” when there is not one shred of evidence for his existence?

    Where is the evidence for God?

    There is evidence in creation…
    Kinesin – found in animal, plant, and fungus cells.
    How can you explain that micro machine?
    How can you explain all the newly found micro machines?

    There is evidence in the Big Bang…
    How was order to come out of such a chaotic event?
    How did we end up on a co-rotational radius
    (steady for millions of years) of a spiral galaxy
    in between the less safe radial arms?

    There is evidence in the Big Bang…
    Logical inference concerning what kind of Being
    is behind / beyond the Universe and its making
    see “Show Me God” by Fred Heeren

    There is evidence in the longevity of the Israelites…
    How did they survive as a people without a nation?

    There is evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls…
    They contain Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 with prophecy
    of Christ that Jesus could not fulfill by Himself.
    Consider that the Dead Sea Scrolls were carbon
    dated placing them before Jesus was on earth.

    There is evidence in the Resurrection being true…
    Would all the disciples die for a lie?
    The Roman soldiers were very practiced at crucifixion.
    Many saw Him and illusions are not shared by many people.
    The extra-Biblical writings tell the story of the Gospels
    in the main details.
    Many have tried to disprove the Resurrection and have not
    been able to. see “More Evidence that Demands a Verdict”
    by Josh McDowell – also see “Never Thirsty.org – Historical
    Quotes about Jesus”
    for what can be seen by extra-Biblical
    sources about Jesus.

    There is evidence from the conscience that we are each given.
    see “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis

    There is evidence in this – Sincerely ask the Lord Jesus to make himself real to you.
    You will see unmistakable results.

  15. Rose
    Posted December 13, 2014 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Sorry Wesley, nothing you have presented stands as evidence.

    1. There is no evidence in creation for the Biblegod! Just because there are unanswered questions as to the origins of life, or the workings of cells, is in no way evidence for the Biblegod.
    2. There is no evidence in the Big Bang for the Biblegod! Just because science has not determined how the universe began, is in no way evidence for the Biblegod.
    3. The longevity of the Jewish race is not evidence for the Biblegod! There are many other races that are just as old or older than the Jews.
    4. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are not evidence for the Biblegod! Those verses are vague and random and are not evidence for anything except the imaginings of the human mind.
    5. The resurrection is not evidence for the Biblegod! The only accounts of the resurrection are contained in the Gospels, which were written decades after the supposed event. There is no way to prove or disprove the resurrection, because there is no evidence to examine … words that were written down decades after the event cannot be used to prove anything, there must be other corroborating extra-biblical facts to confirm such a claim. Even the life of Jesus has no historical support outside of what is written in the Bible.

    All in all there is not one shred of evidence to support the existence of the Biblegod! Unanswered questions and mysteries are not considered evidence and cannot support any of the claims made in the Bible about its god.

    Kind regards,
    Rose

  16. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    (steady for millions of years)

    Correction: steady for 4.5 billions of years

  17. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    2. There is no evidence in the Big Bang for the Biblegod! Just because science has not determined how the universe began, is in no way evidence for the Biblegod.

    From this I can tell that you haven’t even tried to get or read the book to make an objective judgement. You are just wanting to have your own conclusions from your own mind.

  18. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Even the life of Jesus has no historical support outside of what is written in the Bible.

    Again you are not making the effort to go to the information provided.

  19. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Even the life of Jesus has no historical support outside of what is written in the Bible.

    Here is the Link for those others reading that want to actually go to the website and find out for themselves:

    http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/historical-secular-quotes-about-jesus/main.html>Historical Quotes about Christ

  20. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Correction:
    Quotes about Christ

  21. Rose
    Posted December 13, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Wesley,

    I have not read Fred Heeren’s book, but I have read some of his articles and an in-depth interview on his beliefs. The issue I have with Fred Heeren is not his belief in the need for a creator, but in his belief that the Biblegod is that creator. It is one thing to posit the need for an intelligence behind the creation of the universe and quite another to posit that the intelligence is the Biblegod.

    The god of the Bible is a barbaric and misogynistic deity who delights in violence and cruelty, this is clear evidence that he was made up in the minds of primitive men. I see no problem with believing that there could be an intelligent designer behind the creation of the universe, the problem I have is with positing the Biblegod as that creator.

    Kind regards,
    Rose

  22. Posted December 13, 2014 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Even the life of Jesus has no historical support outside of what is written in the Bible.

    Here is the Link for those others reading that want to actually go to the website and find out for themselves:

    Quotes about Christ

    You didn’t answer Rose’s comment. She said “the life of Jesus has no historical support outside of what is written in the Bible.” Her statement is true. The quotes on that page you linked are not about the historical facts of the life of Jesus, but rather the beliefs of the early Christians. They tell us nothing about how those beliefs arose. It may be that the religion was made up out of whole cloth like Mormonism. How would anyone know? The Gospels are religious tracts produced by the Jesus cult. Would you accept Mormon religious tracts as valid evidence of the life of Joseph Smith? These are the facts you must deal with if you want to argue for the historical authenticity of the life of Christ.

    Furthermore, the fact that Paul was utterly ignorant of almost all historical details of the life of Jesus as reported in the Gospels gives very good reasons to believe that the Gospel stories are mostly, if not entirely, fictional. Here is a short list of some of the primary events of which Paul was ignorant (from the thread The Apostle Paul was a cult leader on my forum):

    THE IGNORANCE OF PAUL: Things he didn’t know about Jesus

    1. No mention of the virgin birth.
    2. No mention of Bethlehem, where Jesus was supposedly born.
    3. No mention of Nazareth, where Jesus supposedly grew up.
    4. No mention of the title “Son of Man.”
    5. No mention of the title “Jesus of Nazareth.” (This is particularly revealing since in Acts Jesus supposedly told him directly “I am Jesus of Nazareth.”)
    6. No mention of the title “Son of David.”
    7. No mention of Mary the mother of Jesus
    8. No mention of Joseph
    9. No mention of John the Baptist
    10. No mention of the baptism of Jesus
    11. No mention of his miracles, such as raising the dead, walking on water, feeding the five thousand.
    12. No mention of the Olivet Discourse
    13. No mention of Mary Magdalene
    14. No mention of the triumphal entry into Jerusalem
    15. No mention of Pontius Pilate
    16. No mention of the Garden of Gethsemane
    17. No mention of the burial by Nicodemus
    18. No mention of the empty tomb
    19. No mention of the Transfiguration
    20. No mention of the Judas Iscariot
    21. No mention of the Lord’s Prayer (also missing from Mark)
    22. No mention of the Sermon on the Mount

    So the question now is this: Does the “Jesus” of Paul have anything to do with the “historical Jesus” of the Gospels?

  23. Posted December 13, 2014 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    The fact that science cannot explain all facts is not evidence for any God. This is nothing but the long refuted “God of the Gaps” argument.

    However irreducible complexity could be evidence for God, but only because the other explanation would be Evolution which falls apart when irreducible complexity is found.

    God of the Gaps – now that you mentioned it:

    I don’t believe in a God of the Gaps. That is looking at things all wrong. Just because we know how something operates – say the sun. Does not make us necessarily able to control it. It also definitely take away the wonder that it was designed by God for our use, entertainment, or wonder.

    There are definitely times when created is the proper solution to some phenomena. This does not preclude a scientist from trying to find a natural way that it was created. It does not preclude a scientist from trying to explain how it operates. When something has irreducible complexity it is a candidate for being created.

    Creation and science are not in conflict all the time. It is mostly if not only when there is an issue of origin that creation and science can come into conflict. When scientists have a belief in a multi-verse instead of a universe, they have crossed an invisible line. They are assuming a kind of creation – at the very least they are assuming without any evidence at all to back them up. This is even more than a thinking Christian does. A thinking Christian does not just take a leap of faith without evidence to back them up.

  24. Posted December 13, 2014 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    The quotes on that page you linked are not about the historical facts of the life of Jesus, but rather the beliefs of the early Christians.

    You gloss over things here:

    ” Author’s Background
    Cornelius Tacitus (56-120 AD) has been called the greatest historian on ancient Rome. He lived during the reign of several Roman emperors and was a Roman historian and a governor of Asia [Turkey] in AD 112. He wrote two major works: Annals and the Histories. The following is a quote from the Annals.

    Reference To Jesus Christ
    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. – Annals 15.44

    Conclusion
    This reference reveals several key things:
    1) Christ lived during the reign of Tiberius (AD 14-37).
    2) Pontius Pilate put him to death.
    3) The word “superstition” suggests a religion.
    4) Christ had followers who were named Christians.
    5) The Christians suffered under Nero and they were hated by others.”

    This is just one of the pages and 1), 2), 3) are definitely about Christ in specific historically. But one could make the point that the characteristics of the Christians are also delineated in extra-Biblical material.

  25. Posted December 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    THE IGNORANCE OF PAUL: Things he didn’t know about Jesus

    Just because Paul does not mention those things does not necessarily mean that he was ignorant of them. That would be an argument from silence which I am always suspect.

  26. Posted December 13, 2014 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    The quotes on that page you linked are not about the historical facts of the life of Jesus, but rather the beliefs of the early Christians.

    You gloss over things here:

    “Author’s Background
    Cornelius Tacitus (56-120 AD) has been called the greatest historian on ancient Rome. He lived during the reign of several Roman emperors and was a Roman historian and a governor of Asia [Turkey] in AD 112. He wrote two major works: Annals and the Histories. The following is a quote from the Annals.

    Good catch. My comment may not have been entirely accurate. Perhaps I should have said “All but one of the legitimate quotes on that page you linked are not about the historical facts of the life of Jesus, but rather the beliefs of the early Christians.” I say “legitimate” because the quotes from Josephus almost certainly include Christian interpolations and so cannot be used as evidence. I say “perhaps” because it is possible that the quote from Tacitus could have been hearsay he heard from Christians or it may have included a Christian interpolation. The implications of that tiny fragment of evidence are disputed by scholars.

    Now for the sake of argument, let us suppose that Christ actually was crucified by Pontius Pilate like many other first century Jewish zealots. Does this give us any reason to believe the miraculous stories in the Gospels? We have a lot of evidence concerning the life of Joseph Smith. Does that give us any reason to believe the religion he invented?

  27. Posted December 13, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Just because Paul does not mention those things does not necessarily mean that he was ignorant of them. That would be an argument from silence which I am always suspect.

    Of course you are suspect of “arguments from silence.” I would be too if I were promoting belief in a God who is so silent as to be indistinguishable from a God who does not exist.

    I agree that Paul’s silence does not “necessarily” imply that he was ignorant of those things but it does strongly suggest it. And it certainly gives the rational skeptic a good reason to doubt that the stories existed at the time Paul wrote. The evidence suggests that they were probably made up many decades after the fact which is the opinion of most scholars. The late date coheres with the fact that they appear to be religious fiction.

  28. Posted December 13, 2014 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    However irreducible complexity could be evidence for God, but only because the other explanation would be Evolution which falls apart when irreducible complexity is found.

    Behe’s favorite example of “irreducible complexity” was totally demolished in the Dover trial. He had his day in court and failed miserably. The judge concluded that Intelligent Design is not science at all, but rather religious creationism masquerading as science.

    There are definitely times when created is the proper solution to some phenomena.

    Yes, of course. Take for example a car or airplane. We can tell they were created by intelligent agents. Nothing in nature has been proven to be designed like that. You have presented no evidence supporting your assertion.

  29. Posted December 13, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Just because Paul does not mention those things does not necessarily mean that he was ignorant of them. That would be an argument from silence which I am always suspect.

    I just noticed a profound inconsistency in your thinking. One of your first comments on my site was an “argument from silence.” You asked me about the latest “theory of the origin of life” because you “do not know of any that will stand up.” What were you trying to imply? The fact that science cannot yet explain the origin of life says absolutely nothing about whether it occurred through natural processes. The silence of science on this point does not give any evidence for the existence of God. We haven’t even known about DNA for a hundred years yet.

  30. MichaelFree
    Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I said I wasn’t going to comment here anymore, but here I am, so I apologize.

    No one is ever going to prove that God deity exists without God deity actually revealing itself as God deity for all to see. End of story. A child knows this. One can argue about the wonders of nature but God requires God.

    An “outside this known reality” sentient intelligence and/or deity with intelligence that can traverse and manifest itself on the human plane for all to see is only provable when everyone sees it actually manifested.

    What if this happens and the messenger cloaked in light speaks of righteousness and not falsely dividing people on the basis of gender, religion, atheism, race, or sexuality, that once you love everyone the same as everyone else then you know the heart of the most high so for everyone give them their dignity? Many would want to kill him/her for this blasphemy yet all he/she said was to be good to one another and in addition would have revealed to them their own salvation for which they should be grateful. They’d want to throw stones. That’s what many a religion does. It kills and there is no life in it.

    They had the right to kill Jesus in accordance with the OT (broke Sabbath, said he was I AM, etc). Just about everyone that hears the story of Jesus Christ believes in his innocence, they believe in him, that he didn’t deserve what they did to him, that he was innocent. The Spirit that reveals his complete innocence, regardless of what the book says, is the Spirit of Truth, and it overrides the book. It’s called our humanity. We as humans generally despise lying and thefts and assaults upon people. All of which they did to Jesus and which Jesus never did to anyone.

  31. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    I said I wasn’t going to comment here anymore, but here I am, so I apologize.

    Hey there Michael,

    No need to apologize. The only issue I had with some of your previous comments is that they had nothing to do with the topic of the post and so interrupted the flow of the conversation. I welcome you comments that are on topic.

    No one is ever going to prove that God deity exists without God deity actually revealing itself as God deity for all to see. End of story. A child knows this. One can argue about the wonders of nature but God requires God.

    I agree. But for many years I promoted the Bible Wheel as “proof” of that God, and so now I feel it is my duty to clean up the mess I made as much as possible.

    They had the right to kill Jesus in accordance with the OT (broke Sabbath, said he was I AM, etc). Just about everyone that hears the story of Jesus Christ believes in his innocence, they believe in him, that he didn’t deserve what they did to him, that he was innocent. The Spirit that reveals his complete innocence, regardless of what the book says, is the Spirit of Truth, and it overrides the book. It’s called our humanity. We as humans generally despise lying and thefts and assaults upon people. All of which they did to Jesus and which Jesus never did to anyone.

    Good point. I think that that one of the primary reasons many people find Jesus appealing. In as much as he reflects our innate humanity and love he gives people an “icon” to focus their good intentions. That’s a very positive aspect of the religion.

  32. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    The Big Bang directly contradicts the creation myth in the Bible. There is, therefore, nothing more ironic (or absurd) than Bible believing Christians appealing to it as evidence for their God. The first verse is false because the earth was formed about nine billion years after the Big Bang not “in the beginning” at the same time as the “heavens.” Likewise, it is ludicrous to assert that the sun and stars were created on the “fourth day” after the supposedly simultaneous creation of the “heaven and earth” in the “beginning.” There is no concordance between science and the Biblical creation myth.

    Young Earth vs. Old Earth Creation:

    The bottom line is that the gospel is true whether the Earth is 6000 years old or 6 million years old or 6 billion years old. This should not be a dividing factor of Christians.

    For that matter God could have created it all at once.

    We don’t know how old the earth is because we can’t totally trust rock dating methods. – This from Shattering the Myths of Darwinism by Richard Milton.

    There are good discussions on both sides. I see the evidence of the Nova’s and realize that the timing for such an event at such a distance requires a great amount of time. If this is not the case then either the speed of light was greater in the past (not probable) or the light stream and the effect of a Nova was created all at once (God misleading – not probable). The most logical position is to realize the truth of the long time period and look to see if that conflicts with the Bible. It does not as the Hebrew word yom is used for day and that word gives great latitude.

    Oh, and the Lights shown through on the fourth day. Day Age Analysis from GodandScience.org

    References:

    Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective

    What is Old Earth Creationism? – from GotQuestions.org

    A Biblical Case for Old-Earth Creationism – from GodandScience.org

  33. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and the Lights shown through on the fourth day. Day Age Analysis from GodandScience.org

    Wesley,

    It appears you are not paying attention. In my first response to you, I wrote this:

    Hi Wesley,

    I congratulate you on a well constructed site, but unfortunately cannot say the same about the content. I think you may want to reconsider the sites you link to. I went to the “Ultimate Search” page and found links to some of the most abysmal and easily refuted Christian apologetics sites, such as “God and Science” hosted by Rich Deem. I discuss his errors in an article called The Art of Rationalization: A Case Study of Christian Apologist Rich Deem. And I note that you link to a site that claims to have found Noah’s Ark, and other sites that try to use mitochondrial Eve as evidence of the Biblical Eve, and on and on. It looks like an intellectual travesty to me – a collection of the least reliable information on the internet.

    Why are you now posting links to Rich Deem’s site? I’ve totally debunked him! I get the impression you did not read my article. Here it is again:

    The Art of Rationalization: A Case Study of Christian Apologist Rich Deem

    And you linked to Hugh Ross’ site, which I also debunked in this article:

    Two Thousand Reasons to Believe that Dr. Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible

    I’ve presented these links to you before and you totally ignored them. I’m getting the impression that you are not really very interested in the truth at all.

    The other creationist sites you linked are equally absurd and filled with errors. Don’t you get it? The fact that you need to post links to corrupt creationist sites that have been thoroughly debunked only confirms that you have no legitimate science backing up your claims. You really need to think about this.

  34. Posted December 13, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    The bottom line is that the gospel is true whether the Earth is 6000 years old or 6 million years old or 6 billion years old. This should not be a dividing factor of Christians.

    The Gospel is true? Why would anyone believe that? The Gospel is not even well defined. The most devout Bible believers cannot even agree if Jesus was human or divine or some combination. Have you never noticed all the crazy disagreements between the Catholics and the Protestants and the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons and the Seventh Day Adventists, Calvinists vs. Arminians, ad infinitum? Everyone just makes up their own religion, and that’s how it’s been since the beginning when Paul fought against other versions of Christianity popular at the time. The fact that his version won looks like a fluke of history.

  35. Posted December 14, 2014 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    The only accounts of the resurrection are contained in the Gospels, which were written decades after the supposed event.

    The Opinions of the Experts
    The testimonies of some of the world’s leading experts can be called upon to further verify the authenticity and reliability of the New Testament manuscripts. Dr John A. T. Robinson, one of England’s leading New Testament critics, came to the conclusion that the entire New Testament was written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. (65)
    Sir William Ramsey was one of the world’s greatest archeaologists. His thorough investigation into Luke’s Book of Acts led him to the conclusion that Acts was a mid-first century document that was historically reliable. (66)
    William F. Albright is one of the world’s foremost biblical archaeologists. He states that there is no ecidential basis for dating any New Testament book after AD 80. (67)
    Sir Frederic Kenyon was one of the world’s leading experts on ancient manuscripts. His research led him to conclude that the New Testament is essentially the same as when it was origianally written. (68)
    Millar Burrows, the great archaeologist from Yale, stated that there is no doubt that archaeological research has strengthened confidence in the historical reliability of the Bible. Burrows also stated that the skepticism of liberal scholars is based on their prejudice against the supernatural, rather than on the evidence itself. (69)
    F. F. Bruce, New Testament scholar from Manchester University in England, stated that if the New Testament writings had been secular works, no scholar would question their authenticity. Bruce believes that the evidence for the New Testament outweighs the evidence for many classical works which have never been doubted. (70)
    Bruce Metzger is a famous textual critic from Princeton. He has stated the that New Testament has more evidence in its favor than any other writings from ancient Greek or Latin literature. (71)
    It is clear that the evidence favors the authenticity and reliability of the New Testament. Scholars who do not allow their bias against the supernatural to influence their conclusions have recognised this fact. Scholars who reject the reliability of the New Testament do so because they chose to go against the ovewhelming evidence. However, such a rejection is not true scholarship; it is an aprori assumption.

    (65) McDowell, Evidence, 63
    (66) Roy Abraham Varghese, ed. The Intellectuals Speak Out About God (Dallas: Lewis and Stanley Publishers, 1984) 267-268.
    (67) Ibid., 267.
    (68) Ibid., 274.
    (69) McDowell, Evidence, 66.
    (70) Varghese, 274.
    (71) Ibid., 205.

    from “Evidence for Faith – Essays in Christian Apologetics” by Phil Fernandes, Erik Stenerson, and Gary Tronson – IBD Press, Bremerton, WA

  36. Mark Scholten
    Posted December 15, 2014 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    The age of the universe is based upon Einsteins Relativity Theory. As all scientists know Einsteins relativity theory has some serious shortcomings/paradoxes.
    A mathematic guy, Ir. Rob Roodenburg, claims he has fixed them. See: http://www.loop-doctor.nl/ or read his book: Repairing Special Relativity, Quantum Relativity (for Speed). He concludes that the big bang never took place, and that the universe is not expanding.
    Because of all this errors in scientific theories and scientists who cannot agree over the basic laws that made up the universe, I decided to believe in Someone else.
    As the speed of light determines space and time I conclude that genesis 1:3 is correct in saying that the first thing God created was light. And God is indeed out of space and time. While we live within space and time, we will never be able to prove His existence.

  37. Posted December 15, 2014 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    I just noticed a profound inconsistency in your thinking. One of your first comments on my site was an “argument from silence.” You asked me about the latest “theory of the origin of life” because you “do not know of any that will stand up.” What were you trying to imply? The fact that science cannot yet explain the origin of life says absolutely nothing about whether it occurred through natural processes. The silence of science on this point does not give any evidence for the existence of God. We haven’t even known about DNA for a hundred years yet.

    Good Point. I hadn’t noticed it as such, but now that you mention it – it is one. Therefore, it does require more elaboration.
    Here are some quotes from good sources (PhD level mostly) to consider:
    Quotes – mostly from Biologists involved with Chemistry – about Creation and Evolution

  38. Posted December 15, 2014 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    I’ve presented these links to you before and you totally ignored them. I’m getting the impression that you are not really very interested in the truth at all.

    I have to admit that I gave them a cursory look – and I need to give them detailed attention. That I will do and get back to you. At the same time just because I quote a website or book for one argument does not necessarily mean that I agree with everything that they have to say. As far as interested in the truth, I ran across a website that debunked Ron Wyatt’s supposed finding of Noah’s Ark. Noah’s Ark may still be found, but that geologic formation is not it. So, I have said so on my website, Search.InAllEarnest.com under Ultimate Search.

  39. Posted December 15, 2014 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    The age of the universe is based upon Einsteins Relativity Theory. As all scientists know Einsteins relativity theory has some serious shortcomings/paradoxes.
    A mathematic guy, Ir. Rob Roodenburg, claims he has fixed them. See: http://www.loop-doctor.nl/ or read his book: Repairing Special Relativity, Quantum Relativity (for Speed). He concludes that the big bang never took place, and that the universe is not expanding.

    That would be of good news to those scientists of an Evolutionary belief because then there would not be a beginning to the Universe. However:

    As early as 1914, American astronomer Vesto Slipher announced that almost all the nebulae (as the galaxies were then called) he had measured were receding from us at high velocities. – “Show Me God” by Fred Heeren – DayStar 1997, page 140. This is the red shift. It gets worse, the stars farther show the more shift. The stars fartherest show the most shift. Also, there was found millions of light years – all around us in every direction – were dangerous things – Gamma Ray Bursts and Quasars (stars with the brightness of a whole galaxy). We are essentially in the center of the stars moving away from us. (If you can say that within Relativity – perhaps this other could better define the center of the Universe).
    Anyway, any theory that the Universe is static must also explain these phenomena.

    Because of all this errors in scientific theories and scientists who cannot agree over the basic laws that made up the universe, I decided to believe in Someone else.

    I am glad that you believe in God. I do understand frustration with science at times. The interpretation of scripture that is from God ultimately will coincide with science.

    As the speed of light determines space and time I conclude that genesis 1:3 is correct in saying that the first thing God created was light. And God is indeed out of space and time. While we live within space and time, we will never be able to prove His existence.

    I am not necessarily to prove God’s existence. However, I am to give a defense of the hope that I have within me. We can agree without coming to the same conclusions about Genesis.

  40. Posted December 15, 2014 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    The Gospel is not even well defined.

    Here is the Protestant gospel – the Gospel – the Good News that I proclaim – that is Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Congregational, Seventh Day Adventist, Assembly of God, Baptist, Missionary Alliance, Christian, Foursquare, Church of God, etc.
    (Not included in Protestant gospel would be Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Science, The Way and others)

    In summary, what is the gospel? It is the message of the good news of salvation, the word of truth offered to mankind by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is a message not only of eternal life, but one that encompasses the total plan of God to redeem people from the ravages of sin, death, Satan, and the curse that now covers the earth. – Bible.org

    What of Catholics?
    What is the difference between Catholics and Protestants?

  41. Posted December 16, 2014 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    I just noticed a profound inconsistency in your thinking. One of your first comments on my site was an “argument from silence.”

    Good Point. I hadn’t noticed it as such, but now that you mention it – it is one. Therefore, it does require more elaboration.

    Hey there Wesley,

    I’ve only got a few minutes before work, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you for admitting that point. It shows that you are interested in authentic discourse, and that’s very valuable and rather rare in the wild world of the internet.

    Here are some quotes from good sources (PhD level mostly) to consider:
    Quotes – mostly from Biologists involved with Chemistry – about Creation and Evolution

    Those quotes are mostly focused on the origin of life. They do not contradict the fact of evolution as proven by DNA and the fossil record. The problem of origin is irrelevant because know one knows how it happened (argument from silence), whereas evolution is a fact. The “theory of evolution” is how we explain the fact of evolution.

    I’ll answer more this evening.

    All the best,

    Richard

  42. Posted December 16, 2014 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    I ran across a website that debunked Ron Wyatt’s supposed finding of Noah’s Ark. Noah’s Ark may still be found, but that geologic formation is not it. So, I have said so on my website, Search.InAllEarnest.com under Ultimate Search.

    That’s great Wesley. I’m really glad to see you correcting the information on your site. But I don’t understand how you could imagine that there actually was a global flood. The evidence against such an idea is absolutely overwhelming. For example: There is no way that all the animals on the planet descended from pairs just a few thousand years ago. That would imply a very obvious genetic bottleneck that does not exist. And how did the kangaroos get to Australia? And what about the continuous ice cores going back 750,000 years?

  43. Posted December 16, 2014 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    In summary, what is the gospel? It is the message of the good news of salvation, the word of truth offered to mankind by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is a message not only of eternal life, but one that encompasses the total plan of God to redeem people from the ravages of sin, death, Satan, and the curse that now covers the earth.

    Salvation from what? Hell? If so, then your “good news” is the worst news I’ve ever heard, since it implies that the Creator is actually a cruel and irrational demon who deliberately created victims that he will torment forever in hell. That would be an eternal evil of infinite proportions.

  44. Posted December 16, 2014 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Salvation from what? Hell? If so, then your “good news” is the worst news I’ve ever heard, since it implies that the Creator is actually a cruel and irrational demon who deliberately created victims that he will torment forever in hell. That would be an eternal evil of infinite proportions.

    God is Love (1), but also God is Just(2). How do those both get worked out at the same time? We deserve the same as the angels that revolted and thought that they could be higher than God.(3) Hell is reserved for those angels.(4) If we side with them we are liable to the same judgment.(5) God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble.(6) Christ Jesus did not shy away from telling people to avoid hell.(7) God gives us all kinds of opportunities to accept his free gift of salvation.(8) Including on our death bed.(9) God wants none to go to hell.(10) At the same time no one has an excuse who has seen nature(11) or been convicted by their conscience.(12) God has given us free will in our hearts. God owns everything (13)except for what He has decided not to own – our hearts.(14) When we give our hearts over to Him he gives us the free (requires no works) gift of salvation.(15)

    “Why does God create people when He knows they are going to go to hell?”

    “Did God Create Hell?”

    (1) 1 John 4:8
    (2) Daniel 9:14; 2 Thes 1:6
    (3) Isaiah 14:13-15; Rom 3:23
    (4) 2 Peter 2:4; Matt 25:41
    (5) Rom 6:23
    (6) James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5
    (7) Mark 9:43-47; Matt 10:28
    (8) “The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance” 2 Peter 3:9
    (9) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 NASV
    (10) 2 Peter 3:9
    (11) 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools Romans 1:18-22
    (12) Romans 2:15
    (13) God Owns Everything
    (14) Matt 15:18-20
    (15) Romans 10:9,10

  45. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    This is on topic:

    Name a bad deed that a person can commit against another person that isn’t included in this list:

    Never helping anyone who is in need although if we were in the same need ourselves we would appreciate help.
    Lying
    Stealing
    Assault
    Robbery
    Rape
    Murder
    Crimes against the Earth ie dumping toxic wastes etc.
    Taking an eye for an eye against criminals, instead of restraining them, fair trial, life, and dignity.

    Remember that what a person does all alone, that harms no one else or the Earth, is not a crime at all, as there is no righteous accuser.

    Good luck.

    The family is the source of objective morality, not a usurping inhumane supernatural being that purportedly calls itself “the truth”.

  46. Rose
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Hello Michael,

    I can think of two things right off the top of my head that are missing from your list:

    1. Slavery (which is allowed and condoned in the Bible)
    2. Patriarchal rule (Christianity is based on patriarchy, which mandates that men rule over women)

    Kind regards,
    Rose

  47. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    Slavery is 1. Not helping people in need 2. Stealing 3. Assault 4. Robbery 5. Many times its rape and murder. So it is included in the list.

    No where in my list did I include gender because it is self evident that men and wome are equal in how we are to treat one another. The rules apply to men and women.

    Want to try again?

  48. Posted December 19, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    This is on topic:

    Name a bad deed that a person can commit against another person that isn’t included in this list:

    Hey there Michael,

    How is that on the topic of evidence for God? I don’t understand your point.

    And why do you have such a long list? All you need is the Golden Rule.

    Richard

  49. Rose
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Michael said:

    “Slavery is 1. Not helping people in need 2. Stealing 3. Assault 4. Robbery 5. Many times its rape and murder. So it is included in the list.

    No where in my list did I include gender because it is self evident that men and women are equal in how we are to treat one another. The rules apply to men and women. ”

    Sorry Michael, but I’m not going to let you squirm out of it quite that easily! Since you felt the need to itemize Stealing, Assault, Robbery, Rape and Murder separately, it is perfectly valid to also list Slavery separately.

    Secondly, gender equality is no more self evident to many people than are any of the other things you included in your list. The authors and followers of the Bible did not believe that women were equal to men that is why the Bible is filled with sexism … even Jesus never said one word against the patriarchal sexist teachings contained in the Old Testament.

    Kind regards,
    Rose

  50. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    The Golden Rule leaves room for the truly psychotic that want to be treated badly to then treat other people badly. “Hey I want to get punched in the face so I’ll go and punch someone in the face (without asking them first!)”.

    Rose,

    I’m not squirming out of anything with regard to slavery. i think you’ve helped me though, so I’m going to take what you’ve said into consideration.

    Richard,

    If one can demonstrate empirical objective truth they don’t have to prove the existence of God. The only task left then is to prove that the God of the Bible brings the reader further away from the truth instead of closer to it. Then If deity reveals itself, showing its nature, you will have the truth to judge the deity by.

    In other words prove the truth that you can see, not the deity that you cannot see.

    I wanted to see if you could name a crime that wasn’t in that list. If slavery and equality of women are all anyone can come up with, even though slavery involves an initial assault upon person who is unwilling to be a slave, so slavery is in the list as an assault, and the list doesn’t mention gender, hence its equal, I think I’ve succeeded, with a little polishing up left to do.

    By all means name a crime that isn’t in the list. Your a scientist man, enlighten me with knowledge of a crime that isn’t in the list!

  51. Posted December 19, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    If one can demonstrate empirical objective truth they don’t have to prove the existence of God. The only task left then is to prove that the God of the Bible brings the reader further away from the truth instead of closer to it. Then If deity reveals itself, showing its nature, you will have the truth to judge the deity by.

    In other words prove the truth that you can see, not the deity that you cannot see.

    I wish you could be more explicit about your point. As far as I can tell, you are trying to prove that “deity has revealed itself” in the teachings of the Gospels because of the moral rules that you listed. Is that correct?

  52. Rose
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Hey Michael, you never addressed the issue of Jesus totally ignoring all the blatant sexism contained in the Old Testament!

