Morality is Objective, like a Pair of Scales: Another Fatal Flaw in Dr. Craig’s Moral Argument for God

There is a pervasive confusion about the meaning of morality shared by believers and skeptics alike. Theists typically assert that nothing could be “really” right or wrong without an authority – a God – to define it as such. Atheists often accept this premise and so conclude there is no objective morality. Meanwhile, neither side has said a single word about what morality actually entails. They don’t seem to notice that morality is based fundamentally on concepts like fairness, equity, and justice which are objectively defined and measurable properties.

Lady Justice

Lady Justice

What determines if something is just or unjust? The answer flows immediately from the definition of the word. Here are some representative samples from various dictionaries on the net:

JUST (adj)

  1. Guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness
  2. Done or made according to principle; equitable
  3. Conforming to high moral standards; honest
  4. Having a basis in or conforming to fact or reason
  5. Fair or impartial in action or judgment

Justice is grounded in reason, rationality, truth, and fairness. For a judgment to be just it must correspond to reality which is why it is objective (as opposed to subjective). Justice, fairness, and equality all lie at the root of our moral intuitions. Indeed, the word iniquity is based on the Latin root iniquitas which literally denotes unequalnessunevennessinjustice. Something is just and moral if it is equitable, fair, reasonable, impartial. It is an objective property no different than the objective fact that two authentic coins of the same denomination have the same weight. That is why Lady Justice, an allegorical personification of the moral force in judicial systems, is pictured with a scale. Nothing is more objective than a scale. She wears a blindfold because justice must be impartial and objective, which means she ignores any factors not specifically relevant to the thing being judged (weighed, in the metaphor of the scales).

Morality is grounded in rationality and so is, by its very nature, objective. It is taught to children throughout the world in some form of the Golden Rule which tells us how to tap into our moral intuitions by putting ourselves in the place of the other. This helps us be impartial and fair and promotes mercy, compassion, kindness, and empathy. The Golden Rule stands “in light of its own reason” as explained by Professor R. M. MacIver in his article The Deep Beauty of the Golden Rule (provided online by Google Books):

Do to others as you would have others do to you. This is the only rule that stands by itself in the light of its own reason, the only rule that can stand by itself in the naked, warring universe, in the face of the contending values of men and groups.

Rationality and the Golden Rule are the foundation of morality as explained in my articles The Golden Rule and the Foundation of Objective Morality and The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality. See also my wife’s article, Justice: The Root of Morality, on her blog GodAndButterfly.net.

The Moral Argument for the Existence of God

On page 172 of his book Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics Dr. William Lane Craig stated his Moral Argument for God as follows:

  1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
  2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
  3. Therefore, God exists.

His argument is immediately susceptible to Euthyphro’s dilemma: Is something morally good because God says so, or does God say so because it is morally good? The first possibility implies morality is arbitrary, while the second implies it is objectively true independent of God. Either horn of this dilemma destroys Craig’s moral argument so he needed to find a third option which he developed in his article Euthyphro Dilemma Once More where he splits the horns by asserting that “God’s moral nature is the paradigm of goodness; what is good or bad is determined by conformity or lack thereof to His nature.” Craig asserts that there would be no meaning to words like “good, just, true, or fair” if there were no God. He then presents this question by a reader “James”:

If God’s nature rejects the raping of little children, but it is not an arbitrary rejection (rejected for no reasons), then would this not mean that God’s nature is good in accordance with good reasons? In other words, can we not say that God’s nature is necessarily opposed to the rape of children BECAUSE in every possible world it causes injustice and injury to the victim (i.e. good reasons)?

Here is how Craig responded:

I’d respond that there certainly can be reasons for what God commands. For example, He forbids raping little children because it would be unjust and injurious to them. But then the deeper question is, “Why is it wrong to cause injury to innocent persons? What determines what is just or unjust?” Eventually such questions must find a stopping point in the character of God. Kindness is good because that’s the way God is; cruelty is evil because it is inconsistent with God’s nature. Therefore He issues commands that forbid behavior which is cruel and prescribe behavior which is kind. Rape is cruel, not kind, and therefore it is forbidden by God and therefore wrong.