    Also, concerning the equality of women … don’t you realize that women make up half of the population of the planet, so that makes the violation of women’s equal human rights a huge issue, not something to be brushed off quite so easily as you have.

    Kind regards,
    Rose

  53. Posted December 19, 2014 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    The Golden Rule leaves room for the truly psychotic that want to be treated badly to then treat other people badly. “Hey I want to get punched in the face so I’ll go and punch someone in the face (without asking them first!)”.

    First, the Golden Rule is not a “rule” in the sense of prohibiting a specific action such as “do not lie.” It is a principle designed to lead a person to access their moral intuitions through empathy so they will know how to act. The fact that it would not help a truly psychotic person is a symptom of the psychosis, not a problem with the principle. No rule could adequately guide a truly psychotic person because a psychotic person is irrational and so does not follow rules.

    Second, the first rule you listed has the same problem. Here is what you wrote:

    Never helping anyone who is in need although if we were in the same need ourselves we would appreciate help.

    A truly psychotic person may never appreciate any help at all and may happily sit with a mountain of food watching everyone around him starve.

  54. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Rose and Richard,

    If one can prove objective morality within all (most) people that transcends gender, religion, race, and sexuality, they would have proven “the truth”. What is religion anyway but a system of morality.

    What happens when we realize that we are all part of the human family.

    Ask a man or woman, people who are religious and those who are atheists, heterosexuals and homosexuals, ask them and ask yourself two questions:

    Do you prefer that people tell you the truth or tell you lies?
    Do you prefer that people do things to you, your person or your property, either with or without your agreement?

    These questions and human beings answers to them mean something more than what meets the eye. Truth and Agreement is “The Kingdom” within. Its empirically good and true about human behavior towards one another. I got it from the righteous Jesus, the dude in the Gospels, whose true nature I’m unsure about now.

    When we put tribe or “God” before Truth and Agreement, indeed before Righteousness, then our tribe and our God are guilty of usurping The Kingdom (THE TRUTH). But if our tribe and our God upholds Truth and Agreement then our tribe and our God upholds The Kingdom (THE TRUTH).

  55. Posted December 19, 2014 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    These questions and human beings answers to them mean something more than what meets the eye. Truth and Agreement is “The Kingdom” within. Its empirically good and true about human behavior towards one another. I got it from the righteous Jesus, the dude in the Gospels, whose true nature I’m unsure about now.

    Like I said, your comments seem to be off-topic. They don’t have anything to do with evidence for the existence of god as far as I can tell.

    It’s good that you are questioning what you believe about “righteous Jesus, the dude in the Gospels” since that “dude” affirmed every vile “jot and tittle” (sexism, murder of children, etc) taught in the Torah.

  56. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said:

    “As far as I can tell, you are trying to prove that “deity has revealed itself” in the teachings of the Gospels because of the moral rules that you listed. Is that correct?”

    My answer is no that is not correct. Deity reveals itself only when deity reveals itself as deity. In other words, believe in the bogeyman when the bogeyman shows up.

    I would say that yes, truth has revealed itself in a particular interpretation of the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Now, since there are more than one interpretations of the Gospels, I am not going to argue about which one is correct. So I’m not talking about religion or the Bible here, I am talking about truth.

    Hey Rose,

    I never spoke about Jesus in my original comment where you say I left out equality of women. Whether or not Jesus was a sexist I don’t know. From the Gospels I don’t see it. I can assure you I’m not. I can assure you also that when someone says something true about the human family as a whole they are talking about women also, without having to say the word “man” or “woman”.

    Richard,

    You can quote Jesus and your interpretation all day long where Jesus supposedly affirms sexism, murder, baby killing etc, but no where will you see him in the Gospels doing any of those things, and in fact can find him speaking against them, but I’m not here to fight for the soul of Jesus.

    I only said “dude” because people have many names for him, ie Jesus, ie Yeshua, etc. It’s all the same person, the “dude” in the Gospels.

    The answers to the two questions most certainly reveal a common denominator amongst human beings that cannot be ignored. Is that common denominator a fact that we are “made in the image of God”? I don’t know! God hasn’t showed up! We are made alike though, this I can assure you, which is why I find religions that exclude whole swaths of humanity, including women, to be repugnant and anti-truth. Our common denominator is King of Kings and Lord of Lords so to speak.

    If you feel it’s off topic in a conversation about the existence of God to speak about the existence of empirical truth, although God claims to be the truth (God of Truth), then that is fine, but I had a point to make, so I made it. Truth is provable today. God is not provable today.

    That’s my whole point in these last few comments.

  57. Posted December 19, 2014 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said:

    “As far as I can tell, you are trying to prove that “deity has revealed itself” in the teachings of the Gospels because of the moral rules that you listed. Is that correct?”

    My answer is no that is not correct. Deity reveals itself only when deity reveals itself as deity. In other words, believe in the bogeyman when the bogeyman shows up.

    I would say that yes, truth has revealed itself in a particular interpretation of the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Now, since there are more than one interpretations of the Gospels, I am not going to argue about which one is correct. So I’m not talking about religion or the Bible here, I am talking about truth.

    That’s why I said your comments are off-topic. This thread is about evidence for the existence of god. It is not about your idiosyncratic and apparently incoherent interpretations of the Bible. Please take no offense as none is intended. I’m just telling you the logical implications that seem to follow from what you have written.

    You can quote Jesus and your interpretation all day long where Jesus supposedly affirms sexism, murder, baby killing etc, but no where will you see him in the Gospels doing any of those things, and in fact can find him speaking against them, but I’m not here to fight for the soul of Jesus.

    Your only source of knowledge of Jesus is the Gospels, and the Gospels say that Jesus affirmed every “jot and title” of the Torah which you reject. This is why I say that your interpretation of the Gospels is incoherent.

    If you feel it’s off topic in a conversation about the existence of God to speak about the existence of empirical truth, although God claims to be the truth (God of Truth), then that is fine, but I had a point to make, so I made it. Truth is provable today. God is not provable today.

    I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything in your posts that proved “the existence of empirical truth.” I don’t even know what you think you mean by that.

  58. Posted December 19, 2014 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    The Golden Rule leaves room for the truly psychotic that want to be treated badly to then treat other people badly. “Hey I want to get punched in the face so I’ll go and punch someone in the face (without asking them first!)”.

    Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. Luke 6:31 NASV
    A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34 NASV
    — both quotes of Jesus ( love = agape in Greek – altruistic love – love without wanting anything in return)

  59. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Empirical truth is the truth about how each of us wants to be treated by other people in word and in deed. Knowing this truth we can then affect the world positively and not negatively.

    It’s empirical because we can ask billions of people and the truth will come out of their mouths, “Truth” and “Agreement”.

    You know what’s idiosyncratic and incoherent Richard? It’s when you say that Jesus supported baby killing and murder. Not many who read the Gospels believes that filth. You have to point at that stupid verse about “every jot and tittle” when you don’t even know if he’s talking about the whole OT or just the Ten Commandments (the law), whereas if it was the Ten Commandments surely they forbid killing children as they say DO NOT KILL. You have to stretch to believe the filth you believe about Jesus supporting the actions of Yahweh in the OT. Jesus said love thy enemy and Yahweh said to kill them. The distinction is clear but you can’t see it. Jesus said that whoever harms a child would be better off tying a millstone around their neck and drowning themselves. He makes a sarcastic remark about Sodom and Gomorrah faring better than people of a certain town who wouldn’t receive the disciples, yet he clearly says “you know not what Spirit you are of” when a disciple specifically asks to burn a town.

    Why would Jesus even send to correct the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, if the OT jots and tittles are already there, so who needs further reproof if it’s already there? Jesus even said that the Sabbath was made by man for man, yet in the OT it says that the punishment for not doing the Sabbath is death.

    The OT and the Gospels are not the same. The “Spirit” is completely different. The “Spirit” that tells the average reader that Jesus would never support baby killing or murder is completely different from the “Spirit” of the OT where Yahweh is commanding people to murder and to kill babies.

    You also said “First, the Golden Rule is not a “rule” in the sense of prohibiting a specific action such as “do not lie.”” My answer to that is NO KIDDING, the Golden Rule is not the law, but rather it’s the revealer of the law, which includes DO NOT LIE.

    I’m done. I’m not going to argue with someone that wants to conflate my original comment with Bible stuff. The Truth is provable. That is my point. God is not. Get it?

    Your not going to prove Gods existence so you goad people into arguments about it knowing that your ammunition about the non-existence of God is provable, so you mess with people using this ammunition. Yet a child knows that God isn’t real because God doesn’t show himself. So you’re as smart as a child. Big deal.

    And why would numbers and a Biblewheel prove anything about the existence of God Richard, when all they would prove, if hashed out, is that the writers might of used numbers and possibly a wheel? I bet this was the naysayers ammunition against your Biblewheel from the beginning and yet I bet you blew them off at one time, just as I bet you blew off atheists and agnostics and people of other religions at one time. A child knows the Spirit of Jesus in the Gospels but many adults don’t. Ask a child, one who has been read the Gospels, would Jesus support murdering people or killing babies? They’d probably start crying and saying that you are crazy to think such a thing.

  60. MichaelFree
    Posted December 19, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    It goes like this:

    Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

    This is afforded everyone individually, so everyone gets to individually own “as you would have done unto you” so everyone gets to decide how they want to be treated.

    So it becomes:

    Do unto others as they would have done unto them.

    How do we know what other people want done unto them? Know the answer to the two questions, in other words ask them! “Hey, can I punch you in the face?”. A series of “nos” until finally a “yes”, and then it shall be done for them by truth, blameless indeed.

    Does a criminal get to decide “as they would have done unto them”? No! They transgressed and need to account.

    Do we take an eye for eye for the criminal? No! Although responding proportionally in terms of restraining the criminal, and trying them with truth, and treating them with dignity, is just, and righteous, and a gift of civilization.

    Ask the two questions to however many people you want and you will truly know how other people want to be treated, “how they want done unto them”, Truth and Agreement.

    Jesus brought the manna, helping people in need in proportion to what help you would appreciate for yourself if you were in the same situation. This leaves room for the hermit who never wants anyone to help them so they never help anyone themselves. They are righteous as long as they adhere to it and are honest. Yet even the hermit (most likely) doesn’t like being lied to or having people do things to them that affect their person or their property without their agreement.

    Listen.

    God said he was the God of Truth.
    Jesus said he was The Truth.
    Jesus and God don’t show themselves in person.
    Truth shows itself and is provable.
    I choose truth.
    It is my God and it is not a deity and I don’t call it God, I call it Truth or Righteousness.

    -When Yahweh came walking looking for Adam and Eve, who came walking? THE TRUTH came walking and because they had transgressed (trespassed against Gods property) they got dressed.
    -When Jesus came walking looking for the disciples on the shore, who came walking? THE TRUTH came walking and because Peter had transgressed (lied) he got dressed.
    -When Jesus was crucified, yet he did no crime that warranted death as a result, because he had harmed no one, the Pharisees and the Romans transgressed (trespassed against Jesus’ person) and they too will get dressed when THE TRUTH comes walking (I believe this will come to pass, with evidence I have seen but is unbelievable).

    Lying, stealing, and crimes against people physically. All bad spirit things. Word and deed is Spirit.

    When you become a dedicated truth teller even little lies are repugnant. You become a lie detector. You can see through the fog of deceit and cut right to the chase.

  61. Posted December 20, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    You know what’s idiosyncratic and incoherent Richard? It’s when you say that Jesus supported baby killing and murder. Not many who read the Gospels believes that filth. You have to point at that stupid verse about “every jot and tittle” when you don’t even know if he’s talking about the whole OT or just the Ten Commandments (the law), whereas if it was the Ten Commandments surely they forbid killing children as they say DO NOT KILL. You have to stretch to believe the filth you believe about Jesus supporting the actions of Yahweh in the OT. Jesus said love thy enemy and Yahweh said to kill them. The distinction is clear but you can’t see it.

    You really hit the nail on the head Michael. The Old Testament teaches that Yahweh is a moral monster and that it totally inconsistent with what most people believe about Jesus. But you erred on two points. First, the incoherence of the Bible has nothing to do with me. I simply pointed out the obvious fact that the Christian beliefs about Jesus “meek and mild” are radically inconsistent with what is taught in the Bible, and that the Bible is radically incoherent when it presents God as commanding both the merciless murder of children and “thou shalt not murder.”

    Second, there is good evidence that Jesus was talking about the entire Old Testament (whatever that was taken to be in the first century) because he specified the “law and the prophets” in the immediate context:

    Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    I’m sorry, but there’s no way you can separate Jesus from the “filth” attributed to Yahweh since Jesus referred to Yahweh as his “father.” Your interpretation of the Gospels is radically incoherent.

    Jesus said that whoever harms a child would be better off tying a millstone around their neck and drowning themselves. He makes a sarcastic remark about Sodom and Gomorrah faring better than people of a certain town who wouldn’t receive the disciples, yet he clearly says “you know not what Spirit you are of” when a disciple specifically asks to burn a town.

    Where did you get the idea that Jesus was being sarcastic? Is there anything in the text that suggests that? It seems clear that Jesus was condemning those who rejected his teachings as being worse than the worst sinners destroyed by his father Yahweh. The fact that you think this is incoherent with his refusal to bring down fire looks to me like another example of the incoherence of the Bible (and/or your interpretation of it, since other Christians see no inconsistency).

    Why would Jesus even send to correct the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, if the OT jots and tittles are already there, so who needs further reproof if it’s already there? Jesus even said that the Sabbath was made by man for man, yet in the OT it says that the punishment for not doing the Sabbath is death.

    Most Christians would rationalize this “apparent” contradiction, like they do all the others. How then is anyone supposed to know which rationalization is correct, and which is false?

    If the Bible is so full of inconsistencies, why do you believe any of it?

    Richard

  62. Posted December 20, 2014 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    God said he was the God of Truth.
    Jesus said he was The Truth.
    Jesus and God don’t show themselves in person.
    Truth shows itself and is provable.
    I choose truth.
    It is my God and it is not a deity and I don’t call it God, I call it Truth or Righteousness.

    This is what the Bible has to say:
    God is one,
    The Father is God,
    Christ Jesus is God,
    The Holy Spirit is God,
    These three are distinct.

    The Trinity (Triunity) of God

  63. Posted December 20, 2014 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    1. Slavery (which is allowed and condoned in the Bible)

    Guess What?

    1. Slavery was first officially banned in Christian Europe.
    2. Pagan Greece and Rome were built almost entirely by slave labor.
    3. Anti-Christian writers of the Enlightenment categorized slavery as a necessary price to be paid for civilization
    4. The Old Testament is unquestionably anti-slavery.”

    “The Politicallly Incorrect Guide to the Bible” by Robert J. Hutchinson – Regenery Publishing Inc, Washington DC, 2007, page 157

  64. Posted December 20, 2014 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    2. Patriarchal rule (Christianity is based on patriarchy, which mandates that men rule over women)

    “You’d never know it from the shrill talk of ‘patriarchy’ and sexism among today’s aging feminists, but Christianity was undoubtedly the most pro-female religion in history”

    “The Politicallly Incorrect Guide to the Bible” by Robert J. Hutchinson – Regenery Publishing Inc, Washington DC, 2007, page 191

  65. Posted December 20, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    The Old Testament teaches that Yahweh is a moral monster and that it totally inconsistent with what most people believe about Jesus.

    Why does God command so much killing in the Old Testament? Does God condone violence?

  66. Posted December 20, 2014 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    “You’d never know it from the shrill talk of ‘patriarchy’ and sexism among today’s aging feminists, but Christianity was undoubtedly the most pro-female religion in history”

    “The Politicallly Incorrect Guide to the Bible” by Robert J. Hutchinson – Regenery Publishing Inc, Washington DC, 2007, page 191

    It may be true that Christianity is not as bad as the other patriarchal religions, but that doesn’t mean it is not itself patriarchal. And it certainly does not mean that it is not horribly sexist.

    See my article: The Inextricable Sexism of the Bible.

  67. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You use this verse to say that Jesus meant the entire OT, with him supporting all Yahweh’s unrighteousness:

    “Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”.

    But this is what Jesus said about the “law and the prophets”:

    “Matthew 7:12 “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets”.

    So there is no doubt about what Jesus meant by the “law and the prophets”, the Golden Rule.

    He said that the “law and the prophets were until John the Baptist and since then the Kingdom of God is preached”.

    The Kingdom of God is the answer to the Golden Rule, the fulfilling of the “law and the prophets”.

    And it is a law, and yes, “do not lie” is included.

    The article is about the existence of God, whether or not it is provable. But what is God? Some people are disciples of the Truth, of which many people of different religions say that their God is. But what is the truth?

    Find the truth and you will find the heart of the King, how to “walk with God (truth)” if you will.

  68. Posted December 20, 2014 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Guess What?

    1. Slavery was first officially banned in Christian Europe.
    2. Pagan Greece and Rome were built almost entirely by slave labor.
    3. Anti-Christian writers of the Enlightenment categorized slavery as a necessary price to be paid for civilization
    4. The Old Testament is unquestionably anti-slavery.”

    The Bible explicitly condones the slavery. It explicitly teaches that the Jews could own other humans in perpetuity, handing them down from generation to generation.

    Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. Leviticus 25:45-46

    Christians who deny or try to whitewash these facts prove nothing but that dogmatic religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. For example, Rich Deem wrote a large article that concluded by asserting that “idea that God or Christianity encourages or approves of slavery is shown to be false.” He quoted many Bible verses that appeared to support his case, such as Leviticus 25:39-43 which speaks of treating Hebrew slaves well, but then he deliberately (and quite deceptively) stopped short of the verses 44-46 which speak of perpetual slavery! Simply stated, he perverted truth in an effort to defend his religion. I give many other examples of similar behavior (such as his deceptive defense of sexism in the Bible) in this article:

    The Art of Rationalization: A Case Study of Christian Apologist Rich Deem.

  69. Posted December 20, 2014 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    The Old Testament teaches that Yahweh is a moral monster and that it totally inconsistent with what most people believe about Jesus.

    Why does God command so much killing in the Old Testament? Does God condone violence?

    I’m sorry Wesley, but that article does not help defend the Bible. On the contrary, it demonstrates how inconsistent it really is. For example, it says this:

    Again, such a choice seems extreme and unthinkable in today’s world. Yet from the Israelite perspective, keeping enemies alive caused the following: First, survivors would have the potential to later oppose the Israelites in war. Second, and more importantly, the survivors could cause spiritual harm through the worship of other gods. God’s commands in these situations were to kill everyone in the community instead.

    That is an absurd excuse for the primitive barbarism of Yahweh. If he really were God, he could have found any number ofways to accomplish his purposes without commanding his people to become baby killers and rapists. If all he wanted was the Canaanites dead, he could have killed them himself by giving them a disease, or driving them out with bees or wild animals or whatever. But that’s not what he hid. He chose to command the merciless slaughter of women and children.

    The rationalizations in that article are particularly absurd because Yahweh commanded the slaughter of all the Midianites except for 32,000 sexy virgins that were then distributed to be raped by the very soldiers who had just murdered very person they ever loved (Numbers 31). This directly contradicts God’s own command that they should not take “wives” from those people because they would cause them to “worship other gods.” The article therefore is totally absurd. It doesn’t even try to be consistent with what the Bible actually teaches.

    The Bible attributes gross immorality and blatant inconsistency to Yahweh. No rationalization could convince any rational person to believe such absurdities accurately describe the true God.

  70. Posted December 20, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    So there is no doubt about what Jesus meant by the “law and the prophets”, the Golden Rule.

    I’m sorry Michael, but your comment makes no sense. The words “law and prophets” refer to the two major sections of the Old Testament Scriptures. The fact that the Golden Rule “fulfills the law and the prophets” does not mean that it IS the law and the prophets. That would be a terrible confusion of language.

    Jesus was obviously affirming the entire body of Old Testament Scripture when he said that not a “jot or tittle” would fail. This is confirmed by John 10:35 when he said “scripture cannot be broken.” Furthermore, he never once said a word against any of the atrocities taught in the Old Testament. He affirmed that Yahweh is God. I think it is great that you reject the barbarism of Yahweh, but it’s totally absurd and incoherent for you to then try to pretend that Jesus agrees with you.

  71. Posted December 20, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    The article is about the existence of God, whether or not it is provable. But what is God? Some people are disciples of the Truth, of which many people of different religions say that their God is. But what is the truth?

    Find the truth and you will find the heart of the King, how to “walk with God (truth)” if you will.

    Truth is our word for statements that cohere with reality. It is not a personal agent like the God of Christianity. The concept of truth is necessary before we can prove anything, but that does not mean that the thing we prove is itself “truth” personified like the Bible claims of Yahweh and Jesus.

    Your posts are totally off topic. You have developed an exceedingly idiosyncratic interpretation of the Gospels that involves a radically inconsistent rejection of the rest of the Bible. All your talk of “Truth” as a replacement for “God” has nothing to do with whether the God of the Bible exists. If you create confusion when you redefine God to be truth because I believe in truth but not the God of the Bible.

  72. Posted December 20, 2014 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    This is what the Bible has to say:
    God is one,
    The Father is God,
    Christ Jesus is God,
    The Holy Spirit is God,
    These three are distinct.

    The Trinity (Triunity) of God

    The Bible does not say that “Christ Jesus is God” or that “The Holy Spirit is God.” At best, you could say that the Bible “implies” those things, but that is a matter of subjective opinion impossible to prove. It’s nothing but a matter of interpretation of many ambiguous verses. And worse, the Trinity is logically incoherent. The transitive law says this:

    If A is B and B is C then A is C

    Whereas the Trinity says:

    The Son is God and The Father is God but The Son is not the Father.

    Thus, the Trinity directly contradicts the transitive law of logic.

  73. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Wesley,

    I repair computers.

    One of my computer clients is a white guy. He’s probably in his fifties. He told me that he found out one of relatives from hundreds of years ago, who lived in Ireland I believe, was very wealthy from being involved in the slave trade and selling bibles. No joke. We laughed because of the irony and noted how future generations can’t be held to account for what their distant relatives did. My client is not rich and works hard for what he has accomplished. That irony is not so ironic seeing that the Bible has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon, ie “the good book”, where babies are killed by God.

    Anyone who says that the OT is anti-slavery can’t read plain text. I’ve read that people who were involved in the slave trade throughout history have used Bible passages to justify it.

    Wesley, you said:

    “You’d never know it from the shrill talk of ‘patriarchy’ and sexism among today’s aging feminists, but Christianity was undoubtedly the most pro-female religion in history”.

    I believe you were quoting someone else but that someone else used the words “shrill” and “aging” and “feminists” to underhandedly disparage women who fight everyday for equality. Not only this you are admitting that Christianity is a patriarchy, just not as bad of a patriarchy as other religions, which is disputable. I believe if I were a woman that I would be appalled by men thinking that they own women or rule over them, men having the Bible to back them up, and using fear to enforce it, not only fear of man but fear of “God”. What a shitty existence for women to have live with, the existence of not only man but also “God” (as attributed to God) saying that women are less-than and treating them as such.

    Richard said it:

    “It may be true that Christianity is not as bad as the other patriarchal religions, but that doesn’t mean it is not itself patriarchal. And it certainly does not mean that it is not horribly sexist”.

  74. Posted December 20, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who says that the OT is anti-slavery can’t read plain text. I’ve read that people who were involved in the slave trade throughout history have used Bible passages to justify it.

    Excellent point Michael. Many slaveholders used the Bible to justify slavery. For example, here is a quote from an 1850 magazine called Debow’s Review:

    We find, then, that both the Old and New Testaments speak of slavery—that they do not condemn the relation, but, on the contrary, expressly allow it or create it; and they give commands and exhortations, which are based upon its legality and propriety. It can not, then, be wrong.

    What we have written is founded solely upon the Bible, and can have no force, unless it is taken for truth. If that book is of divine origin, the holding of slaves is right: as that which God has permitted, recognized and commanded, cannot be inconsistent with his will.

    Look at that concluding sentence: “If that book is of divine origin, the holding of slaves is right: as that which God has permitted, recognized and commanded, cannot be inconsistent with his will.”

  75. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I can tell you this:

    In the early 90’s I tried reading the King James Bible from page 1. I got to about page 100 or so and had to put it down because of the immorality.

    Fast forward 20 years or so to around late 2012 or early 2013, I read the Gospels and have no problem with the morality of Jesus.

    Right after I read the Gospels I start in on the Acts of the Apostles thinking that I will read the rest of the NT. It didn’t take very long to become disillusioned: the Holy Spirit KILLS Ananias and Saphira for lying about the amount of money they got when they sold their things (they kept a portion of it for themselves separate from the community pot). Peter is now Jesus-like healing people but he does it like a gangster so much so that the people are afraid of him personally so they seek his shadow to be healed. WTF? So I put it down several pages after these injustices.

    Then I read about what Christians say about Jesus and the Gospels and now I can’t even read the Gospels all the way through a second time because most of what I see is the “weird” Jesus now. I can’t even make a firm decision as to whether or not God is culpable for killing all the babies that were killed by Herod in Bethlehem, seeing as the three wise men weren’t warned not to go to Herod in the first place, but were only warned after visiting Herod not to go back to him with knowledge of where Jesus was. God surely knew that Herod was a murdering prick to begin with. The supernatural star that appeared had already come into the world, so the supernatural was here and beckoned the three wise men to come see Jesus. Because of the supernatural they come to Bethlehem and aren’t warned in a dream beforehand not to see Herod, but rather after the fact they are warned not to return to him. So is God involved in baby killing in the Gospels also? Who knows. Just like you said “the Bible is incoherent” (and seems to like depicting scenes of babies being killed by grown men).

    You said: “I’m sorry Michael, but your comment makes no sense. The words “law and prophets” refer to the two major sections of the Old Testament Scriptures. The fact that the Golden Rule “fulfills the law and the prophets” does not mean that it IS the law and the prophets. That would be a terrible confusion of language”.

    The words of the character Jesus in the Gospels beg to differ “all things whatsoever that people should do to you do to them likewise, this is the law and the prophets”. He doesn’t say that “the two major sections of the OT scriptures are the law and the prophets”. He condensed the OT scriptures to the Golden Rule. This is indisputable. It’s in plain text. Even Rabbi Hillel, I think a contemporary of Jesus (if he existed) said “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn”. He says here to seek the explanation of the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule does not fulfill the law and the prophets, but rather are the law and the prophets according to Jesus, the fulfillment (the meaning, the explanation of the Golden Rule) comes later Jesus said (hasn’t happened yet).

  76. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said:

    “Look at that concluding sentence: “If that book is of divine origin, the holding of slaves is right: as that which God has permitted, recognized and commanded, cannot be inconsistent with his will.”

    That’s the problem with the Bible: It can used to justify anything, good and evil. The “good book” can be used to justify evil. This is a problem. The slaveholder who has a moral issue with slavery, their own heart that questions slavery’s morality, is defeated by a book, words on a page, written by a human being and enforced with fear of the bogeyman and eternal torture. The “book” speaks and is a shitty image of what a righteous God should be like.

  77. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    The rationalizations in that article are particularly absurd because Yahweh commanded the slaughter of all the Midianites except for 32,000 sexy virgins that were then distributed to be raped by the very soldiers who had just murdered very person they ever loved (Numbers 31). This directly contradicts God’s own command that they should not take “wives” from those people because they would cause them to “worship other gods.” The article therefore is totally absurd. It doesn’t even try to be consistent with what the Bible actually teaches

    The verses mentioned only mention about raping…say no such thing. The women were not spared. Who were spared were children or teenagers (had not had relations with a man to be exact). What is said is:

    18“But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

    Yes, they would not be allowed to take them as wives, so they would have to be slaves instead.

    “31:13-18 The sword of war should spare women and children; but the sword of justice should know no distinction, but that of guilty or not guilty. This war was the execution of a righteous sentence upon a guilty nation, in which the women were the worst criminals. The female children were spared, who, being brought up among the Israelites, would not tempt them to idolatry. The whole history shows the hatefulness of sin, and the guilt of tempting others; it teaches us to avoid all occasions of evil, and to give no quarter to inward lusts. The women and children were not kept for sinful purposes, but for slaves, a custom every where practised in former times, as to captives. In the course of providence, when famine and plagues visit a nation for sin, children suffer in the common calamity. In this case parents are punished in their children; and for children dying before actual sin, full provision is made as to their eternal happiness, by the mercy of God in Christ.” – Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

  78. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    “The verses mentioned only mention about raping”

    should be:

    “The Numbers 31 you mentioned don’t even mention about raping – the chapter says no such thing.”

  79. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    “The Numbers 31 you mentioned don’t even mention about raping – the chapter says no such thing.”

    All the Midianites were slaughtered except for 32,000 sexy virgins who were taken captive. Half of them were distributed to the soldiers who had just murdered every person they ever loved – their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and cousins. Do you think those women would have willingly gone with those evil men? They were listed along with the sheep and other war BOOTY (an unfortunate, though accurate, pun found in the KJV). Yahweh’s law says that they could take any captive they found “desirable” (for sex) to be a “wife.” If they didn’t like them after they used them, they could not sell them because they had been “humbled” (i.e. sexually used). This is what your “perfect law of God” declares:

    Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled (had sex with) her.

    The Bible declares that soldiers could take a woman, have sex with her, and discard her like a used rag.

    Are those the “family values” taught by Almighty God?

  80. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    That’s the problem with the Bible: It can used to justify anything, good and evil. The “good book” can be used to justify evil. This is a problem. The slaveholder who has a moral issue with slavery, their own heart that questions slavery’s morality, is defeated by a book, words on a page, written by a human being and enforced with fear of the bogeyman and eternal torture. The “book” speaks and is a shitty image of what a righteous God should be like.

    That’s exactly correct Michael, and that’s why it is so utterly absurd for Christian apologists like William Lane Craig to assert that there would be no “objective morality” with God. Nothing could be more absurd. The God of the Bible commands genocide! What kind of insanity rules the minds of apologists?

  81. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Wesley,

    Matthew Henry said “and the guilt of tempting others”. I think, and I haven’t read the OT, that the Medianite women tempted the Jews to change their religion (idolatry).

    In truth, tempting someone else is not a sin. If you say “here come and worship this piece of crap with me”, is it the tempter or the fool that sins, if the fool goes and worships crap? I say neither of them sin, even if they worship crap. Funny stuff, but whose at religious fault for going and worshipping crap, the tempter or the worshipper? Of course it’s the worshipper. The same can be said of Christianity to the Jew, that Christianity is crap and it’s tempters will be killed. I believe I’ve read that the Talmud says that Jesus is in hell and is boiling in human excrement. This gives me a good chuckle, but then I remember that they are deadly serious. I’ve read that some crazy Jews think that this is how it goes down when the World to Come is here–they even believe that Gentiles will be their actual slaves. And the crazy Christians think that everyone except for Christians burn in hell for eternity, never mind that torture is cruel and evil, because you know, the good God gives all the Christians all the Kingdoms of the world if they will just bow down to him.

    The last word of the OT is curse for a reason. Remember Wesley, you just attempted to justify the killing of babies at the hands of grown men. Next time you see a little baby, look at them, and look hard. Look at their feet. Look at their hands. Look at their eyes. Look at their smile. And remember that whoever murders a child would be better off killing themselves instead. This is eternally true. The choice, as presented before Abraham, is humanity or the bogeyman. I choose humanity. I choose the life of the little babies and the life of the tempters who worship crap. If the tempters who worship crap don’t try to physically force the crap religion on me or anyone else then they can do whatever they want.

  82. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Then I read about what Christians say about Jesus and the Gospels and now I can’t even read the Gospels all the way through a second time because most of what I see is the “weird” Jesus now. I can’t even make a firm decision as to whether or not God is culpable for killing all the babies that were killed by Herod in Bethlehem, seeing as the three wise men weren’t warned not to go to Herod in the first place, but were only warned after visiting Herod not to go back to him with knowledge of where Jesus was. God surely knew that Herod was a murdering prick to begin with. The supernatural star that appeared had already come into the world, so the supernatural was here and beckoned the three wise men to come see Jesus. Because of the supernatural they come to Bethlehem and aren’t warned in a dream beforehand not to see Herod, but rather after the fact they are warned not to return to him. So is God involved in baby killing in the Gospels also? Who knows. Just like you said “the Bible is incoherent” (and seems to like depicting scenes of babies being killed by grown men).

    Well stated Michael. I can’t argue with that logic.

    Given that the world is filled with competing claims about various gods (Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, etc.) we have no choice but to use our reason to discern between them. In my experience, they all fail for pretty much the same reasons. There is no evidence for their gods. The books are filled with primitive superstitions and abominable morality. There is no reason anyone should think they are true.

  83. Posted December 20, 2014 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Then I read about what Christians say about Jesus and the Gospels and now I can’t even read the Gospels all the way through a second time because most of what I see is the “weird” Jesus now.

    I know what you mean Michael. Here is one of the worst “weird Jesus” passages that always bothered me. He tells the story of killing everyone who didn’t want to come to his wedding!

    Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

    It’s amazing what you will see in the Gospels if you take off the “Jesus meek and mild” glasses. For example, in Luke 19:27 Jesus said “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” What’s not to love about a leader like that?

  84. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    What’s worse Richard is when professional atheists get up on stage and attempt to explain that indeed there is no objective morality in the world. These to me are the “do what thou wilt” people, the law of the jungle people. It’s the same law of the jungle, law of the tribe if you will, as the OT, which itself is objectively immoral and yet it’s prettied up as being the source of objective morality.

    Anyone who was born into a family, anyone who has to work around other people, anyone in a group setting, or anyone who lives in a society, knows that objective morality emanates from the family, from the group that works or lives together, whose core concerns are to get along together and to work together, to be productive (creative, as in Creation) and peaceful. This requires not lying to each other and respecting the other person and that other person’s property. These values are objectively true. Ask the Jew those two questions, now the Christian, then the Muslim. They all (most people) answer the same yet the book tells them the opposite about how to treat the other.

    So we got two images. A book that speaks and people that speak. Haha. Funny stuff. I know all too well about the false prophet of revelations and about the Son of Man. It’s all fun and games (not really) until the bogeyman actually shows up, and the people judge it’s nature. Judgment day. God on trial. And then, according to Jesus, all the tribes of the Earth will mourn. Really, ALL of them? Awesome.

  85. Posted December 20, 2014 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    What’s worse Richard is when professional atheists get up on stage and attempt to explain that indeed there is no objective morality in the world. These to me are the “do what thou wilt” people, the law of the jungle people. It’s the same law of the jungle, law of the tribe if you will, as the OT, which itself is objectively immoral and yet it’s prettied up as being the source of objective morality.

    I know what you’re talking about. I once saw a Christian reduce an atheist to a babbling fool because he refused to admit that there was such a thing as “absolute truth.” It was quite pathetic.

    Disputes about “objective morality” often twist on confusion about the meaning of “objective.” That’s why I establish the scientific meaning of that word in the beginning of my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality. I think that morality is objective by its very nature, as I explained in my article Morality is Objective, Like a Pair of Scales: Another Fatal Flaw in Dr. Craig’s Argument for God.

    Anyone who was born into a family, anyone who has to work around other people, anyone in a group setting, or anyone who lives in a society, knows that objective morality emanates from the family, from the group that works or lives together, whose core concerns are to get along together and to work together,

    I agree that morality stems from our humanity, but would add that our understanding of morality is dependant upon our self-consciousness (ability to reflect on our actions) and rationality (big brain). That’s what makes us “moral agents.” This is why William Lane Craig’s argument that we would be “nothing but animals with no moral obligations” under atheism is so ludicrous. He deceives his audience by equating human animals with other animals that don’t have the requisite faculties to be moral agents. And he’s one of the “greatest” Christian philosophers? I discuss this intellectual travesty in my article Why Most Animals Are Not Philosophers: Fatal Flaws in Dr. Craig’s Moral Argument for God.

  86. Posted December 20, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Christ-mas present for Richard and Rose and Michael Free:

    John Lennox

    “ABOUT JOHN LENNOX
    John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, is an internationally renowned speaker on the interface of science, philosophy and religion. He regularly teaches at many academic institutions including the Said Business School, Wycliffe Hall and the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics, as well as also being a Senior Fellow with the Trinity Forum. He has written a series of books exploring the relationship between science and Christianity and he has also participated in a number of televised debates with some of the world’s leading atheist thinkers.”

    Books:
    Seven Days that Divide the World
    God’s Undertaker – Has Science Buried
    God Stephen Hawking Design Anyway
    Definition Christianity David W. Gooding
    Gunning God Critique New Atheism

    YouTube Debates:
    Design of the Universe
    Interview: Science and the Bible
    Atheism and Morality
    Interview: Debating Christopher Hitchings
    Interview: Creator of the Universe
    The Great Debate: John Lennox vs. Michael Shermer
    Does God Exist ( 1 of 10 parts)

  87. Posted December 20, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Christ-mas present for Richard and Rose and Michael Free:

    John Lennox

    “ABOUT JOHN LENNOX
    John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, is an internationally renowned speaker on the interface of science, philosophy and religion.

    Hi Wesley,

    I’m familiar with John Lennox. I saw a segment of his debate with Richard Dawkins. I don’t recall being impressed by his arguments. I will take a look at the videos you linked and let you know what I think. In the meanwhile, it would be interesting if you would present what you think is the BEST argument there is for the existence of God.

  88. Posted December 20, 2014 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Wesley,

    I’m listening to the Shermer – Lennox debate. I’m currently on video #3 @ 3:30, and John Lennox says this:

    Almost all of the great classical philosophers, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza, Kant, Hegel, Lock, Berkeley, saw the origin of the universe lying in a transcendent reality. They had different specific ideas of this reality, but that the universe is not self-explanatory and it requires some explanation beyond itself was something they accepted as fairly obvious.

    Such arguments seem completely irrelevant to me. Who cares what those people thought? They were living in pre-scientific times. They knew less about how reality works than the average 4th grader today.

    I’ve been studying this topic for decades. First as a devout Christian for 17 years and now as an atheist. I doubt there is an argument for God that I have not heard, and I have yet to hear even one that is convincing. Have you ever heard a convincing argument? If so, why don’t you present it and see how it stands in light of logic and facts? Merely posting links to Christian apologists is quite pointless since I’ve already heard all their arguments and found them wanting.

  89. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Wesley,

    Thanks for the links.

    I’m not going to check them out though.

    The answer that Richard is asking for, your best argument for the existence of God, that would be interesting and worth reading.

    I’m afraid that in Richards holster is a task killer though, for his argument against the existence of God is the non-existence of God. Where is he/she/it ?

    I don’t want to be a liar though so I will tell you plainly. I believe that there is a supernatural intelligent entity/being/beings/humans that have passed already/something intelligent that attempts to communicate. I also believe in a universal salvation heaven for everyone when we pass, although it’s best to wash up here on Earth and not to bring that filth to heaven with us. I’m not going to argue these things though because it is pointless, and besides I don’t know the true nature of the supernatural entity, good or evil, so how could I vouch for that which I do not know and which I have no faith in? I don’t trust the supernatural but I do trust the truth, because it is good, and Mark Twain also, and Richard and Rose. Truth tellers and people who are appalled by murder and torture and crimes against humanity are trustworthy indeed.

  90. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I believe the evidence needed to prove the existence of God deity/supernatural intelligence is either:

    1. Some supernatural intelligent phenomenon that everyone can see that surpasses the aliens using technology test.

    2. Some texts, code, numbers, or objects written or created a long time ago that accurately predict across time very specific un-riddled things about our current time, such as people’s names, specifics about people born long after the code, or events that occur, something that can’t be counterfeited, like the creation of the State of Israel is a counterfeit. In other words, anything that shows intelligence that can see through time into the future and that man cannot counterfeit.

  91. Posted December 20, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    The best argument for Christianity – which is built on the Tri-unity of God is the Resurrection. If you can disprove the Resurrection, then like Paul says:

    12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

    Go ahead try to disprove the resurrection. Give it your best shot. You don’t have to convince me, I already believe that it is true and will not be swayed. You have to convince all of Chrisendom.

    Now at the same time as I said earlier, creation and our consciences will testify against us:

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools Romans 1:18-22

    and

    15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    I would not want to be in your shoes if you do not accept Jesus’ sacrifice for you. Have a good day.

  92. MichaelFree
    Posted December 20, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Wesley,

    How can anyone disprove the resurrection of Jesus Christ? For that matter, how can anyone prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

    And then you end your comment with a threat: “I would not want to be in your shoes if you do not accept Jesus’ sacrifice for you. Have a good day”.

    There you go parading your fear and hate! And then you say to “have a good day”! Try fishing on the other side of the boat Wesley, you know the love and truth side! FEAR AND HATE ARE SATAN. Why don’t you understand this? Your ideology about not wanting to be in non-Christian shoes produces fear in the Christian and in the non-Christian and it produces hate in the Christian and in the non-Christian. It’s a destructive ideology that can’t wait to get its hands on the reins of government in every government that the ideology lives under, so as to oppress the non-believer. Your teeth are going to get broke by the Son of Man. Your religion will remain but your teeth will be broken.

    You do know there is another side of the boat don’t you?

    How many billions of people have heard the story of Jesus’ crucifixion Wesley? How many billions of people that aren’t Christian who have heard the story? If billions of non-Christians believe in Jesus’ innocence, that he didn’t deserve to be put to death like he did, because he did nothing wrong, who are you to say that they don’t believe in Jesus? Who are you to say that they don’t believe in Jesus!

    According to people like you my father is in hell right now. Along with many of my relatives for not being Christians. My father was a kind man with PTSD from the Korean War. He was a “drop out” of society because society is perverse. You try to fear people like me out and try to get us to bow to your God that sends my own father to hell. No chance. None. You better check what it is exactly that you are bowing to Wesley. You remember what was said about Jesus and the devil in the desert? The devil tempted him that if Jesus would only bow to him that he would give Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world. You know what a lot of Christians think Wesley, that if they bow to Jesus that they will be given all the Kingdoms of the world when Jesus returns. “Jesus” is another God that the Fathers knew not about according to the OT. According to the OT they could kill Jesus because he broke the Sabbath and called himself the Son of God. What day is the Sabbath Wesley? Is it Saturday or Sunday? Have you changed the Jewish holidays into pagan holidays and bow to a cross, an idol? And what is this fucking “Christmas” and this “Satan Clause” where the kids are told a lie about the existence of Santa Claus, you know the “Satan Clause”, the father of lies, a pagan holiday that stipulates (clause) that you lie to children? Mithras birthday, I wonder what human that wants to be called pope put this crap there. Jesus said to never call clergy “father” yet how many billions call their priest pope or father? How many billions confess sins to priests when the victim and God alone are the only righteous ones to confess sins to? The sword cuts both ways Wesley. I’m not buying your filthy fear trip.

    God showed me in one night that righteous anger and love defeats your filthy fear demon. Love, Truth, and Peace, the righteous path.

  93. Posted December 21, 2014 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Excellent post Michael. You hit a dozen nails squarely on the head.

  94. Posted December 21, 2014 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Go ahead try to disprove the resurrection. Give it your best shot. You don’t have to convince me, I already believe that it is true and will not be swayed. You have to convince all of Chrisendom.

    You have it exactly backwards Wesley. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. By your standard, believers are justified to believe anything that cannot be proven false. This would imply the Muslim belief that Muhammad flew to the moon on a horse is as valid as the resurrection of Christ because no one can prove it did not happen. Simply stated, your position is absurd.

    I’m glad you have finally revealed your true colors. Your assertion that you will not be “swayed” by any evidence shows that your belief is blind, like a cult member. There is no conclusive evidence for the resurrection. It’s nothing but a religious dogma that you believe because you were told to believe it by your religious authorities. All the “evidence” and arguments you have presented are therefore irrelevant because you would believe regardless of the evidence. You are exactly like the pseudo-philosopher William Lane Craig who says that believers are justified to believe whatever they want, even when all the evidence contradicts their beliefs, so long as they feel that they have the “witness of the Holy Spirit.” His pretense to be a philosopher is a profound absurdity. He exemplifies how dogmatic religion tends to destroy the minds of believers.

    Finally, your assertion that I would “have to convince all of Christendom” is equally absurd. By that standard, you cannot deny that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah until you convince all 1.3 billion of the Muslims.

  95. MichaelFree
    Posted December 22, 2014 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    Your post is excellent. I like the plain talk and heartfelt truths. It’s very powerful because it’s true.

  96. Mark Scholten
    Posted December 24, 2014 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr. Mc. Cough

    The logic of the trinity can easily be explained:
    Take three christmas candles, hold them close together. You will end up with just one flame.
    Take a red light, a yellow light and a blue light.
    A red light is light,
    A yellow light is light
    A blue light is light.
    Close together they will form just one white light.

    As I wrote earlier: We will never be able to prove God’s existence.
    For me that’s just fine, I can live with that, because I know that God proves my existence.
    I used to think that I had to believe in God. I thought that for years. But really it doesn’t matter if I believe in God. What matters is, if God believes in me.

    And don’t be to hard on Wesley Steinbrink. He is a good guy, who wants the best for you and who wants you to believe in the same God as he does.

    Mark

    Enjoy your Christmas, Jesus came in this world 4 you 2.

  97. MichaelFree
    Posted December 27, 2014 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    I like your comment. Good stuff. It made me smile.

    I’m sure Wesley is probably a good person and a good neighbor to everyone.

    I hope I didn’t offend anyone with my comments and I apologize if I did. My heart is not one of animosity but rather it’s quite the opposite.

    I saw today what is probably a Hindu father and his two or three year old son chillin at Walmart living the good life. The very smile producing humanity of which crushes any idea of an exclusive heaven based on religion or any idea of a place called hell. They are defeated in milliseconds.

    The truth is the most high.

    Take care.

  98. Gnade
    Posted December 28, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Michael Free, a smile is no indicator of whether someone is saved or unsaved. I smiled for many decades, but was not born again!

    Open up the holy Bible in John 3 and come, like Nicodemus did, to listen to what the good Shepherd has to say to you.

  99. Gnade
    Posted December 28, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Mark Scholten, it is vitally important that you believe in the God of the holy Bible, for He teaches that without faith in Him you would displease Him.

    Without trust or faith in Him you would lack a right understanding of Him and fail to glorify Him.

  100. Gnade
    Posted December 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Richard and Rose, the invitation to fall in love with the God of the holy Bible is still open!

    Man has to be willing to be a deep searcher for truth, in order to find and get to know the author of life.

    He is a God of revelation. This means He can decide to reveal Himself to us.

    For example, He can bless us with a confidence for prayer
    or withhold this blessing from us.

    Likewise, He can bless us with a hunger and thirst for righteousness or He can in certain situations decide to punish us by giving us over to a depraved mind.

    Are you both willing in 2015 to learn from the Teacher of teachers?

  101. MichaelFree
    Posted December 28, 2014 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    It’s not just a smile Gnade. It’s much more than that.

    Hindus become Hindus the same way that Christians become Christians. This is the truth that your faith overlooks. And in just the same way that a Christian can be good or evil so can a Hindu be good or evil. God is cruel, anti-truth, and anti-life if he saves the unrighteous Christian while condemning the righteous Hindu.

    Moreover, condemning anyone to a torturous place called hell is cruel and inhumane and is not a God that I want to worship but would rather see restrained.

  102. Gnade
    Posted December 29, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Dear readers, man thinks and behaves very impurely.

    This statement applies to every human being who has ever lived, except the sinless Son of God, the Messiah.

    All human beings sin and the only exception was the good Shepherd.

    He warned people of hell and everything that He says is totally trustworthy.

    Only the God of the holy Bible can grant sinful
    man right standing with Him.

    Right standing before God can’t be achieved by anything man can do, because right standing before God is His gracious gift.

    Most people in the world have a wrong standing before the God of the holy Bible. They are unsaved and haven’t been born again.

    All these billions of unsaved people have never known Almighty God in an intimate relationship!

    Their only hope is to hunger and thirst for righteousness, for that is what God blesses.

    However, because most hunger and thirst for unrigteousness during their lives and refuse defiantly to trust and obey God, He will punish them as He said He will! That’s just, not injust!

  103. Mark Scholten
    Posted December 30, 2014 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Dear Michael Free
    Dear Gnade

    3 John: 11 “Anyone who does what is good is from God.”
    So yes a good Hindu, who doesn’t know or doesn’t reject Jesus/God will be accepted by God.
    Dear Gnade, Jesus warned us not to judge other people ( Mathew 7). So be careful with what you write.
    Dear Michael Free, It doesn’t matter if we can not imagine heaven. It doesn’t matter if we can not imagine hell. It even doesn’t matter if we can not imagine God. All I was saying is that God is just a little bit too big for our imagination. And what we can not imagine we can not prove. But what we can not prove doesn’t mean that we can not trust.
    Dear Gnade, I don’t have to hold on to God while he carries me.

  104. MichaelFree
    Posted December 30, 2014 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    When I was a child I almost drowned to death in a swimming pool. I had a near-death-experience where I was swimming under water toward a white light that was glowing. I had a big ear to ear smile on my face and felt completely comforted, warm, and happy. I believe I was on my way to Heaven and then came back when my brother saved my life. That’s how I “imagine” heaven, that what I felt and experienced is real. I imagine hell is a condition, not a place, a separation from the truth, just as the unrepentant liar has separated from the truth, and that it’s good to learn this lesson while we are here on Earth, and repent, so as to go to heaven having learned to love the truth, other people, and the world. I asked my brother years later what I was doing under water, where I remember swimming toward a light, and he said I was sunk on the deep end of the pool, like a log, motionless.

    The only reason I comment here, and I’m sure I’ve been offensive to some, is that these articles and comments are good for me, and are talking about things that I can learn from in an environment that doesn’t mind speaking freely. I don’t want to win a debate but rather want to learn and understand and come to the truth. I’m not at war with religion and am content with “minding my own business” and becoming a passerby, as long as others mind their own business, and become passersby.

    The world is a provably better place when we help one another, don’t lie to each other, and learn to honor and respect other people and their belongings.

  105. MichaelFree
    Posted December 30, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Sorry about straying from the topic again.

    Take care.

  106. Gnade
    Posted December 31, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Mark, nobody who worships the gods of Hinduism is good in God’s way of seeing things. He calls false worshippers out of false worship, for He desires to save them.

  107. MichaelFree
    Posted January 1, 2015 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’m a true humanist first and a most high second type of person. It seems you are a most high first and
    humanist AND non-humanist second type of person

    I guess it was how I was raised. It is in my blood to stand before the most high accordingly, with respect,
    not wild accusations about its nature.

    I’d have to meet the most high in order to know how the most high is in person, how it’s nature is. If I speculate or take a human beings word for it, it’s not trustworthy.

    I like people of all sorts and I don’t think the world is going to hell.

    Here’s something, maybe you can answer Richard’s question regarding evidence for the existence of God?

  108. MichaelFree
    Posted January 1, 2015 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    There are truly heartwarmingly good people in all religions of the world and including those who are atheists. This goodness to me is the most high. Not only is it offensive if a human being is cruel to another human being because of their religion it is also offensive if the most high is cruel to another human being because of their religion. Cruelty itself is offensive.

    I like peace and a smile, a Saturday afternoon, day off, doing my hobbies and relaxing, smile on my face, enjoying life.

  109. MichaelFree
    Posted January 1, 2015 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Before I can know the heart of the most high I must know what it is truly like to love thy neighbor. And everyone in the world and the world itself is my neighbor. Then I know the heart of the most high. This is walking with God. Mastering righteousness in the environment while we are in the environment. Seeing peace even amongst those not like ourselves and seeing peace watching people do things that we ourselves would not do. And yet its peace indeed so I smile and I know God is good.

    Judging righteously means something and judging by religion instead of Spirit is a big lie. The guy on the cross next to Jesus, that professed his own guilt, and his repentance for it, and also Jesus’ innocence, this was Spirit he was doing this in, and it wasn’t a religion, and Jesus said he was going to paradise.

    All those who say Jesus was innocent go to Heaven (paradise) and Jesus prayed for all the rest and surely the prayer is answered so everyone goes to Heaven.

    This is what he said.

  110. MichaelFree
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    I remember when I was a kid, probably when I was around five or six or seven, one of my friends in the neighborhood who was around the same age as me told me he saw the devil in his room. He was a Jehovah’s Witness, a good friend of mine, whose head had been filled with mush.

    At the time I remember I didn’t understand these things from him because my Father killed the devil by not teaching me about such nonsense. The fear must of taken him over. Fear of the supernatural is a horrible thing to teach little children. It can only be described as bad.

    I recently saw my friend from when I was a child’s Mother. Tbey don’t really talk anymore I guess. I see her as a good peaceful woman. She tried telling me about Jehovah’s Witness stuff so I told her I had my own experience with the Gospels and she asked what that was and I told her about how the Hopi have a cornmeal line that they draw on the ground in between them and foreign strangers who come to their land. The strangers would then sometimes would pass over it without consent from the Hopi and the Hopi knew what this meant; bad spirit. I told her that we are not judged on our religion but on our word and our deed.

    And she walked away.

  111. MichaelFree
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    I may have gotten a few of the details slightly wrong in the Jehovah’s Witness story but what I wrote is basically how it happened.

  112. Mark Scholten
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Dear Michael, Time for another silly story.
    About two years ago, we as a family, watched the movie Evan Almighty on tv. If you don’t know the movie it’s a funny modern day story of a modern man who is imposed with the task to build an ark. Withn the movie there’s a lot of very funny sketches with animals including some dear. A week later I was walking through the forest nearby. At some point I stopped near a stream. After 10 minutes cows started to move in the field opposite the stream. Then I heared some noise in the reed only a few meters beside of me. Out of the reed stepped a deer. The deer stopped and looked at me and I looked back. I looked into his eyes. That lasted about a full second. Then he jumped away to a safe distance. Then the next dear came out of the reed and joined him. That full second remembered me of a sketch of dear in the movie. It also connected to this verse: “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”
    That’s the first time grace is mentioned within the bible. I consider this encounter just as an Act of Random Kindness (A.R.K.) as explained at the end of the movie. Loving-kindness (Eched), grace and eyes (Ayien) are what faith is all about. Faith is not a religion. It’s a relationship. Father/Child , Brother/Sister, Friendship. You will know that you have found grace if you look God into his eyes.
    That’s the heart of faith. I made a poem about it:

    Grace is like a dear in the forest,
    Grace is like a buzzard on a branch,
    Grace is like a gull stucked within the mud,
    Grace is like eyes looking into each other,
    Grace is like knowing.
    Knowing what ?
    Knowing that.

  113. Gnade
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Michael, your teaching is wrong because you seek to find your neighbor innocent (you use the word righteous in this context incorrectly),
    whereas the true teacher, almighty God, states that unsaved man is under condemnation.

    Where is your main error? Judging from your writing over the last year I think it’s a wrong focus.

    You ought to pray to the author of the holy Bible to give you more trust in what He teaches!

    Start desiring to trust and obey Him, for He alone can reveal to you that your teachings oppose what He teaches in this crucial matter.

  114. Gnade
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Mark, grace isn’t a random act of kindess!

    Random is an adjective that means made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.

    When Noah found favor or grace with God it was because the LORD had decided to save Him.

    This true historical event teaches us that the LORD is Our gracious, loving Savior.

    Man can’t look into the eyes of God, but he can decide to long to trust and obey what He teaches and put his faith in Christ’s perfect atoning sacrifice. Truly the crucified prophet, priest, king and savior is risen!

  115. Gnade
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Michael, Pilate stated that Jesus was innocent but behaved cowardly. Verbal profession is insufficient. His actions showed that he was a hypocrite!

  116. MichaelFree
    Posted January 2, 2015 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    The malefactor on the cross next to Jesus verbally professed his innocence.

    Pilate and Caiaphas both knew Jesus was innocent yet let his crucifiers have their way with him. And yes their hands were both dirty.

    Yet Jesus prayed for everyone. This cannot be overlooked.

    You know what I think is cowardly Gnade, not standing with your fellow human beings, the so-called transgressors in the Bible. Yet what is a worse transgression, not believing a certain way, or physically torturing someone for eternity? Not believing a certain way is not a transgression at all but torture certainly is, both in this life, and in the life to come.

  117. MichaelFree
    Posted January 3, 2015 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    One can make the argument that Jesus was killed for his beliefs, not anything he did to deserve it mind you, but because of his beliefs. His beliefs that it was okay to heal someone on the Sabbath and that he was the Son of God.

    Are these not beliefs, and even religious beliefs? To the Jews they sounded like beliefs.

    In the Hebrew Scriptures it supppsedly says that it okay to kill someone for breaking the Sabbath. And supposedly its a big offense also to call yourself the Son of God.

    So the Jews were justified that it was okay to kill Jesus, a harmless and peaceful person, because of his beliefs, at least that is what their religion told them at the time.

    His coming here was to tell us that this is not okay to do to one another no matter what a book says. We should love one another instead. To not discriminate like the Parable of the Good Samaritan says to do. That we are judged on our words and our deeds. That the transgressor is always the transgressor regardless of their beliefs.

    I believe Jesus, if he was here, is peaceful like this, and not a bad person. When you judge on word and deed the judgment is true but when you judge on belief its all a big lie. This is eternally true.

  118. Gnade
    Posted January 4, 2015 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Greetings Michael,
    While its true that Jesus prayed that His heavenly Father would forgive them, whether the heavenly Father did this was entirely up to Him, for He is sovereign.

    In my opinion almost all concerned would have died unsaved, because there is no mention in the Bible of any changes occuring in the condition of their heart, mind or soul.

    It has to remembered that those who perpetrated this heinous crime against the sinless Son of God were very distant from Lord God of the holy Bible.

    They hated the purest teacher of all and so there was little hope for them!

    Not only did they hate Him, not only did they falsely accuse Him of being a servant of Satan, but motivated and empowered by Satan they were very determined to have the most loving person who ever lived on earth put to death!

    The Bread of Life was hated without a cause.

    Let’s praise the pure Prince of Peace!

  119. Mark Scholten
    Posted January 4, 2015 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Michael,
    You wrote: “When you judge on word and deed the judgment is true but when you judge on belief its all a big lie.”
    Ask a Catholic the question and he will fully agree with you. Ask the same question to a Protestant he will say that eternal life is nothing more than a gift from the good Lord.
    As I grew up in a protestant church and now live in a catholic environment, I read the scripture and found evidence for both opinions. Then I asked myself a question.
    Suppose someone comes to my door with a present. What do I want him to say ?
    1) You’r so bad and I’m ultimately good, that’s why I give you this present.
    2) You worked very had in my service and that’s why I give you a reward.
    3) I like you, you are my friend and that’s why I come to your house, to be with you.

    I choose the third option and I found evidence in the scripture for that one too. But well, if anyone else feels more comfortable with 1 or 2 just go ahead.

  120. MichaelFree
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    God answers Jesus’ prayers!

    The one who believes in Jesus believes in his innocence on the cross. The rest are those who would think he was innocent if they heard the story. Then finally there are those who for whatever reason think it was alright to crucify him. And these Jesus prayed for. That’s everyone in the world.

    Jesus said “for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should have everlasting life and shall not perish”. He is “the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by him”, and as we’ve seen, according to the cross, that is everyone in the world.

    Then Jesus said to help people who are in need. Speak the truth and do not lie. Make peace. Be peaceful. Don’t do violence.

    These are the high things. These are the spirit things. These are the good things.

    There’s more than one interpretation of the Gospels. I like the oneness one. The speak good words and do good deeds one. The stand with my fellow human beings one. The peaceful one. And yes, the smile one.

  121. MichaelFree
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 2:50 am | Permalink

    The path of truth is choosing to always tell the truth. Its also doing truth in our deeds.

    Everyone owns their person and their property. This is the truth. When we respect other people and their property we do the path of truth, true deeds.

    When you see someone in need and you would appreciate help in some way offer them help when you can. You see how this is true also?

    True words and true deeds. The path of truth. Having faith in the path. Faith in something tangible and provable and honorable.

    Jesus said it best:

    John 3: 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    The truth sayer and truth doer comes to the light of day for all to see if called to account for what they have done, but the liar and the trespasser, if called to account for what they have done, many times seeks to hide in the darkness hoping that no one finds out the truth.

  122. MichaelFree
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    When reading my comments, remember:

    Personally I don’t like religion so I’m non-religious. I only care about the truth, humanity, and the Earth.

    I can’t decipher the Bible, any part of it, OT or NT, and in fact, no one can, as it’s all a mind game. If anyone makes statements regarding the core nature of characters in the Bible or the meaning of a parable, without prefacing the statement with an “I believe” or an “I think”, then they are only fooling themselves.

    Awesome.

  123. Gnade
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Michael, the light in your quote refers to the Lord God, for
    He is the light of the world. Very few people come to Him, because they prefer the lies of Satan.

  124. Gnade
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Michael, the Bible is God’s gift to us. He doesn’t play mind games with us.

    We can’t decipher His eternal Word in our own strength, for He decided that He wouldn’t allow that because man would then boast about what he has done.

    The God of the holy Bible reveals truth to man when He decides to!

    His teaching voice says listen to my sinless beloved Son.

    Everything the Son of Man taught is totally trustworthy. He taught that He is the light of the world.

    He is God with us when we are a child of God, for His spirit comes to dwell with us.

    Until man is born again he is separated from God. He is enslaved and needs to seek God, for He can rescue broken and contrite sinners.

  125. MichaelFree
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    When you exchange a “being” for the the truth then the truth you will never find. The light is not a “being”. The truth is not a “being”. Love is not a “being”. You have to make stuff up to believe that a “being” is any one of those things. That “being” that you worship that divides humanity according to belief in the “being” is a stumbling block to actually finding the truth, and is not truth itself, but the biggest lie and the biggest con game every devised. I can only think of one character in the Bible that plays games on this level. And I can think of its final result, the destruction of the Earth, because man was too stupid to rule himself and instead looked to the bogeyman and fought over the bogeyman until one day the Earth was destroyed. And the bogeyman had the last laugh, stupid humans. Either that or sky-daddy sends a baby sitter, a dishonor to human beings honor and duty, a shameful day, not a day of rejoice.

    Jews have their “being”.
    Christians have their “being”.
    Muslims have their “being”.

    And each of their “beings” hates the others “being” while the truth is right before their own two eyes and yet they are blinded to it by the “being”. Seeing the humanity in other people that the divisive “being” said not to is a gift to humanity, indeed seeing each others humanity is love, truth, peace, all the highest things. Seeing humanity is easy and true but seeing the “being” is impossible and a big lie.

    I know that there is a supernatural intelligence. I hope that it values the truth, not this “being” nonsense. Sound hard to imagine? Just because many humans are stupid and slavish and bow to mammon, and if they themselves one day get into power don’t mind being bowed “to”, does not mean the the “intelligence” values such ignorance and slavery.

    I’m not playing this BS anymore.

    Goodbye.

  126. MichaelFree
    Posted January 9, 2015 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I apologize if I’ve offended you in any way. I don’t think you worship evil. I think you worship a good God who is more good than you’ve imagined.

  127. Posted January 9, 2015 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Michael, the Son of Man was a person! He is still a person. The author of life has the attributes of divine being or person.
    God bless you!

  128. Posted January 9, 2015 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Michael, I don’t need to imagine anything about the LORD because He has come to dwell with me.

  129. Posted January 10, 2015 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    He is the light of the world. Very few people come to Him, because they prefer the lies of Satan.

    Not true. People don’t come to him because they do not believe he exists. They would be literally insane if they believed he actually existed and yet rejected him in favor of Satan and eternal torment in hell.

  130. Posted January 10, 2015 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Michael, the Bible is God’s gift to us. He doesn’t play mind games with us.

    We can’t decipher His eternal Word in our own strength, for He decided that He wouldn’t allow that because man would then boast about what he has done.

    And how is anyone supposed to discern between a “true interpretation” vs. one they just made up out of their own imagination? If you can answer that question, then you will have solved all the religious disputes that have divided Christendom into 30,000 denominations. Good luck with that! ;)

  131. Posted January 11, 2015 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    Greetings Richard, if you read the Bible you will notice that God teaches that God came to earth but most people rejected Him. The Bible teaches that the sinless Son of God was despised and rejected. In order to despise and reject someone man has to know that He exists!