Craig’s question “What determines what is just or unjust?” exposes the rank absurdity of his assertions. He appears to be profoundly ignorant of the meaning of basic moral terms like “just” and “fair”. As a supposed “philosopher” such ignorance is inexcusable. The job of a philosopher is to take concepts like justice and unpack them in terms of things that are commonly understood, such as a scale which is a universal symbol of justice. His assertion that we could not determine the difference between just and unjust without ultimately appealing to God is as ridiculous as saying that scales would cease to function if God did not exist. Likewise, we need not appeal to any God to understand why it is wrong to rape children. Craig addressed this point as follows:

You rejoin, “Must we conclude that the reasons to not rape (unloving, unjust) would cease to exist if there was no transcendent, necessarily, good nature in existence?” Yes, in the sense that in the absence of God it’s not evident that cruelty would be wrong. Activity that looks very much like rape goes on all the time in the animal kingdom but without any moral dimension to the act. On atheism that’s all we are—just animals, relatively advanced primates, and it’s hard to see why human activity should have the moral dimension that is missing from the activity of other animals. So while rape in the absence of God would still be injurious, cruel, and demeaning, there wouldn’t be anything, so far as I can see, that would make an action having those properties morally wrong. One could try to defend some sort of atheistic moral Platonism, I suppose, but then one must answer my three-fold critique of Atheistic Moral Realism in Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview.

Craig said that “it’s hard to see why human activity should have the moral dimension that is missing from the activity of other animals.” This is the fundamental flaw in his moral argument. He falsely asserts that humans would be nothing but animals under atheism, as if we would lose all human capacities of language and logic if there were no God. He repeats this error in almost every presentation of his moral argument. He usually puts on a very pained look on his face, and whines on and on about how he just can’t “see” how, under atheism,  humans would have a “moral dimension.” I addressed this error in gruesome detail in my article Why Most Animals are not Philosophers: Fatal Flaws in Dr. Craig’s Moral Argument. There is no excuse for Craig’s continued error on this point. He is simply incorrigible. He has been corrected by many professional philosophers, as seen, for example, in this clip from his debate with Shelly Kagan:

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80 Comments

  1. David
    Posted December 24, 2013 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    The argument that atheists don’t have a moral compass is empirically false. Does anybody know an atheist who doesn’t believe certain things are right and wrong? Is there even one example? Some of the most thoughtful and generous people I know are atheists, but even those who aren’t so nice have some set of values whether or not you agree with them.

    Even a Christian ought to believe that all people have a moral compass. They ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, allowing them to be like God and knowing right from wrong.

    Also, if knowing them by their fruits is a meaningful litmus test (as it ought to be for any Christian), then any individual atheist’s moral code could simply be determined by the fruit of their actions.

    Honestly, some of the creepiest people I’ve met who did some ghastly things in private were Christians who encouraged me in my youth to become a believer so I wouldn’t go to hell. So it really colors my view on the subject. I never met the example of an atheist who said, “Great, no values, I’m just going to freestyle it today!” It’s a unicorn – it only exists in concept, not in reality.

  2. Posted December 24, 2013 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    As an Atheist, I follow a moral code because I feel that it is right to do so, not for promise of some reward (Heaven) or fear of punishment (Hell) if I don’t.

  3. Dean Fraser
    Posted December 25, 2013 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Hi Richard
    The moral argument for the existence of BibleGod was one of the principal reasons I decided to give Christianity another shot. I was searching for the answer to the question – ‘does BibleGod exist’ and was reading about the moral argument which at its centre has BibleGod as the reference point for morality.
    I am unsure if it is still used today but in previous generations (according to the movies I have watched) a witness in a court of law was required to put their hand on the bible and say that they would tell the whole truth. Society was using BbileGod’s truth as a reference point for telling the truth. Without that oath the witness could more easily re-frame what took place according to their own reference point, to compartmentalise their statements with a new reality that suited them.
    As CS Lewis wrote “If no set of moral ideas were true or better than any other, there would be no sense on preferring civilised morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality.” You and I are not able to claim that one view of morality is any better than any other view unless we have an ‘absolute’ reference point .

  4. Posted December 25, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    You and I are not able to claim that one view of morality is any better than any other view unless we have an ‘absolute’ reference point .

    Hey there Dean,

    Thanks for sharing your point of view. Could you explain how the Bible or BibleGod could provide any “absolute” reference point for anything? Believers cannot agree about what the Bible actually says, and everyone has their own opinions of about the nature of the BibleGod and the morality he demands. So I have no idea why you would think that either could give anything like an “absolute reference point” for anything.

    The best that we humans can do is to strive to have an accurate view of objectively verifiable reality. That’s called “science” and is based on logic and facts, reason and evidence. It is what proves the Bible and its God to be false.

    As for the CS Lewis quote – nothing could be more absurd. Anyone with half a moral brain could explain why “Nazi morality” is immoral. And for that matter, “Christian morality” (as presented by Christian apologists such as William Lane Craig) is fundamentally immoral because it teaches that nothing is actually right or wrong in itself, but would only be so because God says so.

    Finally, I cannot imagine how anyone could think that the Moral Argument for God could prove the Christian God because the Christian God condoned slavery, commanded genocide, and taught gross sexism. Read Numebrs 31 where God commanded that slaughter of every man, woman, and child except for 32,000 sexy virgins that were then distributed to the very men still dripping with the blood of their families. And you should take a look at this debate between atheist Hector Avalos and Christian Keith Darrel. The Christian could not affirm that genocide was immoral!

    All the best,

    Richard

  5. Posted December 28, 2013 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    David, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn’t allow anyone to be like God and know right from wrong. That is what Satan, the father of lies teaches. However, God, the God of the Bible, who is good, can teach us to discern right from wrong!

    Blessings,

    Reine Gnade

  6. Posted December 29, 2013 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    David, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn’t allow anyone to be like God and know right from wrong. That is what Satan, the father of lies teaches. However, God, the God of the Bible, who is good, can teach us to discern right from wrong!

    Then why does the Bible quote God as saying “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” after he ate from the tree?

  7. David
    Posted December 29, 2013 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Hi Reine, I second Richard’s response. My interpretation of Genesis 2:17 is God himself calls it “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. I am not knowledgeable about Hebrew though, so my ability to really understand these passages (particularly any use of Elohim) is quite limited.

    At any rate, it would appear Satan didn’t lie about this issue given that Adam and Eve saw their nakedness after eating the fruit and became modest.

    I don’t think it’s difficult to develop morals. It mainly consists of not wanting people to suffer but rather wanting them to be happy. That’s why atheists don’t struggle to develop morality. Actually, most animals seem to have decent morals and compassion as well – it simply comes naturally.

    If somebody is acting puzzled that a non-Christian is capable of morals and values, they are either completely out of touch with normal people and living in a bubble, or they are faking it.

  8. Posted December 29, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Excellent points David. Especially your comment about animal morals. There are some good videos out there demonstrating that animals have a sense of fairness and empathy, such as this TED talk.

    I have become convinced that dogmatic religions tend to actually corrupt, rather than promote, good morals. This is because people are taught that nothing is really good or bad in and of itself, but only because God says so. They are taught that morality is obedience, which is why Hitler could raise his Christian army and use them to commit genocide. If they were in touch with their true moral intuitions, they never could have committed such atrocities.

    There is a famous quote from Steven Weinberg that pretty much sums up religion’s contribution to morality:

    Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.~ Steven Weinberg

  9. Posted December 30, 2013 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    David writes:
    At any rate, it would appear Satan didn’t lie about this issue given that Adam and Eve saw their nakedness after eating the fruit and became modest.

    Reine replies:
    Yes David, Adam and Eve became aware that they were naked not just physically but spiritually. This realisation made them “hide” from the person who loved them. That’s what sin does it makes us ‘hide’ from God who is the source of love.

    Adam and Eve didn’t become modest. They became conscious for the first time in their lives that they were naked and clothed themselves with fig leaves. God taught them that man can’t cover his nakedness and gave them His own choice of covering. Man ought to look to Christ as his covering, for He is righteous.

    Satan seeks to undo the work of God (Mark 4:15) and cause evil (John 13:2, 27). He is the father of lies (John 8:44) and the deceiver (Revelation 12:9).

    Genesis 3
    22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

    Adam and Eve previously had no awareness of evil. Now they do. Sinners lack, unlike God, the discernment often to discern good from evil.