  132. Posted January 11, 2015 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    Richard, did the pharisees know the Good Shepherd existed? The answer is Yes. And Yes most of them refused to trust and obey Him.

  133. Posted January 11, 2015 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    Discernment is a gift of God. Only people who the LORD blesses with a right understanding will have a right understanding! The God of the Bible teaches that his people perish because of a lack of understanding.
    Enjoy your Bible studies!

  134. Posted January 11, 2015 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard, if you read the Bible you will notice that God teaches that God came to earth but most people rejected Him. The Bible teaches that the sinless Son of God was despised and rejected. In order to despise and reject someone man has to know that He exists!

    Hey there Reine,

    Yes, a person must exist before he can be “despised and rejected” but there is no need for him to be the Son of God in order for people to claim he was. That’s the problem. You blindly believe what the Bible says and apparently have no interest in whether or not it is actually true.

  135. Posted January 11, 2015 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Richard, believing the Bible isn’t a blind belief but a gift to man from the author of the Bible.
    Enjoy 2015!

  136. Posted January 11, 2015 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Richard, believing the Bible isn’t a blind belief but a gift to man from the author of the Bible.
    Enjoy 2015!

    Your belief that your belief in the Bible is a “gift from the author of the Bible” is just another blind belief. It seems you don’t understand the definition of “blind belief.” Blind belief is believing without having a sufficient reason.

    You cannot give a reason for your belief so your belief is blind by definition. It is no different than a Muslim or Mormon believing in their religion.

  137. Mark Scholten
    Posted January 14, 2015 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Dear R. A. McGough,
    Well Said !!! Belief is blindness just as Love is blindness. Would you want to live without love ?
    Last couple of weeks I had to delve into the life of John Lennon. The “great” preacher of Love.
    Guess what ? His last 2 albums showed that he realized, that true love is a gift from God.
    Delving deeply into it, but still only touching the surface, I understand, that he must have lived in hell for a great part of his live. He was shot down, because he stepped out of it.

    My line of believe is more or less the same as Jack Zavada’s:
    From: http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/a/proofgodexists.htm
    ” Even in high school, I couldn’t buy the Big Bang Theory for the creation of the universe. Mathematicians and scientists seemed to ignore a simple equation familiar to all grammar school children: 0 + 0 = 0
    ….
    Atheists Have a Point
    The most brilliant mathematicians using the most powerful supercomputers in the world would fail to settle this question for one simple reason: You can’t use equations to prove the existence of love.
    That’s what God is. That is His essence, and love can’t be dissected, calculated, analyzed or measured.
    ….
    A Proof Even Better Than Math ”

    I admit that I use the same line of thinking. I don’t believe in Evolution. I see frogs change from fish into land-animals within 1 generation, it doesn’t take 100 million years.
    I don’t believe in wicked Beatles. (Witch Circles, Satanic circles or Kaballah circles) Do you know and realize that there is an awful lot of connection between the “wickedness” of the Beatles, Scientology, Kabbalah and Hindu beliefs. Both in beliefs and in connected people. People step into it because they want fame, power, sex or money, not because they want to live in eternal pain. Most people think they are trapped in a circle and cannot get out of it. They are wrong. I’ve seen proof of people changing their lives.
    I did/do see/hear other people belief in God and testify about Him.
    I see beauty-full nature everywhere I look. Mostly all things I see are created by someone, so why not nature itself ? Inside nature there is a lot of random variation. I read about how to create virtual reality.
    In order to create virtual reality you must apply a lot of random variation. Example: To create a mountain ridge, you can take a line of triangles pointed upwards. Regular triangles, all the same same size don’t look like a mountain ridge, but look like a boring set of triangles. You must vary them in size and angles, to make them look more natural. But they still don’t look very natural. You must repeat the same process to the surface of the triangles to create the mountain slopes. Then it starts to look a little bit more natural. Then you must repeat the same process again on the mountain slopes to create the rocks on the mountain slopes….
    Then you finally got what looks more or less like a natural looking mountain ridge.
    The same can be seen within the bible. Small things in a random pattern (or Gnade must we say reigndom ?) are repeated in larger scale within other parts of the bible. In all kinds of variations.
    That’s why the bible in itself isn’t a boring book and keeps people attracted to it.
    In order to write the bible, the way it is now, the author must have known about virtual reality.
    And must have had access to supercomputing power to spread it randomly to avoid boring regular patterns. So yes, there are patterns within the bible. and Richard, your first observations on Isaiah were absolutely right. That’s it. I think I have nothing more to add. So now I quit writing on this forum, although I might come back later just for reading
    Good luck to you all. Enjoy this world. God bless you,

    Mark

  138. Posted January 15, 2015 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Mark, neither genuine belief or love is blind! You are teaching the very opposite of what is true with such thoughts!

  139. Posted January 15, 2015 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Mark, God does know exactly what John Lennon believed when he was gunned down by a satanist.
    When I was at high school I understood that life was a gift of the Creator, but I was still an unsaved man. Understanding that life is a gift of the Creator is a promising starting point, but God’s gift of salvation is something wonderfully different than this. Study John 3!

    The God of the holy Bible is love. Nothing associated with Him is blind, so love isn’t blind.
    When man demonstrates the attributes of love like faith in the Author of life one notices that one becomes more patient and kind. This provides evidence of the transformative power of God’s love. On this point your understanding is correct.

  140. Posted January 15, 2015 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard and Rose, what a blessing it is that you still have the opportunity to honour, magnify and serve such a perfect, pure, compassionate Creator as the God of the holy Bible. Truly His perfect love can cast out fear (See 1 John 4:18)

    Yes, truly God’s perfect, cleansing love can cast out all forms of fear that can beset a human being to his hurt.

    As you diligently and sincerely seek God to honour Him He will purify you! Truly God ought to be the love of your life now and for eternity!

    Precious friends, let’s praise God daily as the person who makes love grow! What a glorious reason we have to return His love!

    In 1 Thessalonians 3:12 we read: “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,

    1 John 4:8 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    1 Corinthians 13 4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. 3 And now abideth faith, hope, charity (love), these three; but the greatest of these is charity (love).

    Searchers for truth, when we link 1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13 together we can gain a correct insight about God’s character.

    Truly the God who reveals Himself; in the holy Bible can be our joy, strength and life, for His gracious love is tender. nurturing, truth and love strengthening ! Enjoy your Bible studies!

  141. Posted January 17, 2015 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Dear R. A. McGough,
    Well Said !!! Belief is blindness just as Love is blindness. Would you want to live without love ?

    Hey there Mark,

    The idea that “love is blind,” or rather blinding, is a scientific fact established in this study using fMRI brain scans, which shows that it can actually deactivate neural networks involved in critical thinking. This makes good sense in terms of evolutionary biology, as explained in the article. It is commonly understood that strong emotions, such as “blind rage” or fear (which Frank Herbert called the “mind killer”) tend to deactivate the higher functions of the mind involved in analysis and critical thinking.

    I don’t see how this relates to or could justify the concept of “blind faith.” The deactivation of higher rational functions is a consequence of emotion, not a justification of it (as if emotions even need “justification”). Blind faith is defined as believing something without sufficient reason. There is no justification for it. Indeed, it seems quite absurd, in a most literal sense, to try to justify believing things without evidence since that is what all the cults do. Are you beliefs really no different than the beliefs of cults like Scientology, Islam, Heaven’s Gate, and Jim Jones? Blind belief can lead to death. It should be avoided at all costs.

    Last couple of weeks I had to delve into the life of John Lennon. The “great” preacher of Love.
    Guess what ? His last 2 albums showed that he realized, that true love is a gift from God.
    Delving deeply into it, but still only touching the surface, I understand, that he must have lived in hell for a great part of his live. He was shot down, because he stepped out of it.

    I have no idea why you would think that John Lennon believed in God. Have you never heard his most famous song, “Imagine”? It’s commonly known as an “atheist anthem.”

    And what do you mean when you say that “He was shot down, because he stepped out of it”? Are you saying that God had him killed for failing to believe in him?

    My line of believe is more or less the same as Jack Zavada’s:
    From: http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/a/proofgodexists.htm
    ” Even in high school, I couldn’t buy the Big Bang Theory for the creation of the universe. Mathematicians and scientists seemed to ignore a simple equation familiar to all grammar school children: 0 + 0 = 0

    Yes, and school children also know that -1 + 1 = 0, which is the scientific basis of the hypothesis that the universe could have come from nothing. It appears that the gravitational potential energy, which is negative, may exactly balance the positive energy of mass/energy so that the total energy of the universe could actually be zero.

    I see no convincing arguments on that page. Their argument for the resurrection is particularly weak because it is based on the assumption that the Bible is true, so its entirely circular. We have no evidence that there were any apostles going about preaching a resurrected Jesus in year 30 AD. All the records we have come much later. It would be like saying that we should believe the “records” of the Mormon Church concerning the gold plates supposedly found by Joseph Smith. It is very easy to prove that Smith was a fraud who made up his religion out of whole cloth because he lived very recently in an age of newspapers, photographs, and fact checkers. Yet now there are millions of people who believe the stories he made up. I see absolutely no reason to think that the people who made up Christianity could not have done something similar.

    Atheists Have a Point
    The most brilliant mathematicians using the most powerful supercomputers in the world would fail to settle this question for one simple reason: You can’t use equations to prove the existence of love.
    That’s what God is. That is His essence, and love can’t be dissected, calculated, analyzed or measured.

    If God is love, then God most certainly is not the God of the Bible.

    And love does not “exist” like a thing. That’s a confusion of terms. I have no idea what you think you mean when you say “the existence of love.” That’s like saying “the existence of anger” or “the existence of boredom.” Those are terms that describe the emotional state of humans. They have no existence in and of themselves.

    I admit that I use the same line of thinking. I don’t believe in Evolution. I see frogs change from fish into land-animals within 1 generation, it doesn’t take 100 million years.

    How is it that you feel justified to reject an advanced science of which you evidently know nothing? Your comment is a perfect example of the damage done by blind faith. It teaches people that ignorance is salvation and makes them victims of cult leaders.

  142. MichaelFree
    Posted January 18, 2015 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    I believe there is an advanced supernatural intelligence from the afterlife that can communicate with us.

    I also ~95% believe in evolution as stated by science. The other ~5% believes humans may have been civilized for a longer time than science has revealed and that our origins are suspect. I don’t believe ancient people were stupid by no means.

    To me what I think Mark said was that that John Lennon stepped out of hell and into love and then was gunned down.

    It’s hard to reason with a set ideology. It’s impervious to reason at a certain set point in the discussion, which is what this is, a peaceful discussion on a website.

    Let me ask you something.

    Think of all the times in your life where you went wrong and did something bad.

    These things here will encompass them all: Lying and not physically respecting other people or their property, and perhaps for some, not helping other people who were in need when we could have.

    These are the root things. Like a child. A child is told “do not lie” and “leave them and their things alone”.

    Its the peaceful way. You are honoring the truth in word and in deed, the truth that we have the right to say “mind your own business” to one another and live peaceably and productively. It’s also righteous judgment for what is bad.

    When I speak and do the truth all the time and am up to date with my repentance I’m centered and am happier and at “home”.

    When you know what is good the bad sticks out like a sore thumb and the judgment is righteous. Wisdom and knowing “why” something is wrong, and being correct, is a gift from “the truth”.

  143. MichaelFree
    Posted January 18, 2015 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    I said “I don’t believe ancient people were stupid by no means” and I meant to say “any means”.

  144. Posted January 18, 2015 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Richard, God is love and He most certainly is the God of the holy Bible. Ten years ago you wrote the truth on this subject even though you were, in my opinion, not born again.

    Return to the good Shepherd whilst it is still possible!

  145. Posted January 18, 2015 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Richard, God is love and He most certainly is the God of the holy Bible. Ten years ago you wrote the truth on this subject even though you were, in my opinion, not born again.

    Return to the good Shepherd whilst it is still possible!

    First you say that I was never saved, and then you say I should “return” to the good shepherd? That makes no sense. I can’t “return” to a place I’ve never been before.

    But I already have been where you say I should go. I asked you what you think I should do that I didn’t do when I was a believer, and you have not answered. So please answer me this:

    What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Answer me that!

  146. Posted January 18, 2015 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    I believe there is an advanced supernatural intelligence from the afterlife that can communicate with us.

    Why would you believe that? Have you received some “communication” that shows signs of “advanced supernatural intelligence?” I used to think that’s what I found in the Bible Wheel and gematria, but now I see that I was deluded. The patterns could have been a million times better if actually designed by an “advanced supernatural intelligence.” That’s what finally broke the spell for me. I realized that I could have designed a Bible Wheel a billion times better than the one that I thought God had designed.

    I also ~95% believe in evolution as stated by science. The other ~5% believes humans may have been civilized for a longer time than science has revealed and that our origins are suspect. I don’t believe ancient people were stupid by no means.

    I agree that ancient people were not stupid. They had the same intelligence we have today. The only difference is the accumulation of knowledge, which has conquered much of the superstitions once believed by ignorant (though highly intelligent) humans.

    I see no reason to think our origins are “suspect.” What evidence are you thinking of?

  147. MichaelFree
    Posted January 18, 2015 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I saw something supernatural in the early 90’s. It was, and remains, a “I know what I saw and I’m not crazy” incident. I’m not going to describe it as it was something completely unprovable to a third party.

    So basically it’s a “belief” and an argument loser.

    My belief that our origins are suspect is merely a belief also, as all is possible. The theory of evolution is a theory but it is the most likely scenario.

    I can tell you this, the Bible is hostile to someone who does not seek blind subservience to its version of God but rather seeks the truth, not the truth about God, but the truth about the truth itself, the answer to the question “how can I live truthfully, and provably so, in the ways I affect matter with my physical form?”

    The Bible can be thought of as a test of ones humanity towards other human beings and what we are willing to “trade” that humanity for.

    How many “Christians” think that you Richard are unworthy of comfort for all of eternity all for some stupid meaningless belief that you didn’t hold while you were here on Earth surrounded by jackals? That’s a real choice that they are making if they truly believe In the BS they’re pushing. What if you discovered a cure for cancer while you were here and helped countless people (while millennia of prayer failed) be healed? Prayer failed, Richard didn’t, off to the pit Richard goes. It’s all so absurd and inhuman.

    Take care.

  148. MichaelFree
    Posted January 18, 2015 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Just in the last several comments Reine had this to say about you:

    “Greetings Richard and Rose, what a blessing it is that you STILL have the opportunity to honour, magnify and serve such a perfect, pure, compassionate Creator as the God of the holy Bible. Truly His perfect love can cast out fear (See 1 John 4:18)”

    And:

    “Return to the good Shepherd whilst it is STILL possible!”

    The darkness in these seemingly good sentences can’t be shown the light on fast enough.

    Two horns like a lamb (says it is love) but speaks like a dragon (is really antihuman and antitruth). You were threatened with eternal torture twice. You were told to “hurry up” and come back to the death cult. These things mean something to me. I take them seriously. Jesus spent just hours being tortured and they say what happened to him was abominable while at the same time they bow to an image of God that tortures humans for eternity. They quite literally are the blind leading the blind.

    There is nothing more offensive than putting our hands on peaceful people and doing violence to them. The next most offensive thing is lying. The two go hand in hand, not one without the other. Be peaceful, speak the truth, bread and wine, all else is commentary.

  149. MichaelFree
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    The process of murder is the painful part. Think about it.

    They threatened you with painful murder for eternity. They say that they are love and this is a lie. They are liars and murderers.

    This is their sales pitch (jackals): “Join the religion that thinks nothing is wrong with eternal torture. Become a “Christian” or go to hell”.

    I don’t know about you but I get to choose what my beliefs are on this planet during this lifetime and I’m not buying the condemnation and bogeyman BS. I see right through it. They are snake oil salesman.

    The person on the cross next to Jesus merely professed his own guilt and proclaimed Jesus’ innocence. Jesus said he was going to paradise. And Jesus prayed for everyone else. This is how my friend can remain whole and unblemished in the midst of usurping jackals.

    Make peace.

  150. MichaelFree
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    And I should straighten this out:

    I said

    “There is nothing more offensive than putting our hands on peaceful people and doing violence to them. The next most offensive thing is lying. The two go hand in hand, not one without the other. Be peaceful, speak the truth, bread and wine, all else is commentary”.

    It should say:

    “There is nothing more offensive than putting our hands on peaceful people and doing violence to them (or stealing or destroying their things). The next most offensive thing is lying. The two go hand in hand, not one without the other. Be peaceful, speak the truth, bread and wine, all else is commentary”.

    Peace.

  151. MichaelFree
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 5:08 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    Or said another way:

    “He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE, NEITHER WAS ANY DECEIT in his mouth.

    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand”.

  152. Annie H.
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    “What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Answer me that!”

    Be humble.

    ” I realized that I could have designed a Bible Wheel a billion times better than the one that I thought God had designed.”

    Let’s see it then.

  153. MichaelFree
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Annie H.,

    Richard was responding to a specific charge that he was never born again (un-saved) even when he was in his “believing” state.

    That is why he wrote:

    “What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Answer me that!”

    Your “be humble” comment is BS just like the false religious charge that was levied against him.

    Richard also said:

    “I realized that I could have designed a Bible Wheel a billion times better than the one that I thought God had designed.”

    And you said “Let’s see it then” because you are being ignorant. Richard is stating he found no intelligence behind the Bible Wheel, but he Richard has intelligence, and could have designed a structure for a document that corresponds with an intelligent wheel.

    Your sound bite quips mean nothing when the subject being spoken about is very serious. Don’t bring spit wads to battle with the sword.

  154. Posted January 19, 2015 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    “What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Answer me that!”

    Be humble.

    I’d follow your advice if you could show me how it’s done. Unfortunately, judging and accusing another person of being proud is not a humble act. So please try again. Your comment fulfills this verse:

    Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

  155. Posted January 19, 2015 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    Annie H.,

    Richard was responding to a specific charge that he was never born again (un-saved) even when he was in his “believing” state.

    That is why he wrote:

    “What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Answer me that!”

    Your “be humble” comment is BS just like the false religious charge that was levied against him.

    Thanks Michael. You really nailed that one. It’s not for no reason that religious believers are commonly seen as hypocrites.

    “I realized that I could have designed a Bible Wheel a billion times better than the one that I thought God had designed.”

    And you said “Let’s see it then” because you are being ignorant. Richard is stating he found no intelligence behind the Bible Wheel, but he Richard has intelligence, and could have designed a structure for a document that corresponds with an intelligent wheel.

    Your sound bite quips mean nothing when the subject being spoken about is very serious. Don’t bring spit wads to battle with the sword.

    I couldn’t have said it better myself. It should be obvious to anyone with the slightest understanding of what we are talking about that anyone with basic intelligence could design a Bible Wheel a million times better. I could have put a hundred KeyLinks in every book on every spoke proving absolutely that the whole thing was designed. As it is, the number of links on the spokes is what we would expect from random chance and that’s how I debunked myself. See my article: Debunking Myself: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

  156. Annie H.
    Posted January 19, 2015 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    You say you can write a billion times better Bible. So do it. What’s the problem? Can you do it, or not?

  157. Posted January 19, 2015 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    You say you can write a billion times better Bible. So do it. What’s the problem? Can you do it, or not?

    I didn’t say I could write a billion times better Bible. I said I could make a Bible Wheel that was a billion times better. And I explained how. If you disagree with my explanation, please explain why.

    As for writing a “better Bible” – that would be trivial. I’d just remove all the contradictions, absurdities, primitive superstitions and moral abominations attributed to god. So why don’t I do it? Because it would be a waste of time. The world doesn’t need another “Bible.” They need to learn to think for themselves using logic, common sense, and evidence rather than blindly believing what they are told to believe by their religious authorities.

  158. Annie H.
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    All the best to both of you Michael and Richard. I am sure you are both very nice people, with good values, kind to your loved ones and living thoughtful productive lives. I feel no animosity towards you for holding different opinions, nor do I feel any need to throw around labels like hypocrite or ignorant. So I will happily let those slide. As I say, I have no doubt you are both good people with sincere views.

    The humble thing is not intended as a judgement. True christianity requires humility. There’s a nice parable in Matthew 18:11 showing that God is not impressed by a smug heart, and much prefers humility. What does the Lord require of you, but to love kindness, and to do justice and to walk humbly with your God. Nothing to object to there. That’s good advice no matter what your “god” is, even if you are an atheist. Atheism is just as much a religion as any of the accepted faiths.

    So perhaps you may wish to consider whether or not you humility to be a core value, Richard, in your life. As an outside, it doesn’t really seem that it is your most polished personal asset, but I do not intend that as any kind of slight, or insult. Just an observation. That description of yourself as a Christian is kind of puffed-up, if I can say that without getting a spray back. You asked. I’m answering. It may be that your humility stood in the way of your Christianity, but that is certainly not for me to judge. You asked. I’m giving you a possible answer. If you examine yourself and find this suggestion to be off-the-mark, then it can be eliminated. But, this whole business of writing a billion times better Bible Wheel….it’s not exactly terribly humble is it.

    I think everyone’s public persona is improved as they become more humble, no matter how great they are. Indeed, the greater the man, the more beautiful humility sits upon the shoulders. Peace to both of you, and all your readers.

  159. Gnade
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    The LORD is the LORD of revelation. If He hasn’t yet revealed Himself to you, then you are still unsaved.

    Are you desiring daily the beauty of His character? Have you put your wholehearted trust in His transforming love?
    Do you believe that the sinless Son of Man was despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief?

    Do you acknowledge that you have hid your face from Him?
    Do you still despise Him? Do you still fail to esteem Him?

    Do you really want to know the truth?

    The Savior was unique amongst men, for He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

    Yet the sinless Son of David was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of His people was He stricken.

    Truly the LORD laid on the sinless good Shepherd the iniquity of us all.

    Truly, God’s beloved sinless Son was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.

    Do you believe the risen Lord shall see of the travail of His soul?

    Do you believe He shall be satisfied? Do you believe by His knowledge the God of the Bible’s righteous servant shall justify many?

    Do you believe the precious Prince of Peace has poured out His soul unto death?

    Do you believe He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Trust the King of righteousness! Trust the Teacher of teachers. Trust Your Creator!

  160. MichaelFree
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Annie H.,

    I’m sure you’re a good person also Annie.

    When I said “ignorant” I meant it. I said:

    “And you said “Let’s see it then” because you are being ignorant. Richard is stating he found no intelligence behind the Bible Wheel, but he Richard has intelligence, and could have designed a structure for a document that corresponds with an intelligent wheel”.

    These are facts Annie.

    I like Richards description of his former Christian self, because it’s very descriptive and a true account of his understanding:

    “Blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?”

    Your use of “smugness” and “humility” seems to describe a persons demeanor rather than the contrast between someone who is smug before the truth vs someone who is humble before the truth. A persons demeanor can’t hold a candle to the truth which is why I ultimately don’t judge people’s demeanor, but rather whether or not they value the truth, however unfiltered it may come. In other words I’d rather listen to a smug truth teller than a humble liar.

    Take care.

  161. MichaelFree
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You said about Jesus:

    “He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”.

    You won’t accept that he did make intercession for the transgressors (he prayed and his prayer was answered, that their sins would be forgiven). You even say that Richard is un-saved. The filth of your venom can’t be washed off fast enough. And you will not number yourself with the transgressors (whom you think are non-Christians), but Jesus did, because he loves the body and the soul and knows that both are sacred temples and that the Creator is not a destroyer of either, neither body nor soul, but rather, the liar is; and the liar is also a murderer because murder is a lie because the murderer says it is alright to murder, and this is a lie.

    Take care Reine.

  162. MichaelFree
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    There is more than one interpretation of the Gospels but there is only one interpretation of the truth.

    I fight back against your BS using Jesus’ words because I know it cuts deep but for all I know your words are the correct interpretation of the Gospels, but your words are anti-life and I don’t have to read a book to know that, I just have to be alive, and present, body and soul, making communion with the truth.

  163. MichaelFree
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I said:

    “The Creator is not a destroyer of either, neither body nor soul, but rather, the liar is”.

    The liar is many times successful on Earth, murdering the body and defiling the soul, but has no part in the afterlife, the Creators exclusive domain, a good place for all souls to smile. The Creator is not a destroyer or a torturer but rather is the Comforter.

    Take care.

  164. MichaelFree
    Posted January 20, 2015 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    You all know Jesus kicked out the “lying” and “thieving” money changers from the temple. His death on the cross teaches us to also kick out the “violater” of body (and soul).

    You see Jesus:

    Helped people in need

    Spoke the truth

    Physically respected other people and their property.

    His followers would of fought back but then the Kingdom was not of this world, but now it is, and all those who follow the truth are obliged to restrain the transgressor, and once the transgression is restrained, to go no further, so as not to become transgressors ourselves.

    The Kingdom is peaceful and a good environment for love to thrive without having to be told to love one another, because it’s the fruit of the Kingdom.

  165. Posted January 20, 2015 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    Michael Free, read what the Lord said in Mathew 10:28 and then write again.

    Your error is that you don’t understand that the God of the Bible is sovereign over body and soul. The God of the holy Bible is sovereign over body and soul, not Satan.

  166. MichaelFree
    Posted January 21, 2015 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    God is sovereign over body and soul because God is righteousness. When a person is at peace they are being righteous. When a person who is at peace is lied to, stolen from, or physically assaulted in any way the Kingdom of God (peace : righteousness) has been breached and the transgressor is known and hopefully restrained and treated comfortably but restrained and afforded a true trial. And this you might not take to heart, it is done the same regardless of gender, religion, atheism, ethnicity, nationality, or sexuality, and when you take each instance of these different peoples’ lifetimes where they were in a state of peace : righteousness and you don’t recognize it as God’s (peace : righteousness) then you are blind. You might look at them as “unfortunate” or whatever and it’s all BS. God takes what is his from everyone (takes all the righteousness, and smiles). We get to make our own choices in life and I say no to the liar, the thief, and the one who initiates assault in any way upon other people, body and soul. If God is righteousness then God is righteous in heaven also where there is only righteousness. The unrighteousness we enter heaven with is cleansed when we enter and everyone goes to heaven but some knew what baptism was and so changed on Earth and so started anew with a clean slate.

    “Hell” from your Matthew quote is not a place. It is a state of genuine regret, of remorse, or a state of doing evil deeds here on Earth including lying. If he calls people who are alive “dead” (let the dead bury their dead) then surely the walking dead are presently in hell. Hell doesn’t have to be torture like Jesus was tortured on the cross, it’s just your interpretation that makes it that way.

    Jesus prayed for everyone and showed us what torture was and to never transgress and I take him at his word, to never transgress, to never torture, body and soul, judge on good vs evil words and deeds. Know God is good (peace : righteousness).

    And I do believe in heaven. Actual heaven. I look forward to smiling there and not being ashamed that there is a place called hell because there is no place called hell nor a being that is pure evil that is called Satan. Therefore I can know God is good and feel comfortable in heaven.

  167. MichaelFree
    Posted January 21, 2015 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Jesus said:

    “And fear not them which kill the body (physical bodily assault) but are not able to kill the soul (can’t make you like them) but rather fear him (bad words and deeds) which is able to destroy both soul (making “you” like them) and body (walking dead) in hell (state of regret, remorse, shame)”.

  168. MichaelFree
    Posted January 21, 2015 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Hell is also the state of living in unrepentant sin.

    Take care.

  169. MichaelFree
    Posted January 21, 2015 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    To clarify that.

    I said:

    “Hell is also the state of living in unrepentant sin” and I meant to say “living with instances of unrepentant sin”.

    Take care.

  170. Posted January 22, 2015 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Michael, your understanding is wrong on this subject. Just as a saved person isn’t in paradise neither is an unsaved person in hell.

  171. MichaelFree
    Posted January 22, 2015 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I know I’m at home.

    Take care Reine.

  172. MichaelFree
    Posted January 22, 2015 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Good.

  173. Posted January 22, 2015 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you quote the Lord but totally misrepresent Him. He teaches that man can’t kill the soul of man! The Him refers to the God of the holy Bible, for our soul belongs to Him. He decides what He does with our soul!

  174. MichaelFree
    Posted January 22, 2015 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    What you don’t understand is that your religious beliefs pretend that the souls of people who are not of your religion go to hell. You pretend that your religion has dominion over our souls and it does not, and I don’t care what your baby killing divisionist god has to say about it in that filthy book.

    As soon as you are led to believe that you don’t own yourself you have become a slave. If you believe that your god has dominion over all people including people who are not of your religion then those beliefs that lie about ownership of the body and soul many times become the doctrine of murderers and torturers and slave holders who say it is alright to kill others who are not of their religion. It happens even today with the christian religion so don’t say this is an artifact of the past. Your religion is antihuman and antitruth, a liar and a murderer, with lots of rotten fruit to show for it.

    My test of the worth of the bible or the gospels is whether or not I would want my eleven year old nephew to ever be exposed to them, and the answer is no, and in fact an emphatic hell no. He will be raised well and not abused instead. He will be raised without the bogeyman just like I was, happy and free.

    Everyday I do what I’ve been telling you. I’m not a servant because a servant is a slave. You see, I love the truth, and so I say and do it freely. I know I’m in the garden but you say I’m not in paradise. I know my words and deeds are true and you call them filthy rags.

    Even the truth can’t reason with religion and the truth is most high. And I’m not the truth but rather a follower of it. Religion can’t hold a candle to the truth.

    Take care.

  175. MichaelFree
    Posted January 23, 2015 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    The bible speaks of “gods” in the plural in many places. As in more than one god.

    That book is not a monotheistic book.

    You see good and evil are attributed to god in the bible instead of just good. There is even an evil god deity called satan.

    The truth follower knows this is not so.

    There is only one true god with only good and true characteristics and one true eternal judgment for human beings who were put into an environment where the individual choice of choosing good or evil words and deeds seems the lesson to be learned. If it is choice of belief system the choice is a false choice because there is no truth to made-up doctrine. This is clear to the true follower of truth.

    It’s a game of quest for power vs quest for truth and I mean this quite literally. The path of truth is the forgotten cornerstone. Christianity forgot it and made it into a being called Jesus rather than acknowledging that his laws are to tell the truth and to not lie, to help people who are in need, and to respect other people and their property in our deeds, to be non-violent.

    Are these the laws of Jesus or are they not the laws of Jesus? Answer this Reine. It’s a yes or no question.

    And he did say that he was going to come back but I’d be ashamed if he were a religionist and chose on religion instead of a humanist who chooses all of humanity. The true-path truly righteous in heaven would rebel at the shame of a two-bit religionist murderer psychopath.

    I never have to fear God Reine.

    The One True God is only love and truth quite literally. What we know as love and truth is God. The Spirit of God. And all actual deities, if there are any, are also judged by love and truth (love and truth are not “beings” at all). The One True God’s words and deeds and judgments are loving, good, and true, only, and does no violence neither is any deceit on his tongue.

  176. MichaelFree
    Posted January 25, 2015 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    I apologize for calling the Bible a filthy book. If you are offended I apologize.

    I learned something that is worth more than any amount of money from the Gospels, the garden, and the well, and I’m thankful for it. I don’t know if I would of found it elsewhere.

    I’ve also been extremely hurt by the Bible, and the pain and the hurt remains.

    Take care.

  177. Gnade
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Michael, you seem to be assailed by alsorts of emotions. One moment you crrectly praise the Son of God, then you claim the Creator couldn’t possibly have decided to take the life of the contemporaries of Noah. He not only did this, but behaved justly in doing it.

    Michael, you are only hurting yourself when you utter nonsense that the Bible is filthy, for it shows that you don’t yet understand that it is man’s thinking that is filthy.

    Can I encourage you this year to study the holy Bible.

    Welcome the LORD to teach you the truth! You also claim you are at home? If that is true you would love the Bible more than any other book, for it is a unique gift from the creator.

    The holy Bible is given by inspiration of God, if man doesn’t highly esteem it it shows that that he doesn’t highly esteem its author!

    Michael, take your hurts to the healer of healers and welcome Him to teach you about His holy Bible and Himself!
    Truly He is love and there is no filth in anything He does or says!

  178. Annie H.
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    ” I’d rather listen to a smug truth teller than a humble liar.”

    There is no such thing as a humble liar. To lie is to exalt yourself above your fellows, and therefore by definition, it is not possible to lie with a humble spirit. All lying is attempt to gain unfair advantage at other’s expense, something which true humility would never countenance.

    There is nothing to admire in smugness, or arrogance, or considering oneself better than others. Smug is indefensible. Don’t bother trying to defend it.

    “Richard is stating he found no intelligence behind the Bible Wheel,”

    That one is just plain wrong. Richard wrote a book of 400 pages describing the intelligence he found in the Biblewheel. Whilst it is true that he has since repudiated the Wheel, he himself makes it plain that he by no means rejects everything he wrote in that book, when he writes:

    “It’s not that everything I wrote was wrong. Not by a long shot.”.

    I am not sure he has described here precisely those parts of the book he considers to still be correct, but even without the details, it is manifestly untrue to suggest that he found no intelligence in the Wheel. He did. He just decided later that it was counterbalanced by, amongst other things, certain moral aspects with which he disagreed.

    The “billion times better” remark does not suggest, to me, an inherently humble attitude, but it is of course impossible to know what goes on in another person’s heart. Only Richard can know how much he values the quality of humility. In any case, we all fall short, and it is something to which we can only aim. To boast of one’s humility is obviously to succumb to its opposite.

    Also try not to call people “ignorant”. You cannot and do not know how much or how little I know, so to suggest otherwise is to call attention to your own lack of knowledge. I have no doubt you know many things. Grant me, and others, the same courtesy.

    My best wishes to all.

  179. Posted January 31, 2015 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    “Richard is stating he found no intelligence behind the Bible Wheel,”

    That one is just plain wrong. Richard wrote a book of 400 pages describing the intelligence he found in the Biblewheel. Whilst it is true that he has since repudiated the Wheel, he himself makes it plain that he by no means rejects everything he wrote in that book, when he writes:

    Hey there Anne,

    I don’t think I ever said those exact words, but they do accurately reflect my judgment. There is no evidence of any intelligence behind the pattern of the Wheel. It’s just a random coincidence that the number of books (66) is divisible by the number of Hebrew letters (22). We see a similar random coincidence with the 72 books of the Roman Catholic Canon which can be displayed in the form of a wheel of 24 spokes corresponding to the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet from Alpha to Omega. I discuss this in my article Battle of the Bible Wheels: Catholic vs. Protestant.

    Your assertion that I did find evidence of design that was “counterbalanced” by other factors like the immorality attributed to God is not correct. After reviewing my evidence as presented in my 412 book, I have concluded that it is the product of cognitive biases like cherry picking, confirmation bias, pareidolia (seeing patterns in random data) and so forth. I have concluded that there is no evidence of design at all. If you disagree, then please explain what evidence you think stands in light of my criticism and I will review it. The moral and intellectual problems with the Bible is another matter altogether. I knew about those problems when I was a believer and “reconciled” them by assuming that God was free to write any kind of book he chose. The rejected the doctrine of inerrancy as unbiblical.

    There is no arrogance of any kind in my assertion that I, or anyone with half a brain, could design a Bible Wheel a billion times better. This is obvious to anyone who has the slightest understanding of what we are talking about. As explained previously, I could have designed it with specially linked verses between every book on every spoke so that the design would be absolute proof with a probability of one chance in a quadrillion of happening by chance. The Wheel based on the existing Bible is nothing like that. There is no statistical evidence of any design at all. Therefore, my assertion that I could make one a “billion” times better was an understatement and therefore “humble.”

    Your obsession with pointing out the lack of “humility” in others reveals the gross arrogance of your own religiously polluted heart. I don’t need to “guess” if you are arrogant – your obsession with accusations of arrogance in others is all the proof anyone needs. The irony is palpable – your write as if you have never heard the Sermon on the Mount! You’ve got a log in your own eye. (Luke 6:41) You condemn yourself when you judge others. (Romans 2:1)

    It is particularly ironic that you complain about others judging you when they respond to your judgment of others.

  180. Posted January 31, 2015 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    The holy Bible is given by inspiration of God, if man doesn’t highly esteem it it shows that that he doesn’t highly esteem its author!

    Which Bible? The Roman Catholic Bible? The Protestant Bible? The Greek Orthodox Bible? Or maybe the Ethiopian Bible with 80 books?

    Who told you that one of those Bibles was the Word of God? Why do you follow a human tradition as if it were the truth of God? What’s the difference between your blind belief and the blind belief of all the other cult members like Scientologists, Mormons, and Muslims?

  181. Posted January 31, 2015 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Richard writes: Who told you the Bible was the Word of God?
    My reply is that God’s Spirit can reveal to man that the holy Bible is the Word of God. Psalm 12:6 teaches that the words of the LORD are flawless! The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. Proverbs 30:5 underlines the point that every word of God is flawless.

    Richard, every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him! When man puts his trust in God and His Word he miraculously discovers that He starts believing what the LORD teaches. Richard, you have two choices: to continue to decide to be a fault finder or volunteer to be taught by the author of life. Trust in Christ, for He can bless you!

  182. Posted January 31, 2015 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Richard writes: Who told you the Bible was the Word of God?
    My reply is that God’s Spirit can reveal to man that the holy Bible is the Word of God.

    OK – and how do you know that it was “God’s Spirit” that revealed it to you? Maybe you are deluded? Other people believe God revealed things to them that contradict your beliefs, so you can’t both be right. How do you discern who is right and who is wrong?

    When man puts his trust in God and His Word he miraculously discovers that He starts believing what the LORD teaches.

    Which Bible is the “Word of God” and how do you know? Do you just “have a feeling” like all the deluded people with beliefs that contradict yours?

    Richard, you have two choices: to continue to decide to be a fault finder or volunteer to be taught by the author of life. Trust in Christ, for He can bless you!

    Been there, done that. I discovered that God is not trustworthy. Is there one demonstrable thing for which God can be trusted? Nope. Nada. Zilch. Parents who trust God for the health of their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence. There is no more delusional statement than “God is trustworthy.” See my article Is God Trustworthy? The Root of Religious Delusion.

  183. MichaelFree
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Annie,

    This is what I said:

    “Your use of “smugness” and “humility” seems to describe a persons demeanor rather than the contrast between someone who is smug before the truth (a negative) vs someone who is humble before the truth (a positive). A persons demeanor can’t hold a candle to the truth which is why I ultimately don’t judge people’s demeanor, but rather whether or not they value the truth, however unfiltered it may come. In other words I’d rather listen to a smug truth teller (smug demeanor) than a humble liar (humble demeanor)”. Surely someone can act humble while at the same time lying. Surely someone can act smug while at the same time telling the truth. This is what I meant. Don’t judge people’s demeanor.

    Reine Gnade,

    The Jesus you praise and the truth that I praise are polar opposites. The Gospels have more than one interpretation.

    I don’t want to debate this here, it is for reference: About 20 years ago, long before I read the Gospels, I came home, I believe in the middle of the day, I was clearheaded and alert and not under the influence of any drugs or alcohol, I came into my kitchen and looked at my curtain which normally had a floral pattern on it with no words whatsoever, and there I saw the word JESUS and it was lit up and glowing. I stared at it for maybe three seconds and immediately thought that if I looked away and then looked back again that it would be gone, so I turned and looked away and then looked back again and it was gone, and I was physically shocked, Over the next several days I looked and looked for it, trying to force the stems of the flowers to say JESUS and all I could do was contort some stems to say Jesus in a forced and contrived manner. What I saw that day was as plain as this type here: JESUS.

    Fast forward twenty years or so to around late 2012 or early 2013 where I was trying to figure out the meaning to the Golden Rule. I figured that everyone in the world owned the Golden Rule because that is how I roll: “do unto other people as you would have done unto yourself” and focused in on the “would have done unto yourself” portion and I realized that everyone in the world owns “as you would have done unto yourself”, and therefore the Golden Rule is “do unto other people as they would have done unto themselves” (which is “do unto other people only what they would agree to”). And then I read the Gospels.

    The search came first, the Gospels came second.

    When I read this it was like a light bulb turned on:

    Matthew 18: 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall AGREE (do unto others only what they would agree to) on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father (TRUTH) which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name (TRUTH), there am I (TRUTH) in the midst of them.

    There is no way that Jesus THE PERSON is in the midst of people who do things together in agreement. Jesus says that he is THE TRUTH and surely THE TRUTH is in the midst of people who do things together (only them affected) in AGREEMENT.

    But you don’t see this in anyone who is not a Christian. Either Jesus is a liar or you are, one or the other, and my interpretation of the Gospels makes you a liar, not Jesus. There is no violence in my interpretation of the Gospels.

    The Jesus I found in the Gospels, which I realize now is merely an interpretation and unreliable (regardless of the miracle that I saw on the curtain), is different than your interpretation.

    Is Jesus a real person? I don’t know.
    Is Jesus the Messiah? I don’t know.
    Is The Truth a real thing? Yes.
    Is The Truth a savior for a person who was a liar and a trespasser in the past? Yes.

    Matthew 7: 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Does the truth teller “believe” in the path of truth, the narrow gate? Yes.
    Is the gate narrow for the truth teller and truth doer (one variation of the truth) and the gate wide for the liar (many variations of lies)? Yes.

    You don’t believe me, what did Jesus give the woman at the well? He got her to speak THE TRUTH about the man she lives with now who is not her husband. He valued her because she spoke THE TRUTH but that book makes her out to be shit for being married five times and living with a man who was not her husband. Jesus said nothing about these, he only praised her for speaking THE TRUTH. She seemed like a strong and happy woman to me. Their transaction is beautiful.

    Can a woman, atheist, gentile, or homosexual follow the path of truth in word and deed their whole life? Yes.

    Now back to the name on the curtain which I saw and the “Christian” religion. Do you think I should be scared and go run and join some “Christian” sect because I saw what I saw on the curtain in particular, or for what Jesus said about him being the only way to heaven in the Gospels? I’ve gone through my fear trip already and learned that love and righteous anger makes it go away. I’m not a “Christian”; my conscience, which I know is good and true, wouldn’t allow it.

    Like my name sake who contended over the body of Moses with Satan I feel like I’ve been contending with Satan over the body of Jesus. You see somehow you’ve imagined that it isn’t satanic to tortuously burn non-Christians for eternity. That led to millions being actually burned on Earth. Your religion crosses over into the affairs of human beings and tells many that they can be inhuman to other people who are not of your religion. The TRUTH doesn’t do this. The TRUTH is a good tree with good fruit.

    And I hope that the Most High does come, but only if he honors the TRUTH, and that he brings not only his sickle but also his axe.

    You see, Jesus said:

    Matthew 22: 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    My neighbors are literally men and women, people of all religions, people who are atheists, people of all races and nationalities, and heterosexuals and homosexuals. I love them all equally.

    Jesus said:

    John 15:13 “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”.

    My friends are: men and women, people of all religions, people who are atheists, people of all races and nationalities, and heterosexuals and homosexuals. I lay down my life for them which is why I cannot be a “Christian”.

    Now I know what this means: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God (love and truth, goodness and peace, justice and mercy) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”.

    And I follow both commandments every day to the best of my ability but you do not. You give non-Christians lip-service of “love” but when it comes down to it you will not lay down your life for them nor will you acknowledge the truth.

    You said:

    “Michael, take your hurts to the healer of healers and welcome Him to teach you about His holy Bible and Himself!”

    I have already and now I wait for vindication.

  184. MichaelFree
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Previously I said here that I wasn’t going to say the supernatural thing that I saw, and now I have, and for that I apologize.

    Take care.

  185. MichaelFree
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Matthew 22: 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is LIKE UNTO IT, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    The second is LIKE UNTO the first. Find the second know the first.

  186. MichaelFree
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    If you truly believed:

    Hillel the Elder (a highly esteemed Jewish contemporary of Jesus): “”That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”

    Slavery is hateful to me. The Egyptians of that time should not of kept the Jews as slaves, by the LAW OF TRUTH.

    *
    Jesus Christ: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets”.

    People should not murder me. The Jews of that time should not of murdered Jesus, by the LAW OF TRUTH.

    *
    Muhammad: ““As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don’t do to them”.

    People should not murder me or kick me off my property that my family has lived on for generations. My family is from northern Europe, I don’t go there trying to steal land that my family had hundreds of years ago, because it’s not my land. The crusades should not of happened. Western imperialism and the propping up of murderous and lying and stealing dictators for the love of mammon should not of happened and should not happen today, by the LAW OF TRUTH.

    and lastly…

    Don’t threaten me with eternal torture for not believing in your religion as I don’t threaten you with eternal torture for you believing in your religion or for you not believing in the truth. There is violence in your religion but there is no violence in the truth. There is proportional self-defense in the truth but self-defense is not a sin. Jesus said to turn the other cheek to have that one hit also, but he also defended the temple and physically kicked the mammon out. As for me, the temple is the whole Earth, all of creation, and all people. Everyone on Earth is my neighbor and I need not ask “who is my neighbor?”, because I already know.

  187. MichaelFree
    Posted January 31, 2015 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    I said:

    “The Egyptians of that time should not of kept the Jews as slaves, by the LAW OF TRUTH”.

    It should say that the Egyptians in Moses’ time should not of kept the Jews as slaves and the Romans at the time of Hillel and Jesus should not of oppressed and defiled the Jews.

    Take care.

  188. MichaelFree
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I said:

    “Either Jesus is a liar or you are, one or the other, and my interpretation of the Gospels makes you a liar, not Jesus”.

    I deeply apologize for what I said here.

    Interpretations of scripture are neither true nor false because there are many legitimate interpretations. Yours is a legitimate interpretation and because of this I cannot call you a liar in regard to what is written in scripture.

    The Gospels are unclear. One minute Jesus talks about himself as a person and another minute talks about himself as “the truth” (not a person).

    I believe the “person” interpretations creates a religion that is divisive and thus inhumane. I believe the “truth” interpretations creates oneness.

    For instance Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me”. So with DIVISION no one comes to the Father but by Jesus. But with ONENESS it becomes “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by the way, the truth, and the life”.

    I believe the Gospels, when read alone, without being taught by anyone else beforehand, can draw out your “heart”, asking the reader “how do you hear?” To me it is unfortunate that many churches teach division amongst religions and other factors that can be tested in the real world and clearly shown to be faulty indicators of the goodness in individuals or whether or not they “love one another (other human beings)”. A Muslim can spend their every waking hour giving food to the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, taking strangers in, clothing the naked, and visiting them who are sick and them who are in prison, and to the vast majority of “Christianity” they are shit and going to hell but a “Christian” who helps no one ever gets to go to heaven. Let that sink in and remember the Sheep and the Goats.

    That “division” word might make you think of what Jesus said about him not coming here to bring peace, but rather division:

    Luke 12: 51Suppose ye that I am come to give PEACE ON EARTH? I tell you, Nay; but rather division”.

    The division way says believe in Christianity or be divided and go to hell.

    The oneness way understands that people are people and many will hear the truth and follow it and many will hear the truth and still not follow it, dividing the truth from the lie, but the truth is love and compassion so even those who don’t follow the truth are loved, but their misdeeds are restrained, not punished, so as not to become the liar (transgressor) ourselves, and thus remaining in oneness.

    From Wikipedia: “The Jewish messiah is thought to be a leader anointed by God, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel and herald the Messianic Age of GLOBAL PEACE also known as the World to Come”. The Messiah comes to bring PEACE ON EARTH.

    Blind acceptance of religious doctrine without testing its peacefulness in the world or worse yet, praising its un-peacefulness and calling it peaceful, is just shameful, and a sad teaching.

  189. Annie H.
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    “Your assertion that I did find evidence of design that was “counterbalanced” by other factors like the immorality attributed to God is not correct.”

    Fine, then could you please explain exactly what you were referring to when you said

    “It’s not that everything I wrote was wrong. Not by a long shot.”.

    What, precisely, was “not wrong”, in your book? It sounds like there is a lot of it, as you clarify “not by a long shot”. So if this material that was “not wrong” was not “evidence for design in the Bible Wheel itself”, what then is the content in your book that you are referring to when you say it was not wrong?

    Could you please provide detailed specifics, as in chapters, pages, paragraphs? Thank you.

    “the gross arrogance of your own religiously polluted heart. I don’t need to “guess” if you are arrogant – your obsession with accusations of arrogance in others is all the proof anyone needs. The irony is palpable – your write as if you have never heard the Sermon on the Mount! You’ve got a log in your own eye. (Luke 6:41) You condemn yourself when you judge others. (Romans 2:1)”

    Thank you for pointing this out. I’m sure you are correct.

    In any case, in my smug view, you could have written a billion times better Bible Wheel book if you had shown a little more humility.

    Of course, now that you’re an atheist, none of that matters. As far as I can see (hello Richard Dawkins), arrogance is considered a virtue in such circles.

  190. Annie H.
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    “In other words I’d rather listen to a smug truth teller (smug demeanor) than a humble liar (humble demeanor)”. Surely someone can act humble while at the same time lying. Surely someone can act smug while at the same time telling the truth. This is what I meant. Don’t judge people’s demeanor.”

    Thanks for clarifying what you meant, though it all seems rather tangled. Why not just agree that humility is a quality worth aiming for? In my view, humility always improves a person. Having said that, I am not claiming that I have made any more progress towards that goal than anyone else, as I acknowledge. Then again, I wasn’t requesting the personality appraisal; our host was.

    Richard asked what he could have done better. I offered a suggestion. It seems odd to be told when I respond that I am being judgmental. This same charge could be levelled at any attempt to answer the question Richard posed. So I am left to conclude that it was really a trick question, and that there is no answer which would be acceptable, or taken on board for consideration. So not sure now why he bothered asking it in the first place. Or more to the point, why I bothered answering.

  191. Posted February 1, 2015 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    “It’s not that everything I wrote was wrong. Not by a long shot.”.

    What, precisely, was “not wrong”, in your book? It sounds like there is a lot of it, as you clarify “not by a long shot”. So if this material that was “not wrong” was not “evidence for design in the Bible Wheel itself”, what then is the content in your book that you are referring to when you say it was not wrong?

    Could you please provide detailed specifics, as in chapters, pages, paragraphs? Thank you.

    I was referring to all the facts stated in the book. They remain true. E.g. the Protestant Bible has 66 books, there are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet, the letters have various meanings associated with them, etc., etc., etc. The parts of the book that are questionable are the implications I drew from those facts. E.g. the fact that the 66 books can be displayed on a wheel of 22 spokes implies that it was deliberately designed that way by God to symbolize the sealing of his word from aleph to tav. The biggest error was my assertion that KeyLinks (unique sets of words found only on a given spoke) were evidence of design. That claim fails because the KeyLinks happen with a frequency we would expect from random chance. I explained this in detail in my article Debunking Myself: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. This is a huge error because KeyLinks were my primary evidence of design and such claims are found throughout the book.

  192. Posted February 1, 2015 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Richard asked what he could have done better. I offered a suggestion. It seems odd to be told when I respond that I am being judgmental. This same charge could be levelled at any attempt to answer the question Richard posed. So I am left to conclude that it was really a trick question, and that there is no answer which would be acceptable, or taken on board for consideration. So not sure now why he bothered asking it in the first place. Or more to the point, why I bothered answering.

    The problem is that you jumped into a conversation without any understanding of what had been said. Reine Gnade had contradicted himself, first saying that I was never a Christian because real Christians cannot lose the faith, and then saying that I should return to the faith I once had. I explained the contradiction and then explained that I had already done everything that he said I should, namely, put my faith in Christ. That’s why I asked “What exactly should I do that I did not do when I described myself as a “blood-bought born-again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Your response “Be Humble” is perhaps the most perfect example of how religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. You dismissed my entire Christian life as a farce. You have no justification for such a judgment. You do not know me. You had absolutely no justification to doubt that I groveled before God like any sincere believer. I devoted my life to Christ. I spent years blaming and hating myself just like the Good Book teaches. There is simply no excuse for you to project your arrogance upon me. You came here without even saying hello, exalting yourself above the stars of heaven, sitting upon the throne of God and declaring your judgment upon me. There could be no greater irony or hypocrisy: From your seat of Satanic Pride you condemned me as failing to be humble! And so you exemplify how religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers.

  193. Annie H.
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Gosh, that answer makes me sad. I offered two words, be humble, and you dump a bucket on my head. I certainly was not dismissing your entire christian life as a farce. For goodness sakes. I found your christian life to be extraordinarily inspiring, and your book to be one of the most valuable books on christianity ever written. You seem to have such a thin skin, and to react with such venom to the most mild critique. It hardly seems like you have found peace in life. I’m sorry I opened my mouth. Truly sorry. I certainly won’t be returning. There is something very wrong here.

  194. Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Richard asked what he could have done better. I offered a suggestion. It seems odd to be told when I respond that I am being judgmental. This same charge could be levelled at any attempt to answer the question Richard posed. So I am left to conclude that it was really a trick question, and that there is no answer which would be acceptable, or taken on board for consideration. So not sure now why he bothered asking it in the first place. Or more to the point, why I bothered answering.

    It was not a “trick” question, but you are correct that it has no acceptable answer. That was my point. It was a rhetorical question with the obvious answer of “Nothing.” It was designed to help Reine realize the absurdity of his request that I “return” to the faith that I had already fully submitted to and found false. Your answer that I should “be humble” was arrogant and absurd. I spent years being “humble” before God, grovelling and blaming myself for all my sins. Your judgment against me was not justified, not biblical, not true, and hypocritical. You failed in every way conceivable.

  195. Annie H.
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    A humble man would have shrugged it off as no big deal. Thank you for demonstrating better than I ever could exactly what I was getting at. What you consider a failure, I count as a bulls-eye.

  196. Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    “the gross arrogance of your own religiously polluted heart. I don’t need to “guess” if you are arrogant – your obsession with accusations of arrogance in others is all the proof anyone needs. The irony is palpable – your write as if you have never heard the Sermon on the Mount! You’ve got a log in your own eye. (Luke 6:41) You condemn yourself when you judge others. (Romans 2:1)”

    Thank you for pointing this out. I’m sure you are correct.

    Your glib admission is typical of brainwashed believers caught in the cult of Christianity. You seem to think that you can actually be “humble” by merely saying the right words. Unfortunately, you exposed your hypocrisy by hurling more accusations of my “arrogance” immediately after “admitting” your own. I sense no sincerity in your words because you continued your attack and amplified your error by lumping me in with other atheists and asserting that we all lack the “virtue” of humility, as if that were common in your crowd.

    Your words are vain. Your “faith” is nothing but empty and meaningless repetition of what you have been told to say. Your religion is vacuous. You think you are “saved” by repeating a vain formula so that God can “declare” that you are “righteous” which also is a empty because it directly contradicts the meaning of the word. And on and on it goes. Vanity of vanities!

    In any case, in my smug view, you could have written a billion times better Bible Wheel book if you had shown a little more humility.

    Again, you reveal your “admission” of your arrogance to be pure vanity. You mock your own word!

    Of course, now that you’re an atheist, none of that matters. As far as I can see (hello Richard Dawkins), arrogance is considered a virtue in such circles.

    Perfect! After admitting that you are arrogant, judgmental, and in direct violation of the Biblical teachings, you double down on your error. Thanks! That’s exactly what I would expect from any “true believer” in a religion based on empty words.

  197. Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    A humble man would have shrugged it off as no big deal. Thank you for demonstrating better than I ever could exactly what I was getting at. What you consider a failure, I count as a bulls-eye.

    A humble woman would not have entered this conversation by commanding someone to “Be humble.”

    Your answer is exactly what I would expect from an arrogant hypocritical Christian with no self-awareness.

    When will you learn? You cannot attack another person as “arrogant” without exposing yourself as such.

  198. Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Gosh, that answer makes me sad. I offered two words, be humble, and you dump a bucket on my head. I certainly was not dismissing your entire christian life as a farce. For goodness sakes.

    OK – so now the accuser wants to play the victim? You have learned your religion well.

    If you didn’t want a bucket of reality dumped on your head, you should not have filled it with the water of your hypocrisy. You glibly admitted your error and then immediately repeated it, and accused me again of being arrogant. So now you are the victim? Give me a break!

    I found your christian life to be extraordinarily inspiring, and your book to be one of the most valuable books on christianity ever written. You seem to have such a thin skin, and to react with such venom to the most mild critique. It hardly seems like you have found peace in life.

    If anyone has a thin skin, it is you. Think about it. You are the one who entered the conversation with stereotypical religious hypocrisy about “humility” without realizing the arrogance of your own words. And worse, you continued in your hypocrisy even after I showed you the Biblical teachings and you supposedly admitted your error. And now that you realize you cannot win by attacking my “humility” you play the victim card, as if I were abusing you by exposing your duplicity. You are one piece of work. Your religion has really twisted your brain.

    It hardly seems like you have found peace in life.

    Typical Christian hypocrite. You attack my entire life as “unhappy” because I did not accept your hypocritical and unjustified judgment against my character. I can assure you, my happiness has expanded a thousandfold since leaving the bondage of your religious cult.

    I’m sorry I opened my mouth. Truly sorry. I certainly won’t be returning. There is something very wrong here.

    You are right, there is something wrong “here” but only when you say it. The “here” refers to your own mind filled with hypocrisy, arrogance, and vain religious dogmas. That’s where the problem lies.

    I understand why you must flee and never return. The light is a little bright around here for someone so used to the darkness of dogmatic religion.

  199. Annie H.
    Posted February 1, 2015 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    :-) :-) :-)

    Thank you for taking the time to point out my errors. I am having your posts worked up into a Sampler for my wall by the lovely old ladies down at the church hall.

    Your website is great, one of the best. Your book is more excellent than you yourself will ever now know. I feel sure that if you met me in person, and allowed me to buy you a drink, we would get on famously. I like you! You’re a good man, and your struggle with the Big Questions of Life is inspirational.

    Peace to you! Have a great day! And thanks again for the valuable insights into my personality. I will give your comments long and serious consideration, and continue to work on my approach to life, which is, of course, a very long way from perfect.

    Funny thing is, I’m not even a christian, but your Bible Wheel book and concept has brought me closer to the possibility of considering becoming one than just about anything else.

    Let me know if I can ever buy you that drink. I’d enjoy it very much.

    All the best to you and your wife, and I hope you continue to document your fascinating journey here as you have in the past. I will continue to read with much interest your work.

  200. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    Sometimes I feel like I’m trespassing against Christianity or the Hebrew Scriptures because I say my interpretation of the Gospels and I also say how in the Hebrew Scriptures I just can’t get passed the physical bodily and property violations attributed to God (I’ll take Hillel the Elders word for his thought though in regards to the book as a whole, which is the only way any book can be evaluated).

    Then I remember this is a public place with a moderator that hasn’t kicked me out yet so I’m not trespassing.

    Also I remember that I don’t go around putting a place called hell on anyone who is not like me.

    The false division across groups of people and the preaching of a “place” called hell where God eternally tortures people are deal breakers with the Most High for me as it becomes too “weird” for me. A back turned toward or a head put down in shame. I can’t fathom people being born for any reason other than to enjoy life and to to be good to one another and the Earth. I just can’t believe that people are born to burn. It just is not righteous so righteousness (The Truth, not a “being”) itself is my King. Bread and wine. Body and Truth. Deed and word. In that order. But not one without the other because The Truth is Most High. Yep, Herod can’t cut off John’s head, who he even liked, all because he told some little brat he’d give her anything she wanted. Herod should’ve told her he was generalizing because he thought the little brat would want something good and not something evil. Then tell her because he’s a human being he will be more explicit next time. While Peter made a highly specific, no questions about it, vow, that he would do something, and he did not The name of Jesus when he came walking on the shore and Peter got dressed was “The Truth” (True Words). When Yahweh came walking in the Garden and Adam and Eve got dressed Yahweh’s name was “The Truth” (True Deeds). True words and True deeds.

    I think of the false division across religions as a salesman who wants to corner the market by only selling their product and tells his customers fearful things to keep them from changing vendors. The salesman of course many times transacts in money, territory, or control over large groups of people.

    So I just remember that if I meet deity then I’ll attribute words and deeds to deity, but until then, I can only see the truth, with all due respect to any actual deity.

    Take care.

  201. Gnade
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Michael, you have to delve deeper to bow down before God.

  202. Gnade
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    The God of the holy Bible calls man to an intimate relationship.

    What the Lord desires is that we willingly return His love for us?
    Man can’t trust and obey the Lord God without a willingness to do this. The Lord must first bless us with a willingness to listen to His teaching voice.

    When we grow more willing to give our blessing to His name He plants a desire in our inner being to acknowledge Him for who He is and to acknowledge that we are sinners in need of salvation.

  203. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You have to delve deeper to bow down before the truth and then you will know God.

    You have to ask yourself why you bow before a God that condemns people to an eternity of painful torture.

    What Spirit is torture done in?

    What Spirit is your God?

  204. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    If you answered my question truthfully you would say that torture is bad spirit but that your God is good spirit.

    There is a disconnect to have both bad and good spirit attributed to the Most High. There is also a disconnect in attributing things that are repugnant to a God you never met in person. Your true path is to find righteousness first and then God second and then with that heart you will know why God was number one all along.

    It was a human being’s hand that handed you that book.

    Christians are not to condemn the Jews. The Jews will not be slandered by idol worshipping pagans who make the Jewish Messiah a pagan Messiah and make the Jewish holidays pagan ones and then blame the Jews for killing their own Messiah while believing that Jews burn in hell.

    You all messed up. You should repent.

    Don’t ever tell me to bow before your God.

  205. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Of course not all of Christianity have idol worshipping Pagan beliefs and practices and even them that do are surely Christian and not Pagan but the point has been made: your beliefs are made up doctrine, your condemnation list of people unfit for heaven is inaccurate, and don’t use the Jewish Bible against the Jews, it boils the blood. There is a kinder interpretation to the Gospels than the crap you say to bow down to.

  206. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Christians many times worship with idols and have actual pagan holidays.

    Your enticement for Jews to become Christians may involve idol worship and observance of pagan holidays and also condemnation of everyone they know that is Jewish. And I imagine the enticements are quite ineffective.

    Righteous Jews will tell you that Jesus did not do anything wrong that warranted what happened to him in the Gospel story. Jesus on the cross said this was enough.

  207. MichaelFree
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Jews, just like everyone else, can follow Jesus’ word to love one another. And just like everyone else, Jews can help people in need as well as the next person.

    I’m going to go and mind my own business now.

    Take care.

  208. Posted February 2, 2015 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    The God of the holy Bible calls man to an intimate relationship.

    If God wants a “relationship” then why does he act as if he doesn’t exist? I was a devout Christian for many years until I could no longer deny that God was a figment of my imagination. After years of prayer, I finally found the integrity to admit that I was the only one talking. There is no God who wants any kind of relationship with anyone. If he exists, he has chosen to remain absolutely hidden even from those who seek him most diligently. Only the deluded believe in him.

  209. Gnade
    Posted February 2, 2015 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you used to write with tremendous coherence and veracity about the God of the holy Bible.

    However, writing correctly for a paragraph or two doesn’t mean that the person concerned is saved, for the LORD tests us to see if we will love Him above all the other things that compete for our attention.

    A relevant example is the rich young ruler. He left Jesus’ presence because he valued what he had above the Son of God.

    Does the LORD hide from man? This is a challenging question. In order to answer it fully we need to understand what the Lord blesses and what He curses.

    Our Lord teaches: blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. If we want the God of the holy Bible to reveal Himself to us we should desire to speak and act purely, for He is pure.

  210. MichaelFree
    Posted February 3, 2015 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    My father died in 1984 when he was 52 and I was 12. He was a good father to us. He was non-religious.

    Tell me where is my father today according to your religion?

    “If we want the God of the holy Bible to reveal Himself to us we should desire to speak and act purely, for He is pure”.

  211. Posted February 3, 2015 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Richard, you used to write with tremendous coherence and veracity about the God of the holy Bible.

    However, writing correctly for a paragraph or two doesn’t mean that the person concerned is saved, for the LORD tests us to see if we will love Him above all the other things that compete for our attention.

    Actually, there is no way for anyone to know if a person is saved. When you claim to be saved, is there any reason I should think you are any different than when I claimed to be saved? You could be deluded like I was, and lose your faith tomorrow. How would you know? Is it not arrogant for you declare that your heart is more pure than mine on these matters?

    A relevant example is the rich young ruler. He left Jesus’ presence because he valued what he had above the Son of God.