    Satan says in his heart I will make myself like the Most High. ( See Isaiah 14:14). This is rebellion against God.

    In the future, there will be a judgment where the devil will be cast out :

    “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Rev. 12:9).

    God bless you Richard and Rose and may 2014 be a very productive year for you both.

    Reine Gnade

  10. Posted December 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard! Hitlers’ army wasn’t a Christian army. Christ’s faithful army of believers desire to heal not harm.

    Man is capable of atrocities long before he arms himself with weapons of warfare. God, the God of the Bible,offers Himself to us as a teacher of righteousness. It is because of His gracious intervention in our lives that we have the opportunity to grow more loving. He can keep us safe from embracing the way of violence.

  11. Posted December 31, 2013 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard! Hitlers’ army wasn’t a Christian army. Christ’s faithful army of believers desire to heal not harm.

    Hi Reine,

    Hitler’s army would have disagreed with you. They most definitely thought of themselves as “Christian”. Of course, many Christians looking back at their atrocities would say that is prima facie evidence that they were not “really” Christian, but that’s just the No True Scotsman fallacy. I have never seen any way to distinguish between “true Christians” and anyone else. If you say that you judge them by their fruits, then you must admit that atheists are equally moral, so that doesn’t work.

    Man is capable of atrocities long before he arms himself with weapons of warfare. God, the God of the Bible,offers Himself to us as a teacher of righteousness. It is because of His gracious intervention in our lives that we have the opportunity to grow more loving. He can keep us safe from embracing the way of violence.

    That doesn’t make any sense to me at all. God commanded horrific genocide in the Bible. And worse, he commanded that every man, woman, and child of the Midianites be slaughtered, except 32,000 sexy virgins that were then distributed the the very soldiers who had just slaughtered their mothers, fathers, sisters, and brothers (Numbers 31). The idea that the God of the Bible is “gracious” or “loving” is directly contradicted by how the Bible describes him. Sorry. But these are the facts.

    I know it is very difficult to accept the truth, but be encouraged, because the truth will set you free!

    All the best,

    Richard

  12. Posted December 31, 2013 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Yes David, Adam and Eve became aware that they were naked not just physically but spiritually. This realisation made them “hide” from the person who loved them. That’s what sin does it makes us ‘hide’ from God who is the source of love.

    I agree that “sin” – or more specifically, a sense of guilt – makes people hide from others, but that does not mean that their eyes were not opened or that they did not gain the knowledge of good and evil and become “like God”. The Bible quotes God as saying that’s exactly what happened: “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” (Genesis 3:22) Do you deny this verse?

    And what makes you think that God loved them? He placed a temptation in the Garden and then left them alone with the Serpent who deceived them. Is it not obvious that God’s plan was that they would eat so he could curse them and cause all the pain in the history of the world? I’m glad the story is just a myth. It would be horrible if God were really like that. And while we are talking about the Garden story, have you ever noticed that it is not mentioned again anywhere in the entire OT? But then it is suddenly very prominent in the Apocrypha and the NT. What does that imply? I discuss this question in my article Where’s Adam? The Mystery of the Missing Mythological Chapters of Genesis.

    God bless you Richard and Rose and may 2014 be a very productive year for you both.

    Thanks for the kind thoughts Reine.

    All the best,

    Richard

  13. Posted January 3, 2014 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard, you hold to the view that they gained. I hold to the view that they lost. Sin always brings forth loss, for anyone who disobeys God and is deceived by Satan suffers loss!

    This can be seen, for example, when a husband or wife is unfaithful. Loss of trust results when the wrong sinful behaviour comes to light.

    Their eyes were “opened” but this didn’t make them more discerning between what is good and what is evil. That blessing can only be granted by God to man, for He is the source of wisdom and knowledge. The Giver of life is sinless and when we sin against Him it impacts disadvanteously, never advantageously, on all our relationships!

    God bless you,

    Reine Gnade

  14. Posted January 3, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard,

    God “knows” about evil but there is no evil in Him. He is good! After man sins God’s plan is to draw sinners to Jesus whose speech and deeds have no evil in them. He longs to take us on a journey of resisting evil and saying “Yes” to speaking and doing good. For this to happen we must welcome Him as our teacher!

    God bless you,

    Reine Gnade

  15. Posted January 4, 2014 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Hey there Reine,

    I understand that you like to think that God is good. But that’s not how the Bible portrays him. On the contrary, the Bible portrays him as irrational and cruel. It merely asserts that he is good but then it directly contradicts itself by saying that he commanded the slaughter of every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except 32,000 sexy virgins who were then distributed to the soldiers still dripping with the blood of their mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. How can you say he is good?

    All the best,

    Richard

  16. Posted January 4, 2014 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard!
    Goodness is an attribute of love and God is love.
    Someone can only say God is good with confidence and conviction if they have experienced good from Him. God not only bears witness that He is good but I have been a continual recipient of His goodness.

    God bless you.

    Reine Gnade

  17. Posted January 7, 2014 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Reine,

    How do you tell the difference between things that just happen (like they do to everyone) and the “goodness” that comes from God? And how do you know it is not Allah or Vishnu that is the one who is showering you with blessing?

    All the best,

    Richard

  18. Posted January 7, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard. I really appreciate you asking these questions. The best starting point to learn what good is is to start with the person Jesus: His life, words and deeds.

    He is the good Sheherd. He is the source of all goodness and the wisest decision that anyone can make is to say “Yes” to Jesus as Their teacher.

    God guided me to do this over two decades ago and in the years that have followed Christ has totally transformed how I speak, think an act.

    My prayer Richard is that you and Rose will put more of your focus on the life, words and deeds of Jesus in 2014. If you do I know that your sincere efforts will be rewarded by the Giver of life with growth in faith, hope and love.

    May God continue to bless you both as you seek to do that which is good and glorifies His pure name.

    Reine Gnade

  19. Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    Hi Reine,

    Yes, I know that you believe in Jesus, just like a Muslim believes in Allah. That wasn’t my question. My questions were these: How do you tell the difference between things that just happen (like they do to everyone) and the “goodness” that comes from God? And how do you know it is not Allah or Vishnu that is the one who is showering you with blessing?

    Thanks!

    Richard

  20. Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard!
    How do I know that the faith, hope and love that I have been blessed with doesn’t come from Allah of the Koran or any other God?

    My grounds for believing what I do is the faithful witness of the God of the Old and New Testament. He can’t lie and He states that He uniquely is the only true God.

    Additionally I have studied the teachings of the god of the Koran and find his way of thinking unmerciful. The other god you mention is from Hinduism. I reject Hinduism, as I also reject Islam, as it doesn’t teach about the unique life, words and deeds of the Messiah.

    The God of the Bible loves you!

    Reine Gnade

  21. Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Reine,

    You said “My grounds for believing what I do is the faithful witness of the God of the Old and New Testament. He can’t lie and He states that He uniquely is the only true God.” Well, there’s a little problem there. It’s called “circular logic.” Have you ever heard of this concept before? It goes like this:

    Muslim: The Koran states that Allah is the true God and cannot lie!

    Christian: But why believe the Koran?

    Muslim: Because it was inspired by Allah, and Allah cannot lie!

    Get it? I can’t see any difference between your belief in the Bible and a Muslim’s belief in the Koran.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

  22. Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Richard and Rose!

    The witness of the God of the Bible is true, whereas the witness of the god of the Koran is false. Any god that lies about the very nature of the real God and disputes His version of history on every crucial point is only worthy of being rejected.

    Richard, you say you can find no differences between the god of the Koran and the God of the Bible.
    Here is a very important difference, The God of the Bible loves you and Rose even though you have rebelled against Him. He longs to draw you both to Christ and give you both the best present that is possible – His very presence and pure holy companionship.

    This gracious person longs to impart to you both His blessing of wisdom, knowledge and happiness and to so bless you both that you become more loving.

    On the other hand Allah, the false god of the Koran has a hatred for all those who refuse to bow down before him. He is a liar through and through. He is unmerciful and unloving and no truth abides in him, for he is a servant of Satan, the Father of lies.

    Richard and Rose, come to Jesus for He is the light of the world. He has a loving heart and longs to purify you.

    Enjoy your Bible studies together!