    That’s not relevant at all. I did not leave the faith because of possessions I valued. I left the faith because my integrity demanded it.

    Does the LORD hide from man? This is a challenging question. In order to answer it fully we need to understand what the Lord blesses and what He curses.

    Our Lord teaches: blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. If we want the God of the holy Bible to reveal Himself to us we should desire to speak and act purely, for He is pure.

    And the Bible also says that no one has a pure heart! All are sinners. None seek after God. This is a perfect example of the incoherence of the Bible. If it is true, it is false. Therefore it is false.

  212. Gnade
    Posted February 4, 2015 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you write that the example of the rich young ruler isn’t relevant to you. My reply is that the LORD never does anything that lacks relevancy.

    Those words in the Bible are relevant to both Christian and non Christian, for it’s not just a story about man being unwilling to “leave behind His material riches”.

    Richard, what do you consider are your riches? You make reference of your integrity whilst totally failing to grasp that the very LORD you unjustly claim to reject is righteous.

    That is your error. You have too high an opinion of yourself with the result that much of what you write is boastful.

  213. MichaelFree
    Posted February 4, 2015 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    The truth can seem boastful to those who can’t hear it and to those who can’t see it although it’s right before all of our faces.

    Want to see what it looks like to burn someone alive? The truth of what it really looks like? You know the place that you probably think my dad is at?

    Here’s a link to the raw video of the Jordanian pilot being burned alive. You will have to connect the parts to make the full URL because I’m not sure if Richard appreciates a link to it on his blog. It is graphic. It is the same thing that has happened to millions throughout history because of religious and other fanatics being unenlightened.

    http: //video.foxnews. com /v/4030583977001/ warning-extremely-graphic-video-isis-burns-hostage-alive/?#sp=show-clips

    The truth itself is enlightenment and I care not whose mouth it comes from or whether or not they have a pleasant or unpleasant demeanor because with the truth it’s all the same.

  214. MichaelFree
    Posted February 4, 2015 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I said:

    “You know the place that you probably think my dad is at?”

    It should read:

    “You know the fictional place that you probably think my dad is at?”

    Got to stay on point.

  215. Posted February 4, 2015 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Richard, what do you consider are your riches? You make reference of your integrity whilst totally failing to grasp that the very LORD you unjustly claim to reject is righteous.

    That is your error. You have too high an opinion of yourself with the result that much of what you write is boastful.

    Who is boastful if not the Christian who claims to know the absolute Truth of God Almighty? And then uses it to condemn others?

  216. MichaelFree
    Posted February 4, 2015 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said this regarding the duplicity of the Bible:

    “If it is true, it is false. Therefore it is false”.

    I don’t think a better sentence could be constructed that accurately describes the duplicitous words in the Bible. .

    You said:

    “Who is boastful if not the Christian who claims to know the absolute Truth of God Almighty? And then uses it to condemn others?”

    Humble pie for everyone who reads that. Well said.

    Unjust and unwarranted condemnation of others is my whole problem with religions that believe in a place called hell for people who aren’t like them, which of course, many times, then transfers that mentality into the real world to unjustly persecute people who are not like them.

    Personally I believe in heaven for all people when we die–I know it’s only a belief though.

    Obviously I don’t believe in a place called hell where souls are eternally tormented–I know it’s only a belief though.

    As far as me seeing the name on the curtain that I talked about, I’m only ~95% sure that even happened, leaving ~5% for what could of been a hallucination.

    As far as me believing in a true path in our words and in our deeds here on Earth and respecting each and every individual, this I can prove and I don’t need to make stuff up. I see it, live it, and learn from it everyday. I’m not the smartest person in the room, not by a long shot. I could be missing something here or there but I’ve been doing what I’ve been telling you for a long time now and I have yet to find anything to change from what my current understanding is, but I keep looking.

  217. Posted February 7, 2015 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    There is nothing duplicitious about the Bible, but look at man’s speech and deeds and you find that he needs the LORD teach him! Unsaved man has already gone astray. He is spiritually dead and needs the God of the Bible as his teacher.

    He needs to stop all his “been there, done that” talk and humble himself and seek the LORD’S guidance. Start trusting the good, righteous loving Shepherd King and look to Him as your teacher and you will soon know you have made the right decision.

  218. Posted February 7, 2015 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    He needs to stop all his “been there, done that” talk and humble himself and seek the LORD’S guidance. Start trusting the good, righteous loving Shepherd King and look to Him as your teacher and you will soon know you have made the right decision.

    But I have been there and done that. I discovered there is no “Lord” and he most certainly does not give any “guidence.” Your are promoting the cult mindset of BLIND BELIEF. Your religion is no different than any other delusional cult like Scientology, Islam, Mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, etc. You have chosen the path of darkness, ignorance, and arrogance. You believe that your unfounded dogmas are true and anyone who disagrees is “spiritually dead”. That is a cult, pure and simple.

  219. Posted February 7, 2015 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said this regarding the duplicity of the Bible:

    “If it is true, it is false. Therefore it is false”.

    I don’t think a better sentence could be constructed that accurately describes the duplicitous words in the Bible. .

    Yep. I think the proof is pretty obvious and well supported by logic and facts. Reine’s response is to merely deny reality and say “The Bible is not duplicitous, you are!” It’s like having a conversation with a petulant child. He is not even trying to engage the evidence.

    You said:

    “Who is boastful if not the Christian who claims to know the absolute Truth of God Almighty? And then uses it to condemn others?”

    Humble pie for everyone who reads that. Well said.

    Unfortunately, the irony is lost on those who most need to understand it. Believers are fixated on matters of “pride” because that is the key of the process of brainwashing. They must be “humbled” to believe they are worthless dirt and taught to SUBMIT (like Islam) to the dogmas of the cult. The worst crime is for anyone to stand up with authentic integrity, dignity, and self-respect for that is proof positive that they brainwashing didn’t “take.” That’s why atheists are hated and feared so deeply by believers. Our mere presence is a threat to their cult brainwashing. Many people begin to wake up the moment the see a free person refusing to submit.

    Unjust and unwarranted condemnation of others is my whole problem with religions that believe in a place called hell for people who aren’t like them, which of course, many times, then transfers that mentality into the real world to unjustly persecute people who are not like them.

    Well stated! I couldn’t agree more.

    Personally I believe in heaven for all people when we die–I know it’s only a belief though.

    The idea of an afterlife makes no sense to me. How am I supposed to see without eyes and hear without ears? How are the physical photons and physical sound waves supposed to interact with my non-physical soul? Neuroscience shows that our mental experiences are fundamentally based on processes in the brain. How are we supposed to think without a brain? And what are we going to do forever?

    As far as me believing in a true path in our words and in our deeds here on Earth and respecting each and every individual, this I can prove and I don’t need to make stuff up. I see it, live it, and learn from it everyday. I’m not the smartest person in the room, not by a long shot. I could be missing something here or there but I’ve been doing what I’ve been telling you for a long time now and I have yet to find anything to change from what my current understanding is, but I keep looking.

    Yep. Our behavior in the real world with real people is what really matters. Truth is not limited to those with greatest intelligence. On the contrary, intelligence can be a hinderance to basic human values because smart people are able to defend their delusions better than most. And since they can’t find anyone to effectively refute them, they become convinced that they are right. This is what happened to me. I went on for years challenging people everywhere and anywhere to prove me wrong and all I met were fools and knaves who merely insulted and mocked me, but could not form rational arguments to show my error. So I had to do it myself. Of course, that’s the only way anyone ever frees themselves from delusion. All the outsider can do is try to help by pointing out errors in logic, fact, and common sense.

  220. MichaelFree
    Posted February 7, 2015 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Peace between people is the highest ideal. Conflict between people is the problem.

    Peace brings a smile and happiness. Conflict does the opposite.

    Sometimes with conflict the victor smiles and is happy for a awhile, but then that smile and happiness is taken away and that former victor becomes the newly oppressed and the formerly oppressed becomes the new victor and the new oppressor. The cycle of conflict goes on and on and many human beings with our “me me me” mind are all to happy to play along.

    Conflict now has the ability to kill most living creatures on the planet including all human beings.

    The Bible is about one part of humanity being victor over the other parts of humanity who are the oppressed. In it the Jewish man is first set above women, people of other religions, people who are atheists, people of other ethnicities, people of other nations, and people who are homosexuals. Then the Christian man rolls around and does the EXACT SAME thing (continuation of the curse) except now the Christian is the new victor and everyone else is the new oppressed. Then the Muslim man rolls around and does the same EXACT SAME thing (continuation of the curse) except now the Muslim is the new victor and everyone else is the new oppressed.

    That book puts the “special man that is closer to God” conflict curse that is enforced with fear on everyone who buys its lie, and real peace and real humanity, and thus real truth, is no where to be found.

    The Gospels do the same thing. At first I was deluded and now I am not. You helped me with this Richard and I thank you. The duplicitous Jesus, if he (the words in the Gospels) is true, he is false, therefore he is false. I don’t think that a supreme being (which no one alive has ever witnessed its person) would taunt human beings with riddles that are understood by the supreme deity to be taken the wrong way by the majority of human beings who read them and whom then says that he will disown some of them when he returns (“I never knew you”).

    Look at the fruit of Jesus (the words in the Gospels). We can argue kill counts across different religions all day and try to figure out which one is worse but in truth if your religion has a murder count your religion is worthless because it can be interpreted and used however the reader wants (do what thou wilt, the opposite of the Golden Rule). You quoted a slave trader who said that if the Bible is true and holy then slave trading is approved by God and no where does Jesus plainly rebuke slavery. Case closed.

    That book is an abomination, plain and simple. It leaves the reader desolate of the truth, desolate of treating other human beings with true equality and decency, and desolate of learning. It even mocks human beings for changing their minds over time, while this is our very essence! We learn over time and this is glorious and then it mocks us. If you buy the BS in the bible you set yourself back in time and stop learning.

    That book teaches hypocrisy and glorifies it. That book teaches that good is bad and bad is good and then glorifies it.

    And we say all these things and they call you and me and people like us “unsaved”. We saved ourselves from hypocrisy and the biggest lie every devised and they call us unsaved. They are the epitome of what it means to be a hypocrite–the absolute epitome of hypocrisy and then they have the gall to speak out against hypocrisy. And it’s not like you and me are trying to make excuses to not be religious in order to do evil things in life, but rather the absolute opposite, for remember, you and me have already testified to the Golden Rule and being good to people being supreme.

    I used to think I lived in a world where the people in power were smart and knew a lot more than me. I now know they are power hungry and truth deprived.

    Gnade said:

    “There is nothing duplicitious about the Bible, but look at man’s speech and deeds and you find that he needs the LORD teach him! Unsaved man has already gone astray. He is spiritually dead and needs the God of the Bible as his teacher”.

    This is quackery. Jesus said to love one another and then said that no one can be his disciple unless he hates everyone. That’s duplicity. I looked at Jesus’ speech (the words in the Gospels) and was taught duplicity. It was the truth that taught me what duplicity is, not a book. I merely had to of been born and to have been taught a language to understand what duplicity is. Gnades “unsaved man” is shorthand for Gnade believing in torture and punishment as opposed to restraint and rehabilitation. To Gnade God takes an eye for eye and makes the world go blind. Gnade says that “unsaved man” is spiritually dead and I tell Gnade now that believing that will transfer to the real world and everyone that he sees that is not a Christian is probably looked upon by him with death instead of life. His religion is anti-life, sad, and disgusting.

    I look upon Christians and everyone else in life as human beings and try to treat everyone with the same amount of dignity, regardless of what they look like, what their demeanor is like, what their personal habits are, what their intelligence level is, their gender, religion, atheism, ethnicity, nationality, or sexuality. But as soon as anyone starts preaching the lie out comes the truth.

  221. MichaelFree
    Posted February 7, 2015 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I hope I always remember though that I can go toe to toe with any divisive “Christian” in regards to the meaning of Jesus’ words in the Gospels. I can make the words righteous and “oneness” while they can make them divisive and unrighteous. I can never win but neither can they. It is a tie and that is a shame. It’s all in the interpretation which makes any interpretation a lie including mine. And I have learned a lot about truth from the Gospels, and then it turns and punches me in the face.

    If you wanted your children to do something a certain way would you tell them plainly or would you speak in riddles and hope that they figure it out and come to the correct conclusion? Human beings know without a doubt to speak plainly to children but according to that book God has a hard time speaking plainly, so who is more intelligent, human beings, or the God of the bible?

    That book is put into our human hands by humans and to assume that “God” wrote it is insanity.

    I know that’s blasphemy to religious people and I’d apologize but my words are true.

    To put onto an invisible supreme being our human sins such as lying, stealing, assaulting other people, robbing, raping, murdering, torturing, and holding slaves, is despicable and delusional. To say that our good deeds are filthy rags is just another lie Gnade has parroted from that filthy book. I don’t do good deeds to then be told that they are filthy rags, I do them to be clean and free and to be at peace.

  222. MichaelFree
    Posted February 7, 2015 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    I also said this comment in this same thread:

    “I apologize for calling the Bible a filthy book. If you are offended I apologize.

    I learned something that is worth more than any amount of money from the Gospels, the garden, and the well, and I’m thankful for it. I don’t know if I would of found it elsewhere.

    I’ve also been extremely hurt by the Bible, and the pain and the hurt remains”.

    I rescind what I wrote here. I apologize for saying the comment. Human beings learn over time and I will not be ashamed.

    I don’t apologize for saying that the bible is filthy. That book is filthy. If you are offended that is too bad. I will always view it, as a whole, as a filthy book. I can’t cherry pick certain parts of it that I can interpret as righteous and then say that the whole isn’t filthy, because it is.

    I realize I learned something that is worth more than any amount of money from the truth and that the Gospels, the garden story, and the well story, are just MY INTERPRETATIONS of the stories, they came from ME, not from the book. You see I’m a simple man. Because of confirmation bias in our culture I supposed that Jesus was righteous so when I read the Gospels I made the words righteous. In the Garden of Eden story my simple mind viewed the trespass against Gods tree as a simple trespass against personal property, a theft, ie DON’T STEAL, not some elaborate story about knowledge being held back from man. I view Gods tree of knowledge as any other tree in the Garden. It was just the one that God said was his and his alone, his property. As far as the Samaritan woman at the well, it remains a beautiful story and a beautiful transaction between Jesus and the woman.

    As far as me using the word God in some of my comments, I have made it clear that righteousness itself is the most high, the truth, the result of which is peace, the ideal. This is what I am referring to, not to some deity.

    Take care.

  223. MichaelFree
    Posted February 8, 2015 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    You said:

    “The idea of an afterlife makes no sense to me. How am I supposed to see without eyes and hear without ears? How are the physical photons and physical sound waves supposed to interact with my non-physical soul? Neuroscience shows that our mental experiences are fundamentally based on processes in the brain. How are we supposed to think without a brain? And what are we going to do forever?”

    I can’t argue with the truth of what you say here. It reminds me of a guy on YouTube who quite rightly and truthfully points out that Earth is the only place in the known universe that has the elements necessary to produce and sustain fire. Of course fire is life giving here on Earth. He then points out that a “fiery place of torment” in the non-physical afterlife is impossible and then goes on to say how evil the thought of a place called hell is using the example of people in a burn ward in a hospital not unlike the example I gave of the Jordanian pilot being burned alive (ironically that’s what his job was dropping bombs from his plane, the blind hypocrites).

    The idea of an afterlife to me is a “want”, not a “need”, and physical death and what comes next is not something that produces “fear” in me, because I know I “die” every night when I go to sleep.

    My interest is genuine peace and happiness on Earth, not debating the science of matter.

  224. Posted February 8, 2015 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Greetings Michael!
    When the sinless Son of God uses the verb hate in this context His desire for us is to still love our parents, but our love for them musn’t be higher than our love for Him.

    God’s word commands us to honor our parents. Loving someone and honoring them belong together.
    This teaching of Jesus isn’t duplicitous but loving! The teaching refers to degrees of love that we have. If man desires to honor God’s beloved Son he must be willing to follow Him. Dear readers, trust wholeheartedly the sinless, holy One and you will be truly blessed!

    Mathew 16
    24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

  225. MichaelFree
    Posted February 8, 2015 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You said:

    “When the sinless Son of God uses the verb hate in this context His desire for us is to still love our parents, but our love for them musn’t be higher than our love for Him.”

    I’ve heard this before. It disgusts me. It reminds me of two-bit dictators, emperors, kings/queens, presidents, and cult leaders that want the people’s affection or else. In North Korea when Kim Jong-il died I heard a news story that the police would see people on the street who they perceived weren’t “grieving” enough for the personality and would punish them for it. This is the psychology of cults of personality.

    My interpretation of the words are that Jesus is the truth, so not a being, but the truth. If I’m holding an apple in my hand and I say that I have an apple in my hand, it is the truth. This is what the truth is.

    So in the interpretation Jesus says that if we love ourselves or anyone else more than we love the truth then we are undeserving of the truth. For instance if I’m driving down the road with my dad and my dad gets road rage and kills someone and we drive away and go home, do I seek to hide him from the truth of his guilt or do I turn him in? I choose the truth and turn him in. This is what the parable means to me.

    Now I understand that you love Jesus and that is great but what you have set up is a weird cult of personality that divides people from one another based on their belief and love for the personality. Those who don’t follow the personality are sent to hell (not unlike a dictator sending people to prison or executing them). In my interpretation I do not divide people from one another based on anything except for the truth vs the lie (in word and deed) thus everyone in the world is equal in my eyes. The truth sends no one to hell because in truth a place called hell is a transgression and there is no transgression in the truth, therefore malefactors are restrained, treated well, treated fairly and proportionately, and not abused, but are given time to come to the truth through truth, love, and rehabilitation.

    The cult of personality stuff is weird and unsettling to me. Imagine telling your wife or children that you love Jesus more than them, and how disgusting that they must feel because of that, and then imagine telling your wife and children that you value the truth above all things, and how wonderful that is. The dichotomy is striking. The duplicitous words created a mass of people that believe like you do and a miniscule amount of people, if not just one person, who believes like I do.

    Read this, I’ve clarified it with my interpretation:

    Mathew 16
    24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me (the truth), let him deny himself (the part of him that doesn’t follow the truth), and take up his cross (path of truth), and follow me (truth). 25 For whosoever will save his life (choose the lie over the truth) shall lose it (lose the truth): and whosoever will lose his life (choose the truth over the lie) for my (truths) sake shall find it (truth). 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world (material gain over the path of truth), and lose his own soul (becomes the hypocrite/liar instead of the truth teller and truth doer) ? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (in exchange for the truth)? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father (the truth) with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    In the Sheep and the Goats Jesus divides people according to their “works”, not their “beliefs”. This is clear.

    If you want to interpret “works” as “beliefs” that is fine also because I tell you now that your “beliefs” neither spiritually “feeds people who are not Christian”, neither spiritually “gives drink to people who are not Christian”, neither spiritually “takes strangers who are not Christian in”, neither spiritually “cloths people who are not Christians”, and neither spiritually “visits people who are not Christian who are sick or in prison”.

    You know what is sinless and that has an everlasting Kingdom? The truth, for it can never be a lie, because it’s the truth.

    Now Jesus may be an actual person and the Christ and may actually come back again. I don’t know. I’m sticking with the truth though, not some cult. And even if he did come back would I want to bow before him? My lifetime has precluded bowing before beings. I’m sure the most high understands this as much of this world and it’s cults of personality suck. I don’t mind bowing before the truth though because unlike beings the truth is always the truth and I know without a doubt that it will always be the truth.

  226. Posted February 8, 2015 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you lack understanding on this matter, for it is impossible to separate the truth from the God of the holy Bible

    If you are unwilling to bow down before Your Creator it is impossible for you to wholeheartedly follow Him because those who love Him delight to trust and obey Him.

    They don’t call Him duplicitous, refuse to acknowledge that He is a living Spirit and they most certainly don’t categorize His holy book as filthy.

    Michael, you should go to the Bible and study it more attentively in 2015, for the God of the holy Bible longs to teach you that He is totally trustworthy!

  227. Posted February 8, 2015 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you write that me is truth. Me refers to the sinless Son of God wo is the truth. He says He is coming again. Welcome Him to bless you with this insight. Stop all your immature criticism of His true followers and let Him teach you the truth.

  228. Posted February 8, 2015 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Michael, your error is that you still fail to grasp that works and beliefs of man are interlinked. A person who rejects the LORD can’t live honourably before Him. The sheep are a picture of the saved and the goats are a picture of the unsaved.

  229. MichaelFree
    Posted February 8, 2015 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You said:

    “Michael, you lack understanding on this matter, for it is impossible to separate the truth from the God of the holy Bible”

    Sure it is. I just take out all the human sins attributed to God and I am left with the truth.

    You said:

    “If you are unwilling to bow down before Your Creator it is impossible for you to wholeheartedly follow Him because those who love Him delight to trust and obey Him”

    If you are unwilling to bow down before the truth, love, and compassion it is impossible for you to wholeheartedly follow truth, love, and compassion.

    You said:

    “They don’t call Him duplicitous, refuse to acknowledge that He is a living Spirit and they most certainly don’t categorize His holy book as filthy”

    If the “Creator” didn’t want to be called duplicitous he/she wouldn’t be associated with duplicitous words in a book, which leads me to the question, who wrote that book? My answer is that human beings wrote that book and that a Supreme Creator Being had no part in it. The truth is a living spirit this I know. If that book didn’t have evil attributed to the most high I wouldn’t call it filthy (ie the blood of babies on the hands of grown men, murder of innocents, the rape of women, slavery, racism etc).

    You said:

    “Stop all your immature criticism of His true followers and let Him teach you the truth”

    My criticism of your religion is well founded.

    You said:

    “Michael, your error is that you still fail to grasp that works and beliefs of man are interlinked”

    I couldn’t agree with you more which is why I wrote: “If you want to interpret “works” as “beliefs” that is fine also because I tell you now that your “beliefs” neither spiritually “feeds people who are not Christian”, neither spiritually “gives drink to people who are not Christian”, neither spiritually “takes strangers who are not Christian in”, neither spiritually “cloths people who are not Christians”, and neither spiritually “visits people who are not Christian who are sick or in prison”

    What is “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”. My interpretation is that everyone goes to heaven. The “everlasting punishment” is the knowledge that you take with you to heaven that while you were here on Earth you messed up and were a condemner and learned not to love the truth or love love and thus in your mind condemned good people to hell. The “life eternal” is the knowledge that you take with you to heaven that while you were here on Earth you didn’t mess up and were not a condemner and learned to love the truth and to love love and thus did not in your mind condemn good people to hell.

    I don’t doubt that you are part of Jesus’ followers. You can hate all you want and associate with whom you agree as long as you help people in need, speak the truth, and respect other people and their property. However, if you oppress women, people of other relgions, atheists, people of other ethnicities, people of other nations, or homosexuals, you will have a big problem not only in this life but in the life to come.

    I’ve truly had enough of going in circles with you. I’ve spoken plainly. You can comment some more but I will not reply.

    Take care.

  230. MichaelFree
    Posted February 8, 2015 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    It was nice meeting you and chatting with you. You are a good person and filled with truth. I like you my brother.

    Take care.

  231. MichaelFree
    Posted February 9, 2015 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    Richard,

    I think I’ve called someone brother before that I wasn’t directly related to and they said that they are not my brother. If you feel the same way that is fine.

    Take care.

  232. Gnade
    Posted February 9, 2015 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Michael, you are a person who claims he “knows”. You claim to know that the Bible is the work of man when the Bible testifies that it is given by inspiration of God.

    And because your starting point is false you write error after error. Michael, as you haven’t yet been blessed by the God of the holy Bible that He is your unique Creator, therefore you should start afresh and study the Bible.

    Some of your ideas are correct, but it is a very serious error not to acknowledge that the author of the holy Bible is the holy LORD.

    So what are you doing wrong? You are rushing into interpreting Scripture without understanding it! What then do you need to keep in mind as you study the Bible? You need to keep in mind that people who love eternal God esteem the Bible.

    Truly, if anyone finds the Bible filthy it means that their thinking needs to cleansed by the author of life!
    Enjoy your Bible studies.

  233. MichaelFree
    Posted February 12, 2015 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I apologize

    One more thing.

    if Jesus comes back I bet he’s for all of humanity and doesn’t divide by religion, but rather by our heart, our good words and our good deeds. This necessitates that it’s all people including those who would transgress that are loved and cared for. God is good. Be good to one another. Truly love one another. This is the Jesus I know. This is the heart of God that I know.

  234. Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Stop yelling at the LORD that He is dangerous company and start heeding what He says in His holy book!
    Richard , your often inacurate commentaries remind me of those who enter an interstate out of a side road and do not even slow down. A big eighteen-wheeler pulls over, almost wrecking the driver.

    The truck driver leans out of the window and yells, “Hey, didn’t you see that sign?” The person concerned said, “What sign?” The trucker said, “That sign that said, Y–I–E–L–D.” “Oh,” the driver said, “I always open the window of my car and yield as loud as I can at dangerous truck drivers.”

    What must errant drivers do? What must sinful man do? He must choose to stop yelling and yield to Christ. He must yield with all of his heart to the power, the presence, and the provision of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Dear reader, who has the “right of way” in your life? Make it the the desire of your heart to yield yourself to compassionate Jesus Christ.

    “…yield yourselves unto God…”
    Romans 6:13

    Bow before the Lord, the Lord who reveals Himself in the holy Bible, and surrender all of you to all of Him today!

  235. Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Yes, the LORD is good but let’s open the history books! Study the period from 1939-1945 and you will notice that the LORD allows periods of punishment too. False religion by definition divides man.
    All the false religions divide man and are tools of Satan who seeks to deceive and destroy man.
    The only safe way is to follow the risen, sinless Son of God!

  236. Posted February 12, 2015 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Richard , your often inacurate commentaries remind me of those who enter an interstate out of a side road and do not even slow down. A big eighteen-wheeler pulls over, almost wrecking the driver.

    Get real Reine. You have not shown any errors in anything I’ve written. You cannot show any difference between your beliefs and those of any other cult such as Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, or whatever. You just keep repeating your empty assertions without supporting them with either logic or facts.

    You apparently have no interest in truth at all.

  237. Gnade
    Posted February 13, 2015 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Islam promotes self reliance whereas the God of the Bible
    inspires and empowers man to rely on God.

  238. Posted February 13, 2015 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Islam promotes self reliance whereas the God of the Bible
    inspires and empowers man to rely on God.

    Where did you get those crazy ideas? The teachings of Christianity and Islam are identical concerning reliance on God. Devout Muslims rarely say they will do anything without adding “Inshallah” which means “God willing.” This is exactly the same teaching as seen in James 4:15. And then if things work out well, they take no credit for the success but rather say “Marshallah” which means “praise God.” There is little if any difference between Muslims and Christians in this regard.

    Your bias against Islam appears to be based on ignorance.

  239. MichaelFree
    Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    And another:

    Imagine the first person on the planet had no sin because there wasn’t another person alive.

    When the first person met the next person they had to decide how to get along. For that was there goal.

    They had their word and their deed.

    One way was good and one way was bad.

    They decided that when they talked they would speak the truth (wine, blood, John 4:10 by the Holy Spirit) and when they did things to the other person or to their property (bread, body) they would do them in agreement and not without (Matthew 18:19 by the Holy Spirit).

    It’s the way of peace.

    If you deny it to anyone who does these things then you speak against the Holy Spirit. To say that an unrighteous so-called “Christian” goes to heaven while a righteous Buddhist (True Christian) does not is blasphemy because you speak against the Holy Spirit.

    If you don’t see it in righteous people who are not like you it is because you are blind to the Spirit. The true Spirit, not the lie that spoileth. Love is love. See love in love and truth in truth and ompassion in compassion and righteousness in righteousness.

    Be around other people and you will see these things. Who has a reverence for justice and for the truth? You will see these things.

  240. MichaelFree
    Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    And Jesus said the Holy of Holies: Matthew 25: 1-46, help people who are in need, in truth, at least in proportion to what you yourself would appreciate. Compassion, even for those who don’t understand. True compassion.

  241. MichaelFree
    Posted February 14, 2015 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Our words and deeds are Spirit.

  242. MichaelFree
    Posted February 15, 2015 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    This is what much of Christianity asks of me: “join our religion or join your dad in hell”.

    My dad died in 1984. He was a non-religious person.

    To much of Christianity I extend to you my middle finger.

  243. Posted February 15, 2015 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    This is what much of Christianity asks of me: “join our religion or join your dad in hell”.

    My dad died in 1984. He was a non-religious person.

    That’s why the Gospel is not “good news.” On the contrary, it is the message of eternal torment in hell for the majority of people who have ever lived.

    Here’s a little joke that really says it like it is:

    Jesus: “Knock, knock.”

    Me: “Who is there?”

    Jesus: “Jesus. Let me in.”

    Me: “Why should I let you in?”

    Jesus: “So I can save you.”

    Me: “Save me from what?”

    Jesus: “From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in.”

  244. Posted February 15, 2015 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Richard, while many Muslims are sincerely looking for God they actually bow down to a false god which the true God rejects. It doesn’t matter how many times a person says if the god of the Koran is willing, for everything about him isn’t based on truth.
    What they are saying is: if the false god of the Koran is willing. They show by this speech that they are willing to submit to the will of a false god who hates the author of truth, the God of the holy Bible.

    Richard, as soon as someone understands that the God of the Bible has nothing in common with the false god of the Koran they can see more clearly the true situation.

  245. MichaelFree
    Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    That knock-knock joke was written by a wise person. The wisdom in it is knowable.

    The mind of people is the thing that is freed when we judge according to word and deed and not according to thought “crimes” or the appearance of an individual as being a “crime”.

    When one judges others on word and deed and the root of each, namely lying, stealing, and assaulting other people physically, then the mind is freed to not judge others because of their beliefs, their personal habits that affect no one else, their perceived demeanor, the way they look, their gender, their religion, their atheism, their ethnicity, their nationality, or their sexuality, thus freeing ourselves from the fullness of the big lie.

    If you judge the root lie, theft, and physical assault in things of the world you are not susceptable to the propaganda of the liar, the thief, and the one who assaults. You have no bias except for the truth and genuine respect for each and every individual. And it’s this lifetime that matters not an ancestor’s lifetime so we can’t be judged by what we did not do.

    We judge righteously when we look for the one who truly initiates lies, thefts, and physical assaults in the world, and then act with restraint and compassion instead of revenge.

    And being sarcastic or generalizing in our speech is not lying. So it’s “do not deliberately be deceitful”.

    Righteous judgment. It means something. For me it’s peace of mind and being a good neighbor to other people.

    The “Christian” ideology gets on my nerves but then I remember that just like the Jews and the Muslims most people are good people and just want to get by and get along. In the enlightenment people wanted to rule themselves and I believe that people will one day take the reins away from all governments that separate themselves from the will of the people. It is a very human concept to bow before other people in subjugation. To put this and the “big lie” onto an unseen supernatural intelligent being is not a truthful endeavor and quite possibly a disservice to what may be a benign supernatural intelligent being.

  246. Gnade
    Posted February 16, 2015 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Michael, if you have no or scant “taste” for quoting from the purest book of all how can you grow to appreciate who He is and what He teaches.

  247. Posted February 16, 2015 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Michael, if you have no or scant “taste” for quoting from the purest book of all how can you grow to appreciate who He is and what He teaches.

    Purest book of all? What are you talking about?

    Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

    2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

  248. MichaelFree
    Posted February 16, 2015 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    I like this quote:

    Isaiah 65: 16 “That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes”. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

  249. MichaelFree
    Posted February 16, 2015 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    And this one also:

    Matthew 7: 12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    If taken seriously it cuts right to the heart of the matter.

  250. Posted February 17, 2015 at 5:31 am | Permalink

    Michael, your quotes are phenomenal. Who then is the God of truth? The only God of truth in the entire universe is the sinless God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible. Trust and obey Him wholeheartedly and blessing upon blessing will be your reward! Your second quote is tremendous too!

  251. Posted February 17, 2015 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Psalm 137:8-9: “O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed, happy the one who repays you as you have served us! Happy the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!

    God is not telling Israel to smash the heads of their infants against rocks. Israel was taken captive with their children by the Babylonians in several different invasions.

    God is pronouncing judgment upon Babylon for its great sin in showing no mercy when it destroyed Jerusalem and led the Jews captive. God is stating that Babylon will be dealt in the same manner that she treated Israel (according to prophecy). The day is coming when an enemy (will rejoice in its triumph over Babylon, and will be happy in the Slaughter). It was the Medes and Persians that conquered Babylon. She was completely overtaken and ruined by these empires. And just as she rejoiced in destroying Jerusalem and Israel, God says her conquerors will rejoice in destroying her, including her innocent infants.

    God is not commanding such barbaric behavior but stating what the future will be for Babylon.. This was a fulfillment of Isaiah 13:15-16: Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is captured will fall by the sword. Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.”

    Richard, the God of the Bible takes revenge! He is long suffering, compassionate and loving but when He deems it justified He takes revenge! He can take revenge by His own hand or the hand of man as in this case.

  252. MichaelFree
    Posted February 17, 2015 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Revenge is another human concept that many people put onto their idea of God. Civilization warrants civilized behavior so that our inclination towards revenge is restrained because revenge is the law of the jungle and beneath human dignity.

    They use their idea of God being vengeful in their attempt to justify their own human failings.

  253. MichaelFree
    Posted February 17, 2015 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Revenge is hypocrisy in a civilized society. Restraining violence from happening is the highest ideal.

  254. Posted February 17, 2015 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    A good starting point to understand this subject is Romans 12:19. In this verse we read: Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
    Notice the word never. Notice also the verb leave it to. God’s will is that those who love Him never take revenge.

    Romans 12:17-21

    Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Jesus taught in Matthew 5:38-39
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

  255. MichaelFree
    Posted February 17, 2015 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    If someone slaps me I will attempt to restrain them just like if they slapped my mother.

    Your interpretation of the book probably makes me evil for doing self defense but my interpretation of reality makes the one who lets evil happen complicit in evil or at the very least a victim of it.

    Your interpretation of the book makes God supportive of good and evil and my interpretation of reality is that good and evil are two separate things.

  256. MichaelFree
    Posted February 18, 2015 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Enough BS, you think my non-religious dad deserves eternal torture, and for this, your God is evil, and you won’t acknowledge it because your head is so full of duplicitous mush.

    Why anyone would want to be religious is beyond me. It’s all fairy tales and attempts to justify unjustifiable human behavior towards one another.

    God commanded Moses in Numbers 31 to do all sorts of abominations so don’t ever tell me that your God says not to take revenge, even revenge against babies and the raping and enslavement of women and little girls. Your God many times makes humans and their belongings the belongings of other human beings and for this your God is the antithesis of goodness and truth, indeed the antithesis of righteousness.

    In short, what brings you peace, brings the thinking person much dismay.

  257. MichaelFree
    Posted February 18, 2015 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You are a used car salesman. The car you are trying to sell me is a lemon. You keep saying it is not a lemon but I have test driven it and indeed it is a lemon.

  258. Gnade
    Posted February 19, 2015 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Michael, your error is that you judge many things from your own experience, failing many times to remember that the LORD requires man to turn to Him for guidance.

    Start asking for the God of the Bible’s guidance, for then He will delight to bless you with accurate insights about what He has done.

  259. MichaelFree
    Posted February 19, 2015 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Every time I tell you about my dad you do not deny that you believe he is being tortured in hell.

    What kind of religion are you pushing Reine, for surely it is not love, truth, mercy, compassion, peace, oneness, and love thy neighbor as thyself, but rather hate and fear and love thy neighbor “Christian” as thyself. Your religion is selfish, proud, and conceited, and it’s based on beliefs which have nothing at all to do with the truth, so you don’t recognize non-Christians who value love, truth, mercy, compassion, peace, oneness, and who love their neighbor as themselves, so you make a mockery of the truth instead and call the mockery righteous when nothing could be more of a lie or more hypocritical.

    The lord is the truth (righteousness) and the truth itself is a great teacher of wisdom born through experience in the real world.

  260. MichaelFree
    Posted February 19, 2015 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Matthew 7: 1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    Remember this when you bow to condemnation of non-Christians.

    Luke 10: 25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God (Love, Truth, Compassion, Righteousness) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

    I remember reading that for the first time and getting a good laugh out of the lawyer separating himself from other human beings. You see, our neighbors are every human being in the world. The Jew separates themselves from Gentiles, the Christian separates themselves from non-Christians, and the Muslim separates themselves from non-Muslims, and you all learn it from the same book.

    With this in mind remember this, Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father but by me (the way, the truth, and the life)”. The way is being peaceful in our deeds, the truth is being truthful in our words, and the life is the state of not being separated from love, truth, compassion, righteousness, indeed from the Most High.

  261. MichaelFree
    Posted February 20, 2015 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’ve had enough.

    Take care.

  262. Posted February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    The way is the sinless Son of God. What way did He go? He went, out of obedience to the LORD, to the cross.

    Are you willing to go this way, Michael? Are you committed wholeheartedly to trust and obey the God of the holy Bible? If you are the LORD will draw you to His beloved Son.

    It’s not a question of me judging you, but of you needing to know that you need to turn to the Teacher of teachers more fully.

    Pray to the LORD that He becomes your preeminent teacher, for to truly love the LORD man must treasure Him as the highest authority. He can use our “experiences” to teach us, but the “safeest” place to learn about Him is from the holy Bible.

    Start doing this wholeheartedly and He will take the ininiative in teaching you the truth, so that you never again call His living Word filthy.

    You need to make a deep study of how the God of the Bible uses the word unrighteous, because you fail to understand that He teaches that those people that He hasn’t saved are what He calls unrighteous.

    The way, the truth and the life are all found in the sinless Son of God. Do you recognize the Holy One as authoritatlve, Michael? Have you left all to follow Him?
    May the LORD plant a desire in your inner being to truly hallow His holy name.

  263. Gnade
    Posted February 25, 2015 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Michael you write: Congratulations (Richard) on beating the book.

    No one can “beat” the holy Bible. This greatest of all books in existence is the most awesome gift. It is the very Word of God.

    Man can’t “beat” the the Author of life. Man only succeeds in beating himself up when he makes the colossal blunder of failing to bow down before the Teacher of teachers.

    Michael, the LORD had decided what He would do with the unrepentant before He created us!

    Likewise, He knew what He would do with those who repented and He was able to draw to His Beloved Son.

    God’s plan of salvation isn’t something He decided on deep into finite time, because in His mind our Lord was slain before the foundation of the world.
    (See Revelation 13:8)

  264. MichaelFree
    Posted February 25, 2015 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Perhaps “beating the book” is not a good description of what I mean.

    This is better:

    Saying 53 The Gospel of Thomas

    “Blessed is the lion that the man consumes, and the lion becomes man (humane). And cursed is the man that the lion consumes, and the man becomes lion (inhumane).”

    The lion is all religious texts ever written. Blessed is the person that reads them and doesn’t lose their humanity but rather finds it.

    It is not humane, kind, or loving to tell me to join your religion or join my dad in hell. My dad was no better and no worse in life than the average so-called Christian.

    The true follower of Jesus follows divine laws, and doesn’t just give lip service to him being the savior.

    The follower of truth has never seen Jesus, has never seen God, but sees righteousness everyday. Asking for faith in the existence of a being that one has not seen is not a truthful endeavor. Asking for faith in the righteous path is a truthful endeavor.

    Follow truth. Have faith in the truth.

    It’s okay to have faith in God or Jesus but when you attribute unrighteousness to God or Jesus what do you really have faith in? Your Jesus sends my dad to hell. I don’t like him. He is not kind.

  265. Gnade
    Posted February 26, 2015 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Yes, asking for faith in the way of righteousness is praiseworthy but only
    righteous God can bless tman so that He lives honorably before the Him.
    This way is following the God of the holy Bible. He is invisible to the physical eye but reveals Himself to those who wholeheartedly hunger and thirst for Him.

  266. Gnade
    Posted February 26, 2015 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Michael, what is important above all else is what the LORD teaches.
    Our feelings about whether
    He is kind are not can change because He has the power to change them.

    God is love.

    He is kind because someone can’t be love and not be loving.
    Kindness is an attribute of our loving LORD, so that when He rebukes, corrects or punishes someone He always has valid reasons for doing this.

    Your Dad was treated justly his whole lifetime by the LORD and he will be judged on his words and deeds. God spoke to him many times and he had many opportunities to repent and follow the sinless Beloved Son of God.

  267. MichaelFree
    Posted February 27, 2015 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Remember there is more than one interpretation of the Gospels. One just has to understand what unkind and unloving means and then interpret the Gospels in a kind and loving way.

    God-being never spoke to my dad but many who claim to speak for God-being did, and he soundly rejected them, because they said good is bad and bad is good.

    I know what this means: “I desire compassion and not a sacrifice”.

    My father was kind and loving. I am my fathers son.

  268. MichaelFree
    Posted February 27, 2015 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I would rather share my dinner table with actual pigs, dogs, and goats, than to share my dinner table with an unrepentant divider of humanity. At least the pigs, dogs, and goats do their job, and are appreciative of a good meal, unlike many human beings who know that their job is to be good to one another and to the Earth, and yet many choose the path of darkness over the path of light, mammon over the truth, thus quitting their job, and calling it righteous, and for this you can eat, but you must eat outside.

  269. Posted February 27, 2015 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you are in my opinion relying on your own interpretations of holy Scripture. Instead of doing that welcome the LORD to reveal to you the truth. Stop using language that attempts to depersonalize Him and follow the example of the Savior who calls Him Father.

    Michael, unsaved man is unable to do what you say. Unsaved man needs to be the recipient of a miracle that only the LORD can bring about. Unsaved man needs to be born again.

    Michael, once again you claim to know what a Bible verse means but in my opinion you don’t. If you understood what the righteous King did on the cross you would delight to wholeheartedly praise Him continuously for His perfect atoning sacrifice.
    Open the Bible and ask the LORD to teach you about Christ’s atoning sacrifice!

  270. MichaelFree
    Posted February 27, 2015 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    All interpretations of bible verses are opinion. This is what you don’t understand. No one gave the churches any special power to correctly interpret scripture.

    Your religion depersonalizes women, people of other religions, people who are atheists, and people who are homosexuals. Once you strip them of their humanity then it is easy to cross over and treat them here on Earth inhumanely. Physical transgressions against human beings and their property are the rotten fruit of the bible and it’s littered throughout history.

    The fruit is so rotten that you think it is righteous to ask me to become a “Christian” and thus sacrifice my dad and all non-Christians (in my mind) to a place of eternal torment called hell in order to save myself from that same place. And then you tell me that I don’t know what “I desire compassion and not a sacrifice” means when I tell you I will not become a “Christian”.

  271. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Personalizing God is what tribes do whereas if God is love and truth this would transcend across all people because everyone loves and everyone says and does truth and everyone should know that God is truly love and truly truth and is for every human being, not just a particular tribe. Everyone is the temple and always has been. Physically respect other people and their property just like a temple and speak the truth. Human beings are a miracle of creation.

    This is peaceful in the world. This transcends not only every person but righteous judgment throughout history.

    All of the crimes of history are a violation of this.

    Truly the initiator of physical violence and the thief are the biggest transgressors possible; no matter your religion you get no pass. The next worst thing is the liar. Then comes the person who never helps other people but at times would appreciate help from other people.

    Help people in need. Speak the truth. Respect other people and their property. It’s how most of us want to be treated by other people.

    And I do believe there is a supernatural intelligence that is benign that wants peace for us and that genuinely loves us all but I’m not going to attribute transgressions of the human temple to God including torturing my dad and other non-Christians in a place called hell. Why would God transgress the temple? These are things that humans do, not God.

  272. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    And when I say temple I do not mean a statue but rather holy, people and their things are sacred, we should honor one another in this way. Person and person’s property. We are all human beings and have dignity and have ownership of our person and of our property.

    Judging people based on their gender, religion, atheism, ethnicity, nationality, or sexuality, are all false judgments and always have been. All of these groups don’t violate anyone. They honor the human temple in their words and deeds and indeed in their hearts and they know God (love and truth) also. They can be at peace and there is still hatred and dehumanizing of them because of their group identity, their tribe, and it’s false judgment.

    Truly the sadness of the world.

    When we rid ourselves of our trespasses against people, our thefts, and our lies, and our false judgments, we are truly free.

  273. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    And the most holy Most High thing is helping people in need. Compassion. Truly beautiful.

  274. Gnade
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Michael, your claims about man are false. Man’s heart needs cleansing. His heart is deceptive. How do you expect anyone to warm to what you write if you keep on writing things like if God is love.
    True teaching involves man teaching that God is love.

  275. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Truly love and truth are the Most High. Love and truth are righteousness. To me righteousness is the Spirit of God and my best way of knowing that Spirit, which is above and outside of me, and which I could never be myself, but only a disciple of, is to choose righteousness over unrighteousness in my words and in my deeds as best as I can.

    In this way God is love to me. So you’re right. We just have a difference of opinion as to who the fullness of Gods love is extended to. To me, it is everyone in the world. To you, you’ve made it clear that it is the Christian only. To me it is everyone that love has touched, and that is all people.

  276. Gnade
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Michael and all readers!

    The only true LORD loves everyone in the whole world (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). His love for the whole world is based on the fact that He is a God of love (1 John 4:8, 16).

    Almighty God’s love for all of mankind results in the fact that He shows His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23).

    Truly gracious God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent (2 Peter 3:9).

    However, His love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin.

    The only true God is also a God of justice (2 Thessalonians 1:6). He teaches that sin cannot go unpunished forever (Romans 3:25-26).

    The most loving act of eternity is described in Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

    Warning! Anyone who ignores God’s love, who rejects Christ as Savior, who denies the Savior who bought him (2 Peter 2:1) will be subject to God’s wrath (Romans 1:18).

    Truly, the God of the holy Bible, the only true God, only has “covenant love” for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:36).

    Holy God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all. Yet God only loves Christians in that only those who are born again have His eternal grace and mercy and the promise of His love in heaven.

  277. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You have your interpretation and I have mine.

    When Jesus said he is the truth and to love one another I take him at his plain word. I don’t discriminate. My neighbors are literally everyone in the world and there is no greater love than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. I really do love all people. Now, some people I don’t like, but I still love them, because it is not them I dislike, but their ways.

    Take care.

  278. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Awhile back now when I was changed by choosing the righteous path I was truly born again.

  279. MichaelFree
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    But the followers of righteousness also hold onto the followers of unrighteousness, to care for them, with restraint, love and truth, so as to have compassion.

  280. MichaelFree
    Posted March 1, 2015 at 4:59 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I wrote “all interpretations of bible verses are opinion”.

    A more accurate way of saying this is:

    When a bible verse is clear ie “do not lie” there should be no misunderstanding of its clarity. When the verse requires interpretation then all interpretations of that verse are opinion.

    Take care.

  281. Posted March 1, 2015 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Michael, your understanding of who your neighbor is correct! Do you pray for people like me who are your neighbor? I did see that you accused me of being discriminatory for saying that most of the world’s population are unsaved. That teaching is based on my Bible studies.
    Michael, do you love me, a follower of Christ? Do you praise the one true God for His holy book? Has your understanding of the Bible changed or are you just telling another “story”?

  282. Posted March 1, 2015 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Greetings!

    If anyone is not teaching that the God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is good then he or she has been deceived by Satan. Such people can claim to be born again but it is just boasting, for God has allowed their understanding to become darkened.

    No one can love the Author of life and find His Bible filthy at the same time.
    Dear readers, the Bible is given by inspiration of God. Those who love God will also highly esteem the holy Bible.

  283. MichaelFree
    Posted March 1, 2015 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I can love you without loving your ways and without loving your religion. I would never bow to a religion that in their minds condemned Christians to hell. I want you to have a good life without being oppressed and for you to go to heaven when you pass, just like I want for all people. No book is going to take this away from me.

  284. MichaelFree
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    A friend of mine that I’ve known a long time is known by his friends as being peaceful and for helping other people who are in need. His words and his deeds bear witness that they are done in the Spirit of God (love and truth). It is not his religion that reveals this but rather his heart. True religion comes from the heart. Good people are Gods people. The meek (peaceful) truly inherit the Earth.

    Love thy neighbor as thyself and then you will know what love God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your soul means. And then with that heart you will know why God came first all along and why human beings matter.

  285. MichaelFree
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    And I will definitely not bow down to any religion’s idea of God where that God has words and deeds attributed to it that I as a human being am not allowed to do because they are transgressions. True religion recognizes this. And there is no fear in righteousness. I can look to righteousness and genuinely smile and be genuinely appreciative and in this I can experience the Spirit.

  286. Posted March 2, 2015 at 4:14 am | Permalink

    Michael, the God of the Bible is not an idea. He is the only true God. You write that you love some of things He does and intensely dislike some things He has done like sending the Flood. It is no easy thing tobow down before the Author of life.

    Michael, are you desirous to appreciate what Jesus Christ did on your behalf on the cross? Your commentaries are usually lacking in any references to the cross, the Lord’s resurrection and the words He spoke after He rose from the dead. If you put more effort into gaining some insights into these historical events you would have a better chance of esteeming the God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible. The more eagerness you display to praise the risen, righteous Son of God the more your studies will succeed.

  287. MichaelFree
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    Jesus saved the whole world when he went to the cross, not just Christians, and he showed us the righteous path in life, to love one another.

  288. Sharon Kline
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Hello, I stumbled on your website when I was looking for the encampment of the Israelites around the tabernacle in the form of a cross. I respect the fact that you have researched for the past decade your faith in the Bible and God. However, I noticed that you used the same circular reasoning in your paragraph debunking creation. “The Big Bang directly contradicts the creation myth in the Bible.” You give no evidence for this, only to state that the earth is 9 billion years old. Actually, that’s exactly how it would look if the Bible is true. I have seen no evidence from any scientist concerning the Big Bang that contradicts the Bible. This is a problem for evolutionists. This is why so many scientists are trying to prove that the universe is eternal. However, all evidence continues to point to the fact that the universe had a beginning. The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that things go from order to disorder, not the other way around. We see evidence for this everyday. We’ve never seen evidence for the reverse. The universe is expanding and winding down. These are both scientifically proven. Only something that had a beginning, and is finite would wind down. The bottom line is, either “someone created everything out of nothing” (Christian view) or “No one created everything out of nothing” (atheist/evolutionist view) (Norman Geisler and Frank Turek,) Which one is more reasonable? Which one requires more faith? Even skeptics have faith. They have faith that skepticism is true. I would recommend in your search for truth, that you read “I Don’t have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.” I pray that you will see the evidence for God and change your mind.

  289. MichaelFree
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Ultimately interpretations of the Gospels as a whole are none of my business. I realize now that they were none of my business from the start and that I should’ve never read them.

    Take care.

  290. MichaelFree
    Posted March 4, 2015 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I said previously that I should not have read the Gospels. It should say I probably should not have read the Gospels.

    Take care.

  291. Posted March 5, 2015 at 4:12 am | Permalink

    John 5:42 But I (Jesus) know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    Michael, most of the world’s population don’t have the love of God in them. They are unsaved..Anyone fighting against the name of the Son of God doesn’t love Him. Anyone fighting against the holy Bible is deceived! Anyone who thinks Muslims are praying to the true God and are righteous is deceived.

  292. Posted March 5, 2015 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    Michael, the Gospels are unique treasures. What an honor it is to study them. The Son of God wona great victory over sin, death and Satan bon the cross, but most people reject His teachings and most people reject Him..That is a terrible error.

  293. Posted March 5, 2015 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Matthew 24:37-39

    But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark.

    And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    At this time in history the LORD decided to save only 8 people. Likewise today few people will be saved by the LORD relative to the population of the world. The flood should remind us that the LORD is sovereign over life and death.
    What should you do? Open the New Testament with the desire to be taught by holy God. Praise Him for the opportunity to study under His tutelage. Put a stop all your uninformed commentaries and decide to willingly learn from the Teacher of teachers.

  294. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I said that I probably shouldn’t have read the Gospels but in truth I should’ve never of read them. The Gospels have been a curse upon me since right after I read them. I should’ve read a book on truth and goodness instead.

    You’ve been arguing for me to join your religion or join my dad in hell, and you don’t even see the evil that you are doing. You are literally telling me that your God is love and that your God has my dad burning in hell right now, you know, because your God is love. And then you allude to me personally being evil because I don’t accept your evil religion where its hypocrisy and lies are overwhelming.

    I was raised an agnostic/atheist, as reality would have it, and never imagined a deity, much less one hovering over people. Clearly your deity nonsense is mental illness.

    No where in any of my comments did I say that you deserved violence in any fashion Reine. But everywhere in your comments you say that non-Christians are deserving of violence in hell. YOU JUSTIFY VIOLENCE, I DO NOT, REMEMBER THAT REINE. There is no better measurement of good and evil than measuring our deeds, and the deeds of your make-believe God are evil, not good. Your make-believe God of love is a torturer, making him a liar, because surely he is not love. Your evil make-believe God then says that not worshiping him is the most evil thing, not violence mind you, but rather mindful disbelief of the invisible; thus your God makes a mockery of the truth and even has the nerve to call itself the truth, but surely he is not the truth.

    Your God is neither love nor truth but rather is hate and fear and filthy lies.

    Your religion says that it is love but in reality it is an invention of evil, a usurper of love and truth.

  295. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Here’s some quotes from that book you call love and truth Reine:

    Jesus said:

    “Love one another”

    Then Jesus says:

    “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”.

    These are plain words spoken by Jesus.

    The bible is a curse. It is not the good book. It is a book of witchcraft.

    Human beings are better than the bible. The Earth is better than the bible. The bible is a curse upon people and the Earth. It is a curse upon truth and common sense and human decency. It is a curse upon love.

  296. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Peace is the highest ideal in life.

    Christianity is not a peaceful religion. Individual adherents may be peaceful but the doctrines themselves are not peaceful. The history of Christianity and the mental illness it strives to put upon people are not peaceful.

    Jesus said:

    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household”.

    He did not succeed in my household. My household is at peace.

  297. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    The bible is not peaceful. It is the self expression of evil pretending to be good.

    Look at my comments Reine, there is no violence in them, but there is violence in yours.

    Your God is violent Reine. A violent baby killer who will never get his hands on my nephew to corrupt his heart and his decency. My nephew is taught love and truth for all people and for the world. He is taught the good life.

  298. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    When a person can point to the bible and quote verses to justify their sins, and do it with enthusiasm, that book is evil, plain and simple. If that book we’re love and truth this would not be possible. No one could point to love and truth and justify any sin for love and truth reveals their sins as sin. There is no getting around this.

    So quote all you want Reine, as obviously that book is all that you have. Perhaps another flood will rid the Earth of the bible once and for all, or perhaps fire, like what I did to the bible I had. It felt good burning it and getting that crap out of my house.

  299. MichaelFree
    Posted March 8, 2015 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Little kids know that Jesus harmed no one and thus did not deserve to be crucified. His killers murdered him. Truth and goodness reveals this to them.

    But that book you cherish so much says that it is alright to kill him because he broke the Sabbath and called himself the Son of God.

    It is you that have to reconcile the truth of the bible, not me.

    My God is love and truth, righteousness, not a deity, not a book, and not a religion. Just plain truth and goodness.

  300. MichaelFree
    Posted March 9, 2015 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I know a righteous interpretation of Jesus in the gospels but I also know there are more than one interpretations of the gospels.

    All I’m left with is righteousness, good words and good deeds, love one another, and eyes that see.

  301. Posted March 9, 2015 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Michael, who is man’s enemy? Lot’s wife after losing all her children and all her riches thought it was God. Her foolish advice to her husband was that he should curse the God he had put his trust in.

    The holy Bible teaches very clearly that Satan is man’s enemy. Instead of burning the Bible you need to read, study and demonstrate it, for it has words of life. The God of the holy Bible loves you!

  302. Posted March 9, 2015 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Correction: It was Job’s wife who was deceived. She offered Job foolish advice when he was in the depths of suffering and heartache.

  303. MichaelFree
    Posted March 10, 2015 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    In the story of Job God deity conspires with Satan deity to afflict Job human being with all sorts of evil, to kill all of his children, to kill all of his workers, to take Jobs health, and to take all of Jobs wealth.

    If Job knew the depths of the evil that was done to him, where God deity conspired with Satan deity to do all sorts of evil to him, I think Job would have come to his senses and stopped worshiping Satan, and found the One True God who does no evil.

    God is love and truth.

    Two fathers are at a hospital with their daughters and their daughters are not doing well. Both fathers pray to God for their daughter to do well, and one daughter does well, but the other daughter dies. The one father whose daughter does well praises God so loud that everyone nearby hears, including the father whose daughter died. The father whose daughter died comes to the realization that God doesn’t answer prayers at all, and in particular prayers for health or material wealth. He sighs and smiles and knows that God is love and truth, an illuminated path, not a deity that plays favorites or loyalty games.

    Love and truth.

  304. MichaelFree
    Posted March 10, 2015 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    And I must not forget Jobs children and the people that worked for Job. Their lives are not footnotes in the torture of Job. They have souls. Their lives have meaning. In the bible many people are thought of as less-than and worthless and in truth this is not so, their lives have meaning, just like the lives of non-Christians.

    You said that my dad had many opportunities to repent and come to Jesus. This is your way of saying that you believe he is being tortured in hell and that you don’t have a problem with it.

    My dad is in heaven because God is good and good alone.

    Love and truth.

  305. MichaelFree
    Posted March 12, 2015 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I should not of said that Job was worshiping Satan. For this I apologize. I believe that most people praise goodness.

    My point is this. This is what Job said when it was all said and done:

    “Shall we receive good from God and shall we not receive evil?”

    One can interpret this as saying that God is good and evil. In the story God deity and Satan deity conspired together to harm (do evil deeds to) Job human being. The harm was real. People were killed. This is not comforting.

    God to me is like the truth as it can never be a lie. God is good. Good can never be evil or conspire with evil because it is good. The only source of evil in the world comes from human beings, not from God, and not from the world. The status of our health or of our wealth is not an indicator of evil as life is good and a gift. To purposefully take someone’s health or take someone’s wealth is an indicator of evil. Jesus said that no one is good but God. People are surely good and evil whereas God is only good. Let’s put the blame where blame is due and it’s not on God.

    If a human being assigns evil to God and proclaims a dehumanizing doctrine about other human beings that are not like themselves, then their God can be readily used in an attempt to justify evil deeds done towards people in the world. The righteous and true path in word and deed and seeing the humanity in all people is truly the peaceful way as it can never be used in an attempt to justify evil deeds. It does not play favorites.

    Love and truth.

  306. Posted March 13, 2015 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    The verb conspire means to agree together, especially secretly, to do something wrong, evil, or illegal.
    The LORD is good. He doesn’t do things that are wrong, evil or illegal.

    The unjust suffering of Job must be traced back to Satan who seeks to deceive man. Recall that the devil, Satan, comes to steal, kill and destroy.

    Unless man makes a deep study of what Satan does he will always come to wrong conclusions not just about Job and his family but the entire Bible.

    Michael, you should go back to the words of the sinless Son of God with the goal of treasuring them. Put the difficult subjects aside, until your love for the good Shepherd is firmer and more firmly established!

    This year from now onwards I am going to be doing some research in some specialised subjects related to the Bible, because of time constraints I will not be posting here anymore.
    Michael, may the God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible bless your sincere efforts to understand Him.

  307. MichaelFree
    Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Goodbye. Take care.

    -Michael

  308. MichaelFree
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    I recently found out that many Christians think that Judas Iscariot is in hell. I’m saddened by Christianity.

    Judas betrayed Jesus by disclosing his whereabouts. He obviously knew not what they had planned for Jesus as he was disgusted by them wanting to kill Jesus when he found out. His repentance was throwing their filthy money back at them, and then leaving, and in complete surrender, killing himself. Many Christians have no idea what forgiveness means. No idea whatsoever. They think that because the bible says that suicide is a sin that Judas sinned not once but twice, but he actually came to repentance, and relinquished what had been his motivating factor to begin with, the filthy money. He came back to truth but he could not forgive himself. I honor his heart.

    Just like the repentant robber on the cross Judas Iscariot came to repentance and let no man take away what occurred between Judas Iscariot and God in the Gospels of Jesus Christ.

  309. MichaelFree
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Love thy neighbor means something. It is everyone on Earth. It is every human being.

    God is good. God is not hate or fear, but rather is love and truth. The way to God is through truth, in word and deed, and love in your heart, towards other people and the world.

    Righteousness is right thinking, right saying, and right doing, good thoughts, good words, good deeds, seeing the dignity in people/helping people in need/minding your own business, speaking the truth, physically respecting other people and their property, love, truth, and agreement. These are the core things. These are the root.

    The root and the offspring of righteousness is love.

  310. Bibelverse
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Repentance is a gift of the LORD to sinful man. One of the men hanging on a cross beside Jesus did repent. Notice that his speech was to Jesus. This isn’t the case with Judas of Iscariot. His speech is “I” focused.

    Judas of Iscariot was a covetous man whose chief concern was himself.
    True repentance protects man from acts of self harm because it is a blessing of the LORD and He is very protective of those whom He has blessed with His gift of repentance.

  311. Bibelverse
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    May the LORD be our righteousness. Put your trust in the sinless Son of God!

  312. MichaelFree
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Jesus said he was the truth. When Judas repented and came back to the truth he was a repentant formerly covetous person but you don’t see his repentance so you accuse him of dying in his covetousness. The verse even says he “repented” using plain language.

    The truth is not a person. You don’t believe Jesus when he said he was the truth so you say ridiculous statements like Judas did not direct his speech toward Jesus. Judas’ final deeds spoke louder than any words and he came back to the truth.

    The bible stole the truth from you and made it into a being because the bible is written by evil people who hate the truth. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all “I” focused and are all “covetous” because they all divide humanity from humanity giving each who buys its lies the “I’m a special person curse”, because you’re all covetous, proud, and greedy, and you all say that good is bad and that bad is good.

    When another persons deed was so bad that they cannot forgive themself, so they kill themself out of remorse, it is not another human beings place to say that them killing themself is just another sin. A person is remorseful and you call it sin because your father is the devil and the God of the bible is the devil. The bible has probably caused more self harm and harm to people in the world than any other book ever written. The bible is harmful. It is not helpful. It is an evil book, not a good book.

    May righteousness be your righteousness. Put your trust in righteousness. But you can’t do that because you have been indoctrinated by the devil to not extend righteousness to those who are righteous who are not so-called Christians. You are blind being led by the blind. Your religion hates people and even says that fear is righteous.

    Your God Satan came to steal the truth, to kill the truth, and to destroy the truth, but the truth was here all along, waiting for us, so that we may have life, and have it more abundantly.

    If your God being wanted to show itself I’m sure it could do it anytime, but it won’t to you, unless to rebuke you, because you are not worthy, because you accept things like the blood of babies on grown men’s hands, rape, slavery, and torture as being sanctioned by God. Your God is evil. The truth is good. Hate and fear are evil. Love is good.

  313. MichaelFree
    Posted March 16, 2015 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    I said:

    “If your God being wanted to show itself I’m sure it could do it anytime, but it won’t to you, unless to rebuke you, because you are not worthy, because you accept things like the blood of babies on grown men’s hands, rape, slavery, and torture as being sanctioned by God. Your God is evil. The truth is good. Hate and fear are evil. Love is good”.

    It should say:

    “If God being wanted to show itself I’m sure it could do it anytime, but it won’t to you, unless to rebuke you, because you are not worthy, because you accept things like the blood of babies on grown men’s hands, rape, slavery, and torture as being sanctioned by God. Your God is evil. The truth is good. Hate and fear are evil. Love is good”.

    One word makes all the difference in the world.

  314. MichaelFree
    Posted March 17, 2015 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    When I say Satan is the God of the bible I mean all the horror stories about God in the bible. There are plenty of good stories in the bible also. Religion messes up even the good stories. Religious doctrines are horror stories not stories of true peace and true love.

    God is goodness.

  315. MichaelFree
    Posted March 17, 2015 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Psalm 125

    Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion,
    which cannot be shaken but endures forever.
    2 As the mountains surround Jerusalem,
    so the Lord surrounds his people
    both now and forevermore.

    3 The scepter of the wicked will not remain
    over the land allotted to the righteous,
    for then the righteous might use
    their hands to do evil.