    Reine Gnade

  23. Posted January 11, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Reine,

    I get the impression you don’t understand the concept of circular reasoning and why it is not a valid way to establish what is true. When you say that the “witness of the God of the Bible is true” you are merely telling me your opinion. I would get a very different opinion from a Muslim. Why should I believe your opinion over theirs? You have not yet explained why you believe the Bible is true.

    It is also strange that you say “Allah, the false god of the Koran has a hatred for all those who refuse to bow down before him”. How can he hate anyone if he is not real? Are you saying that he is a real being pretending to be God? And what about the God of the Bible? He says he will destroy anyone who refuses to bow down to him too. So how is he different than Allah?

    All the best,

    Richard

  24. Posted January 12, 2014 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Greetings Richard!
    Allah, the false god of the Koran isn’t a true being as we understand the word. This “false god” recorded in the Koran exists only on paper and not in real substance. But such is his arrogance that He doesn’t pretend but claim to be the one true God of creation.

    Richard, the god of the Koran only exists on paper. He is a creation of Satan. However he exists in a sense when people start believing what he teaches. When for instance Christians or any other people are unjustly persecuted by those who claim to believe in Allah of the Koran Satan is worshipped even if the people doing the persecution claim not to believe in him.

    To recap Allah, the god of the Koran, is only a false god that exists on paper but as soon as someone starts putting his unmerciful teachings into practice they start manifesting unmerciful behaviour because Satan is real and his spirit is unmerciful.

    Only the God of the Bible is real and good.

    God bless you!

  25. Posted January 12, 2014 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Greetings Richard!
    The only valid way to establish what ultimate truth is for it to be revealed to us by the God of the Bible who reveals truth. Jesus is the truth. Man needs only to look to Him. When I say that the “witness of the God of the Bible is true” I am not merely telling you my opinion but imparting to you the truth. I know you would get a very different opinion from a Muslim but they are in error. Why should you believe my opinion over theirs? The answer is obvious. I’m telling the truth and they are deceived.

    Richard, you say that I have not yet explained why I believe the Bible is true. I not only know that the Bible is true but that Jesus is the Author of truth. I experience His transforming, healing love every moment of my life.

    Richard, your approach and endeavor to find fault with the God of the Bible will not help but hinder your spiritual progress. Instead you should go to Mathew 6:33 and read what it says! Remember unless you and Rose decide to seek Jesus who is the King of God’s kingdom you will fail to glorify God.

    I encourage you both to visit my website for that is a useful place for you both to visit. May God bless you with a desire to turn to Jesus and acknowledge Him as the sinless Son of God.

    God loves you!

    Reine Gnade

  26. David
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Reine: I not only know that the Bible is true but that Jesus is the Author of truth. I experience His transforming, healing love every moment of my life.

    If this is the litmus test for determining truth, then any Muslim who has experience this feeling has no reason to believe in Jesus. Furthermore, a Christian who hasn’t experienced this love has no basis to believe in Jesus. That doesn’t make sense to me – didn’t even Jesus suffer? Didn’t he feel forsaken by his father? It seems like Jesus himself doesn’t have a basis to believe in himself.

    I think truth should be simply based on whether something is so or not. That keeps it simple – that’s the human use of the word. A person can’t be truth almost by definition.

  27. Michael
    Posted February 18, 2014 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Morality is objective! You look for the liar and you look for the one who broke agreement! You are love and truth, other people are agreement. Other people are love and truth, and you are agreement. You are love, truth, and agreement and so are other people.

    You are your own accuser! You are your own redeemer!

    When you are born again your body has become the temple and within it is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark is your heart and that which precedes from the heart, your words and your deeds, determine whether or not we are part of God or separated from God. When we separate ourselves from God, though lying and non-agreement, the only way back is through truth and forgiveness, and then finding a way to not fail that same way again.