    4 Lord, do good to those who are good,
    to those who are upright in heart.
    5 But those who turn to crooked ways
    the Lord will banish with the evildoers.

    Peace be on Israel.

  316. MichaelFree
    Posted March 17, 2015 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Numbers have a purpose. They are used to count things. That is their function. They are good to us in this way. They are wholly good.

    When we assign spirit to numbers besides the spirit of goodness alone and make certain numbers good and certain numbers bad we are taking from the inherent goodness of the number, which is wholly good, and making certain numbers evil, and it’s all a lie. It’s witchcraft.

    The same goes for attributing evil to God. It is witchcraft. It’s corruption. When one harms that which is innocent and calls it a good thing it is corruption.

    This age will come to an end.

  317. Bibelverse
    Posted March 17, 2015 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Michael, accusing me of following Satan because I show that what you write is often false only reflects badly on you. You have shown repeatedly that you don’t understood what repentance is.

    No words of Judas of Iscariot were addressed to the LORD. Repentance must be unto God. The Bible does use the words that Judas of Iscariot repented himself. This wording doesn’t mean that he repented!

  318. MichaelFree
    Posted March 18, 2015 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    I don’t think that Jews, Christians, or Muslims worship Satan. I believe they all worship goodness, because most people are good people, but that the division, hatred, and fear across religions is evil. Hell being depicted as a place of torture rather than a condition that human beings may live in is also evil. Fear in worship is evil.

    God is good. Pursue the path of goodness. Love, not fear.

    Truly.

  319. MichaelFree
    Posted March 18, 2015 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    The strongest repentance is remission of sin. Someone can say they’re sorry all day long but when they prove it in their deeds that is real repentance.

  320. MANGIFT
    Posted March 18, 2015 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    Dear Mr. McGough,

    i’m glad for you. when i read your website when i was 10, i thought it was the greatest peace of apologetics ever, and apparently you did too. but then i went on a big ass quest through religion, philosophy, and science, and im back. i am now 16 and have realized the greatest god you can have is the person you strive to be. worship yourself and others as the highest beings on earth today, and be a good caretaker of those animals and plants below you, and the heaven the ancients strived for can be achieved here, right now, in your home town. you dont need to read some 4000 year old book of bullcrap to know that, just a open and unshackled mind. do you not agree?

    i bless you in the name of the earth that birthed us and will take us back after we die.

    so be it.

    (and sorry for the Bronner-esque comment)

  321. Posted March 18, 2015 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr. McGough,

    i’m glad for you. when i read your website when i was 10, i thought it was the greatest peace of apologetics ever, and apparently you did too. but then i went on a big ass quest through religion, philosophy, and science, and im back. i am now 16 and have realized the greatest god you can have is the person you strive to be. worship yourself and others as the highest beings on earth today, and be a good caretaker of those animals and plants below you, and the heaven the ancients strived for can be achieved here, right now, in your home town. you dont need to read some 4000 year old book of bullcrap to know that, just a open and unshackled mind. do you not agree?

    i bless you in the name of the earth that birthed us and will take us back after we die.

    so be it.

    (and sorry for the Bronner-esque comment)

    Hey there Mangift,

    Wow – it never really occurred to me what a ten year old might think when reading my site. Thanks for telling me about your journey.

    I completely agree with being kind to all kinds of animals, including humans. I can accept the use of the word “worship” as applied to those things we love, since that is common usage, but I wouldn’t choose the word myself because it has too much baggage.

    I also agree that no should take a “4000 year old book of bullcrap” as anything like the “Word of God” but I would caution against rejecting it entirely because it is a record of our common human past. It was written by people just like you and me (and a few that were much better, and some doubtless worse). The important thing is that it is a psychological record of our common human history and so is an exceedingly rich resource for insight into who and what we are. The only problem I have with it is when people read it in a fundamentalist or authoritative sense.

    I’m really glad you stopped by to share your experience. Don’t be shy!

    Richard

  322. bibelverse
    Posted March 19, 2015 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    In Matthew 7:13–14, Lord Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

    From the lips of the sinless Son of God we discover here that few people are blessed by the LORD with eternal life.

    Who is the gate that Jesus mentions? This gate is Jesus Himself. It isn’t a gate made of metal or wood but the resurrected sinless Son of God.

    Only a few relative to the large population of the world find the living Lord who loves us. Why is the road described as narrow? Because the Bible teaches that without holiness it is impossible to see the LORD.

    The LORD blesses man when he hungers and thirsts for righteousness. Are you hungering and thirsting to trust and obey the gracious LORD who reveals Himself in the Book of books? Are you hungering and thirsty to hallow His holy name?

  323. MichaelFree
    Posted March 20, 2015 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Bibelverse,

    Your comments sound a lot like Reine Gnades. But Reine Gnade said this: “This year from now onwards I am going to be doing some research in some specialised subjects related to the Bible, because of time constraints I will not be posting here anymore”, so you can’t be Reine Gnade, unless you are, and you refused to acknowledge that “I will not be posting here anymore” is no longer valid when you posted here again.

    It is not sinless to say that sinless in word and deed non-Christians go to hell.

    A Buddhist lives his whole life clean, no lying, no stealing, no hurting people, and making sure to help people in need. According to “loving” Christianity the good non-violent Buddhist deserves violence done to him in the afterlife. The Buddhist begs Jesus “please don’t hurt me, I resolved on Earth to abhor violence, so please don’t hurt me”, and unrighteous Jesus devil says “too bad, you didn’t follow my rotten fruit of a flock and didn’t sell your soul to unrighteous division, hatred, and fear, so good riddance”.

    Christianity is laughable.

  324. Posted March 20, 2015 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Bibelverse,

    Your comments sound a lot like Reine Gnades.

    Hey there Michael,

    Bibelverse is a pseudonym used by Reine Gnade. I know this because he is using the same email address. I don’t know why he changed his name.

    Richard

  325. bibelverse
    Posted March 21, 2015 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Michael, in order to understand life you need to understand that the God of the holy Bible sees His creation in two categories! They are from His perspective saved or unsaved. He also uses the wording righteous and unrighteous and just and unjust. Buddhists are human beings. Buddhists have the opportunity like everyone else to be saved. Even if a Buddhist doesn’t study the Bible the LORD stil calls them to repent. If they say “Yes” to His teaching voice they would at some point come out of Buddhism!

  326. MichaelFree
    Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade (bibelverse),

    Your enthusiasm can’t cover up the evil deed of torture that your Jesus wants to do to all non-Christians. Its completely evil to do harm to someone who has harmed no one (Buddhist example); no amount of words will cover up this root transgression as the transgression is neither righteous nor just. Your can bow to the root transgression if you want to but I will not.

    Why won’t you come clean about your previous words where you said that you wouldn’t comment again, and yet here you are? I know it’s uncomfortable sometimes to come back to the truth. I suppose it’s good enough that you don’t deny being Reine Gnade, although it’s kind of an awkward time to change your name.

    What proceeds from our heart and our words and our deeds mean something beyond what you are giving them credit for. Your religion makes a mockery of goodness and the truth.

    I use a pseudonym here. I’m a private person. I’ve used the same pseudonym here continuously so that there is no mistake about who is commenting.

    My first name is Michael but my last name is private.

  327. MichaelFree
    Posted March 21, 2015 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    bibelverse (most likely Reine Gnade),

    And I could be wrong. I suppose you could be someone else that is using Reines email address and sounding exactly like Reine.

    I wouldn’t beat you up over this except for the fact that it’s kind of funny and ironic.

    Truth be known.

  328. MichaelFree
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    The Pharisees in Jesus’ time, at least according to the Gospels, thought it just fine to kill Jesus, who harmed no one, because they used their religious beliefs about not breaking the Sabbath and not equating yourself with God to kill him. Never mind that he never harmed anyone, just like the non-violent Buddhist example that I gave.

    MANGIFT, from the comment above, wouldn’t stand a chance in the temple in Jesus’ time. Good path MANGIFT would be a goner even though he chooses good over evil.

    The most evil thing we can do to each other is to inflict physical harm upon one another. When two people agree to fight ie a boxing match, that is just fine, but when the one being harmed does not agree to it, the transgression is a violation, and no amount of religious words or make-believe God crap can cover it up.

  329. bibelverse
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Who is free? Are Richard, Rose and Michael free?
    Explorers for trut, unsaved man isn’t free. He is separated from the Author of life. He can’t do what Michael claims he can do. He is a rebel even though he, in his arrogance, thinks of himself as a liberator.

  330. Posted March 22, 2015 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Who is free? Are Richard, Rose and Michael free?
    Explorers for trut, unsaved man isn’t free. He is separated from the Author of life. He can’t do what Michael claims he can do. He is a rebel even though he, in his arrogance, thinks of himself as a liberator.

    That’s the doctrine of the Calvinists. I just happened to be listening to R. C. Sproul, who explained (in a long winded way) that no one can choose Christ because no one can choose the things of God unless God first saves them. Christianity is fatalism. No one has any choice. God ordained all who would go to heaven or hell before anyone was born.

  331. bibelverse
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    When two people fight in a boxing ring that is the opposite of what you are saying, for the Lord commands us to love our neighbor and not to punch him in the body or head where his health can be damaged.

  332. MichaelFree
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’m free from bowing to the root transgression.
    I’m free from bowing to fear.
    I’m free from making excuses for the transgressions in the bible that are attributed to God.

    The liberation I’ve tried to do here is to try to make the liar a truth teller, the thief a giver, and the one who physically assaults other people into the one who helps other people who are in need.

    Check my comments. It’s been my preaching.

    You can say whatever you want about me but you cannot speak against these things here. Say whatever you want about how I feel about the bible but do not profane helping people in need, speaking the truth, and physically respecting other people and their property.

    I have not rebelled against the true path in word and deed and being good and standing up for all human beings.

  333. MichaelFree
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    If two people agree to a boxing match it is no ones business but theirs and theirs alone. You try to steal their freedom from them and try to tell boxers who absolutely love boxing that they can no longer box. You have no idea what freedom is.

    Quit trying to parent adults.

  334. bibelverse
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    The GOD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is the Sovereign of the world, the One who does all things as He wills.

    Those who blindly believe que sera, sera, or “whatever will be, will be,” are as wrong as the advocates of chance.

    Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism for our wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30).

    The man who does not really want eternal God to have this control or who despises the truth of God’s sovereignty does not love God and does not want God in his life.

  335. MichaelFree
    Posted March 22, 2015 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Many Christians go to church and are taught that non-Christians are not fully “neighbor”.

    I live in the East Bay, San Francisco Bay Area, where my neighbors are literally representatives of everyone from all walks of life.

    I was taught to view all these people as equals. It’s in my blood because it was how I was raised. “Christianity” wants to steal this from me by lying about my neighbors by saying they are evil, even though most of them are great people, and then wants me to be content with a mindset that has them burning in perpetual murderous torture for eternity.

  336. Gnade
    Posted March 23, 2015 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Michael, non Christians are my neighbor. The LORD commands me to .love people who hate the God of the Bible as I love myself

  337. Gnade
    Posted March 23, 2015 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Richard, Rose and Michael Free hold
    the view that the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible is “stealing” something from them.

    That is very opposite of what is happening, for even when He corrcts and rebukes man it is for his benefit.
    Truly He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

    Whoever diligently and wholeheartedly seeks to learn from the sinless Son of God will discover that it is a tremendously worthwhilue adventure.

    If anyone in the world truly is hungering and thirsting after righteousness, the Author of life will encourage them that they are in the right direction. God’s will is that man hungers and thirsts after righteous Lord Jesus, His Beloved sinless Son.

  338. MichaelFree
    Posted March 23, 2015 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”.
    “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.

    My friends are all people.
    My neighbors are all people.

    This is why it is not righteous to say that only “Christians” go to Heaven.

    Not all people are “Christians”.

    Most non-Christians and probably most Christians have never even read the Bible.

    How then can a non-Christian hate the God of the Bible?

    “Christians” and non-Christians can love and hate righteousness. You can argue about whether or not a hater of righteousness was ever actually a “Christian” to begin with, but I will not. There are too many unrighteous “Christians” in the world–who profess to be “Christians”, and whose friends vouch for their “Christianity”–for me to ever buy that line of bull, so you know what I’m talking about when I say that “Christians” and non-Christians can love and hate righteousness.

    “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other”.

    I hope Jesus is the righteous Jesus I found.

    I can’t follow unrighteous Jesus who didn’t lay down his life for all of humanity. I just can’t. I’ve had mental and physical sickness because of this. It makes me get dry heaves.

    Compassion and rehabilitation are righteous, not revenge and punishment. Love and truth are righteous, not hate and fear.

    The righteous Jesus helped show me a road and it makes me smile. He helped show me compassion for other people that makes me cry, both out of sorrow and out of joy.

  339. MichaelFree
    Posted March 23, 2015 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    It is stealing when righteousness tells me that:

    Women are equal to men.
    Your choice of religion does not matter.
    There is nothing wrong with atheism.
    There is nothing wrong with what ethnicity we are.
    There is nothing wrong with what nationality we are.
    There is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
    We are all fully human beings worthy of equal respect and equal dignity.

    But the Bible and “Christianity” tells me: all those statements are wrong.

    Righteousness tells me that all those statements are good and true because there is no righteous accuser of women, people who are religious, people who are atheists, people of all ethnicities, people of all nationalities, and people who are homosexuals. None of these things have any bearing on our righteousness towards other people in the world.

    People can debate religion and atheism and even have harsh words for each but when we go outside the sun is still shining and we can each go our own way in peace.

    When we judge righteously the surface things mean nothing, and the flash of unrighteousness they provoke in our minds is vanquished with a resounding “no”, saying yes to the good things and no to the bad things.

    It is theft when the Bible attributes to God what would be a sin for a human being to do. A theft, not only of righteousness, but also of knowledge of the One True God.

  340. MichaelFree
    Posted March 23, 2015 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Love and truth when fully appreciated comes from outside of us but is also within all of us. This is God.

    “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (love) and in truth”.

    I’ve never met deity but I know what love and truth are.

  341. MichaelFree
    Posted March 24, 2015 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Several comments up I said: “How then can a non-Christian hate the God of the Bible?”

    It should say: “How then can a non-Christian who has never read the Bible, or who has never thought about Bible verses, hate the God of the Bible?”

    *

    I’ve only read the Gospels from beginning to end.

    *

    I’ve heard and read enough of the NT and the OT to know why many people who have read the Bible or who have read Bible verses, hate the God of the Bible, or hate what has been attributed to God in the Bible. When I hear people proclaim that unrighteous things are righteous and point to the Bible to justify it, indeed I hate that. And it’s not hate of God but rather hate of unrighteousness. Hate of unrighteousness is righteous.

  342. bibelverse
    Posted March 24, 2015 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    Michael asks: How can a non Christian hate the God of the holy Bible especially when he or she hasn’t read the Bible?
    My answer is that man forms an opinion of the Author of life whether he reads the Bible or he doesn’t.

    The LORD teaches non readers of the Bible, although they are “separated” from Him.

    This love an unsaved person experiences isn’t God but His blessing man to exprience love.

  343. MichaelFree
    Posted March 24, 2015 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Ultimately many people who are religious say that God is love, that God is truth, and that God is righteousness, but in the same breath they will tell you that an atheist who practices these things is not in touch with God. The reason for this is because God to you is none of those things but rather a deity who plays favorites and loyalty games. If God were these things to you then you wouldn’t disparage anyone in life who practices these things, but rather you would see God in them.

    Your deity is a usurper of love, truth, and righteousness. The fruit of the Bible and the wake of destruction that has been its path testifies to this fact as love, truth, and righteousness are creative forces, not destructive ones.

    If love, truth, and righteousness were what was preached instead of a confusing, self-destructive, and hypocritical duality perhaps the world would be a better place, not only physically, but also psychologically.

    There is a line that is crossed when someone decides to physically assault other people who have done nothing of the sort. When this is learned the world heals. It is the foundation of peace.

    There is a line that is crossed when someone steals something that belongs to another person. That thing that is stolen can never actually belong to the thief so the thief has no rightful attachment to the thing that was stolen because the thief was neither given the thing that was stolen nor did the thief earn what was stolen. When we are given things by their rightful owner, and when we work to acquire things ourselves, those things are ours and ours alone and we have a rightful attachment to them.

    There is a line that is crossed when someone lies about the truth in order to gain an advantage in life at the expense of the truth. The liar has no rightful claim to what they seemingly achieve through deceit.

    There is a line that is crossed when we use revenge, punishment, and humiliation in justice instead of physical restraint, truth, fairness, and rehabilitation, as an eye for eye makes the world go blind, but love and truth opens the eyes and the whole world can see.

    These things are fundamental.

    When the fundamentals are sneered upon as hindrances and burdens and the world’s religions and philosophies offer up much of the same, the mind is like a dog that chases its own tail and yet can never catch it. Yet when the dog learns that its tail can’t be caught they learn to walk straight. When the dog that walks straight is sneered upon by the dogs that still chase their own tails, the dog that walks straight knows they are free, and has the proof to show for it for all who value the truth.

    Who is like righteousness?
    A follower of righteousness.
    The field.

  344. Posted March 24, 2015 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism for our wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30).

    Your comment is quite confused. The idea of “fatalism” in Christian theology stems from the Calvinist assertion that God ordains “whatsoever comes to pass.” It is the opposite of the idea that “things just happen.”

  345. MichaelFree
    Posted March 25, 2015 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    When we choose the good Spirit over the bad Spirit in our hearts and in our words and in our deeds towards all people and towards the environment, we are choosing the good life.

    I choose goodness and recognizing goodness everywhere that there is goodness

    And I do believe in a heaven afterlife. For all people.

  346. MichaelFree
    Posted March 25, 2015 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Being good and true in our words and in our deeds is the good Spirit and so is happiness in our heart. It’s how we honor “God”, how we know “God” is righteous, and doesn’t discriminate, and how “God” knows that people of all sorts can walk the same path and not change from still remaining people of all sorts, and yet walk the good path nonetheless. See God in everyone and in everything. God is good.

    God to me is not a deity. Not a “person” but a Spirit, but that a “supernatural intelligence” does exists that cares about goodness, what some people would call “God”.

  347. bibelverse
    Posted March 25, 2015 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you are trying to understand what is going on without bringing God’s enemy, Satan, into the discussion. Although the LORD is sovereign most of the world’s population are unwilling to trust and obey Him.

    Billions of people are hiding from the LORD. His voice says regarding the the good Shepherd: This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him.

    When man starts to listen to the Son of David that’s when his interest in the holy Bible grows!

  348. bibelverse
    Posted March 25, 2015 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Yes, the teaching that “God is spirit” is found in John 4:24: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship (Him) in the Spirit and in truth.”
    Jesus is Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). When someone is with us that is personal.

    A true believers relationship with Emmanuel is a personal one. Those who God saves have a personal, intimate relationship with Him.

    Everything about our loving Creator is personal. His love when rightly appreciated inspires and empowers man to return His love.

  349. Posted March 25, 2015 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Billions of people are hiding from the LORD.

    You’ve got that precisely backwards Reine.

    If God exists, he has done everything in his power to hide that fact from everyone.

  350. Posted March 25, 2015 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you are trying to understand what is going on without bringing God’s enemy, Satan, into the discussion. Although the LORD is sovereign most of the world’s population are unwilling to trust and obey Him.

    Why would anyone trust a God who (assuming he exists) has done everything in his power to prove absolutely that he is not trustworthy? You should read my article on this fact and point out any error you think you might find. Here is the link:

    Is God Trustworthy? The Root of Religious Delusion

  351. MichaelFree
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    When deity doesn’t show up in any provably meaningful way then Richard is absolutely correct: deity is not trustworthy.

    How trustworthy is deity when there are many religions that profess knowledge about deity and yet that professed knowledge differs across religions and causes conflict in the world? This is because it is religion that is worshipped, an idea of deity, not actual deity.

    This business about deity creeps me out because of all the guessing about deity. What if deity is real? What if deity doesn’t like human sin being attributed to it? Attributing human sin to deity is an unjustifiable act. Attributing human sin to righteousness (goodness) is impossible. Attributing human sin to human sin is the only truthful conclusion.

    Most religious people and atheists are good people.

    The bad atheist who thinks there is no judgment is not any different than the bad Jew who thinks that Abraham is their father or the bad Christian who thinks that Jesus is their father.

  352. bibelverse
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    The God who reveals Himself in the holy Bible not only exists but is from eternity to eternity.

    From sinful man’s perspective He is hiding from Him but when he diligently seeks the LORD wholeheartedly the LORD delights to reveal Himself to him.

  353. MichaelFree
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Your expression is one of faith not of truth. Faith is belief so it’s fallible. The truth is not belief so it’s infallible. This is why all religions pretend that they are the truth.

  354. bibelverse
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Having faith in the faithful witness, the sinless Son of God, is a blessing from God. No one can come to the Author of life except through Him. It’s an error to try to split faith and truth because they are inseparable, for the LORD is both faithful and truthful.

  355. MichaelFree
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    It is an error to split faith and truth because having faith in the truth in both word and deed and the outcome of each is what sustains the follower of truth.

  356. MichaelFree
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’m both faithful and truthful and yet you won’t see it in me because I’m not a “Christian”.

  357. MichaelFree
    Posted March 26, 2015 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    The truth is the true vine and all followers of the truth are branches who bear good fruit.

    The savior to me is the Spirit of righteousness, the Spirit of truth.

  358. bibelverse
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    In John 15 Jesus said, “I am the True Vine”!

    Yes, Michael. The sinless Son of God is the truth, the true Vine. He is the good Shepherd, the Savior and the Spirit of truth.

    When anyone truly loves Him their wholehearted praise will be for His perfect finished work on the cross.

  359. bibelverse
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Michael writes: I am faithful and truthful.
    This is the opinion of many people but the LORD desires to reveal to His creation that they are sinners in need of salvation.

  360. bibelverse
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Who sustains man? Both unsaved and saved man are sustained by the LORD. The unsaved are characterized by ungratefulness and the saved by gratefulness toward Him.

  361. MichaelFree
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    You said:

    “Who sustains man? Both unsaved and saved man are sustained by the LORD. The unsaved are characterized by ungratefulness and the saved by gratefulness toward Him”.

    Does the sinning “Christian” who is grateful for Jesus come before the non-sinning follower of truth who is grateful for the truth?

    God, if anything, is not an idiot. You have to put in effort in life in order to get something out of it. The path of truth is the way.

    God is really love and truth.

    The follower of truth is grateful for the truth and grateful for love and for compassion. This encompasses all people.

  362. bibelverse
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    God our Savior desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Truly there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    The Lord God doesn’t have any pleasure in the death of the wicked. (See Ezekiel18:23)

    John 3:16
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Explorers for truth, do you take seriously the Word of the LORD who says, “How long shall this wicked generation grumble against me?”

    Warning! The LORD hears the grumblings of the people of world, which grumble against him.

    Luke 17:17-19

    Then Jesus answered, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”

    Will you show yourself grateful for the cleansing work of eternal God in your life?
    Will you always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you pray to him?

    Sinful unrepentant man, has forsaken the Lord. Those laden with iniquity have despised the Holy One. Sinful rebellious man is utterly estranged. His whole head is sick, and his whole heart faint.

    Whoever says “I know the LORD” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. (See John 2)

    Do you believe that the Spirit of the Lord God was upon the sinless Son of God? Do you believe the Lord anointed him to bring good news to the poor?

    Do you believe He was sent by our heavenly Father to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound in prison?

    Is your witness that you have decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified? Are you praising the risen Lord of lords?

  363. bibelverse
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Michael, there is no such person alive as a non-sinning follower of the truth. Everyone sins- both Christian and non Christian. Your teaching is false!

  364. MichaelFree
    Posted March 27, 2015 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I don’t like that dark teaching Reine. That is a sad and strange teaching you have there. It is not instructive nor uplifting. It hurts my heart and doesn’t heal it. Keep that teaching away from my families children. You mind your business and I will mind mine.

    God is good. God is goodness. God is a smile. God is peace. God is dignity. God is in all people and in all of creation.

    Fear does the opposite of God for it is a conjurer of evil and the mind will many times play along. The jig is up. God is goodness. Don’t ever bow to fear or antihuman hate mongers, but rather praise love and truth. Righteous Jesus said to love one another. I take him at his word.

  365. Gnade
    Posted March 28, 2015 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    Michael, every person living on earth sins and most people smore frequently than they realize.

    Billions of people in the world are unsaved and don’t have an intimate relationship with the LORD.

    From the LORD’S perspective He has never “known” them even though He has been good to them their whole life time.

    These people have for the most part chosen to stubbornly live independently of Him.

    You can look for God in unsaved man but you are just wasting your time because He doesn’t dwell with them. There is a separation.
    Michael, you are a sinner like Richard and Rose who needs to recognize that you are a sinner!

  366. MichaelFree
    Posted March 28, 2015 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I’m not surprised that you have such a bleak outlook on life seeing as the bible is antihuman and antilife.

    I have no business with anything about the bible or about Jesus.

    I’m done.

    I have no business here anymore.

  367. bibelverse
    Posted March 28, 2015 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Michael, what does the sinless Creator want to reveal to his creation? He desires to reveal to man that he is a sinner in need of salvation.

    Man can’t live a life that glorifies the LORD unless the LORD blesses him with new life. As the Son of Man said to Nicodemus: you must be born again. Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus can be found in John Chapter 3!

    Start reading the book of John and desire to start believing what you read instead of saying you are done with the holy Bible and holy Lord Jesus.

    Michael, Satan’s cunning plan is to draw you away from the holy Bible because it’s a pure book.
    Currently you believe that it is bleak to believe the truth that man is sinful but it is needful to do this for our heavenly Father to draw broken and contrite sinners to his Beloved Son. Michael, desire to put your wholehearted trust in the risen Lord and your love for Him will grow as never before.

  368. MichaelFree
    Posted March 28, 2015 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Gnade,

    If you knew what righteous judgment was you would see good in what is good and bad in what is bad and you wouldn’t go around telling people who have been doing good that they are sinners. You’re messing up my peace.

    You have no idea the depths of the wickedness in your comments. If I added up the kill count in them it is in the billions. Yet you think you’re righteous or at least that you’re a good slave.

    I’m not commenting anymore in this thread. I’ve had enough.

  369. bibelverse
    Posted March 29, 2015 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Michael, everyone does some good things but they still sin and need to repent. Unsaved man is unsaved no matter how many good things he does over a whole lifetime.

    Michael, you claim to have peace, be at home and all sorts of things but you don’t yet desire to bow down to the Author of truth, the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible. He is the only person who can give man enduring peace, for He is the Giver of peace.

  370. bibelverse
    Posted March 29, 2015 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Michael, I am an imperfect man yet righteous, eternal God has been with me for nearly two decades. I serve Him willingly . Because He first loved me I had an opportunity to return His love. I know what you need to do because He has blessed me over many years with discernment on many important matters.

    Follow my advice and study the book of John more attentively and if you show yourself willing to trust and obey the LORD He will mature your level of understanding.

  371. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    I apologize, I do have another comment.

    God is what we humans should strive to walk with. In our lives we have our words and we have our deeds. The Buddhist monk who has talked to no one and who has physically interacted with no one and who has not harmed the world for two years has not sinned for two years. If you call him a sinner you are a liar and your teaching is depressing and not uplifting.

    You should learn righteousness and goodness and not religion. It is good for your heart. You can find goodness in Jesus also. I did. I don’t deny that the truth comes through him and I don’t deny the compassion that he imbued in me. Compassion for our fellow human beings as equals with dignity is amazing and shows that human beings are good to one another in the most profound way. It is to be celebrated, not looked down upon.

    Every good word and every good deed gets a p!us and every bad word and every bad deed gets a negative. For the last two years my pluses have been plentiful and my negatives very few. Then Reine says I’m a sinner. No thanks Reine I’m not joining your strange religion that makes people feel bad who have actually been doing really good.

    If there is an ounce of truth in you.

    God is uplifting. Good thoughts. Good words. Good deeds. Thanks for the creation and everyone and everything around me. I choose goodness, not a horror story, but rather goodness.

    Just as the one who has a problem with his brother should work it out before coming to the altar so should you understand that “love thy neighbor (exactly) as thyself” comes first, and then comes knowledge of what “love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul” means.

    How else are you going to walk with God?

  372. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    The Golden Rule can be interpreted two ways, both good and bad, which is why righteous Jesus said “all things whatsoever that people should do to you, do unto them likewise, this is the law and the prophets” and “the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist and since then the Kingdom of God is preached”, which is the answer to the Gokden Rule in both word and deed, the True Golden Rule.

    Say I want to get punched in the face:

    “All things whatsoever that people should do to you, do unto them likewise, this is the law and the prophets”. “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”.

    This says its alright to punch someone in the face in order to get punched in the face yourself.

    The answer to the Golden Rule is that we like to be told true words and not to be lied to, and for deeds to be done to us, that affect our person or our property, to be done with our agreement and not without.

    Now, say I want to get punched in the face:

    Ask someone to punch me in the face. Ask and keep asking and someone is bound to help me out. And its done in peace. Many won’t see it though.

    Matthew 18:19 “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven”.

    I live this stuff everyday and life is good.

    Respect other people and their property.
    Speak the truth.
    Help people in need.
    Be rehabilitative in justice, not vengeful or punishing.
    Be good to the world.
    Make peace.

    And it’s the truth.

  373. bibelverse
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    Buddhists sin like everyone else and in my opinion no one goes two years without sinning.
    Our motives and thoughts, not to mention our speech and deeds are very often sinful. No one is a special class of man that doesn’t sin. Let’s open our ears to the truth that we sin very very frequently. It’s not horrible to find this out but absolutely vital.

    Michael, acknowledge that you are a sinner and welcome the sinless Son of God to teaxh you.

  374. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Gnade,

    Jesus said it’s not what comes into a person (thoughts, impulses) that defiles a person but rather what comes out (word and deed). This is why we can rightly smile at any impure thoughts and let them go away without them affecting our words or our deeds.

    All the bible stuff that I talk about I am unsure of. It is merely an interpretation amongst many interpretations. If I have offended anyone I apologize. I don’t purport to know the meaning of anything in the bible. It is a very confusing book.

    Take care.

  375. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    And I’m not Jewish either so I have no concept of the Sabbath day. To me the best day is a day off from work and doing good and fun things in life. Really.

    Take care.

  376. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    I said:

    “And I’m not Jewish either so I have no concept of the Sabbath day. To me the best day is a day off from work and doing good and fun things in life. Really”.

    It should say:

    “And I’m not religious either so I have no concept of the Sabbath day. To me the best day is a day off from work and doing good and fun things in life. Really”.

    Take care.

  377. bibelverse
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Greetings!

    What defiles God’s creation?

    The Son of God said in Mathew 15:11
    11 Not that which goeth into the mouth (food eaten with unwashed hands) defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

    What comes out of a man when he speaks? Often it is impure words. These defile us. The speaking of impure words provides evidence that we have all sinned before the LORD.

    The only exception is the sinless Son of God who only ever thought, spoke and acted purely. Truly He is worthy to be worshippped in spirit and truth.

    Jesus said in Mathew 15:18

    But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

    19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

  378. bibelverse
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you totally misuderstand how dangerous impure thoughts are.

    David prayed for a clean heart. If you are desirous to act wisely you will pray to the LORD who reveals Himself in the holy Bible for purer thinking.
    Ask Him to teach you that the holy Bible is a pure book.

  379. MichaelFree
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    It is not a misunderstanding of impure thoughts to say to “let them go away” and to not let them make us depressed and to not let them affect our words or our deeds done towards other people.

    The present world is an impure thought machine. To let the impurity go away and out of our lives is healthy.

    I’ve never accepted that God ever supported the murder of people, the rape of women, the torture of souls, and numerous other bad things. If I did I would be thinking impurely. I only attribute pure words and deeds to righteousness and to the possibility of deity.

    This is my last comment.

    I’m sickened by this process.

    Take care.

  380. Gnade
    Posted March 30, 2015 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Well done Michael. This was one of your most honest comments.
    The LORD of the holy Bible is the righteousness that you should be hungering and thirsting for. Do that wholeheartedly and you will be truly blessed.

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    Is there Evidence for God? Conversations with Wesley Steinbrink

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