    This explains it all, you either do truth or do hypocrisy. Jesus said “all things whatsoever that men should do to you do to them likewise: this is the law and the prophets (The Indisputable Kingdom of God)”:

    *****

    What you want done to yourself do for other people also. Ask anyone in the world two questions. Do you prefer to be told the truth or to be told lies? Do you prefer that people do things to you either with or without your agreement? Everyone on Earth answers the two questions the same way. We all love truth and agreement to be done to us. Before you speak you have two choices and before your actions you have two more. You can either tell the truth or tell lies and you can either do things to other people that are based on agreement or not based on agreement at all. One path is truth and the other is hypocrisy. The True Golden Rule is truth and not hypocrisy. Follow through on truth, so when and where you can, what you would want done for yourself in a similar situation ask other people in that situation if they want it done for them also, and then if they agree, do it. Men and women, those who are religious and those who are not, all races and nationalities, those who are heterosexual and those who are homosexual, all harm no one and do The True Golden Rule. If you harm them based on their group identity then it is you that is wrong.

    A belief, such as a religion, is just a belief and is neither true or false, but The True Golden Rule is not a belief at all, and therefore is just truth. If someone steals something that is not theirs and then calls it their own, then it is a lie and will not stand because the owner does not agree to the trespass.

    *****
    For the reader: if you knew what was before your eyes, you would be amazed. I suspect it goes in one ear and out the other, but that is just fine. One day I suspect the whole world will read the same thing, as it is the Tree of Life, and the little book, but it has another paragraph which cannot be shown yet.

    “Jesus said, Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man.” You see religious texts ask the reader to decide “what is good” and “what is bad” and then to make a choice, but the time is coming when it will be known “this is good” and “this is bad” and then we’ll have a real choice.

    In the story of Adam and Eve they learned lying from the serpent, then they broke agreement with God that they wouldn’t eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. It was an ordinary tree. Their sins were lying and breaking agreement, having only known truth and agreement before they serpent came along. Sure they had become like God, knowing good and evil, so the serpent didn’t lie there, but he also said that they surely would not die, which was a big lie. God then says, for fear that the man and woman eat also of the Tree of Life, they were expelled, and left to find out what the Tree of Life is on their own. You see, God knows what good and evil are, but he only does good (Tree of Life). And Jesus said that a goal reached as a result of lying and non-agreement is a goal built on sand but the goal reached as a result of truth and agreement is a goal built on a rock. When the winds and the rains come the goal built on sand withers and dies but the goal built on a rock withstands and lives.

    Love, Truth, and Agreement are the processes of the Creator, and lying and doing non-agreement are the processes of the destructor.

  28. Michael
    Posted February 18, 2014 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    In the Parable of the Samaritan the person robbed on the road could of been anyone on Earth. A Jew, Muslim, and Christian could of walked by not helping that person at all, but an atheist who stops and helps and makes sure the person got the care they needed was “neighbor” to that person in need. Jesus tells us that we are to “love thy neighbor as thyself”, and this includes the atheist, and therefore God judges the atheist and the religious person exactly the same, which is by words and deeds.

    You see an atheist is who 1. tells the truth in words 2. does agreement in actions 3. helps people in need 4. is humble and knows that she is not better than anyone else 5. and who asks for forgiveness when they have failed and gives forgiveness when it is asked for, does the first half of the original ten commandments, of which the other half says not to do the opposite of the first five.

    Jesus said “Blessed is he who was before he came into being. If you become disciples to me (and) listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For you have five trees in Paradise which do not change, either in summer or in winter, and their leaves do not fall. He who knows them shall not taste of death”.

    One true God, which is truth, and truth is that innocent person in prison who bows before the truth. The five things above. Expressed as three things: love, truth, and agreement.

    153.

    And Peter fishes on the wrong side of the boat to this day. All the Peters say that Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me”, and so be afraid, be a Christian or go to hell, even if you become a fake Christian who makes a false agreement to be Christian because of fear, that that is good enough. But no, Jesus said “I am the way (love), the truth (truth), and the life (agreement)(remember Adam and Eve and the goal built on sand), no person comes to the Creator but by the Creators processes, being love, truth, and agreement”.

    You see Jesus said that God is a Spirit. That Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in him. The Son of God is the Spirit of God.

    Good thoughts (way, love), good words (truth, truth), and good deeds (life, agreement).

    Hell is not a place. It’s a condition. We are not supposed to bring hell with us when we go to heaven. We’re supposed to learn the Golden Rule while we are here on Earth.

    Anyone who thinks that God is an eternal torturer has not spoken love. Anyone who says that a good atheist goes to hell but that a bad so-called “Christian” goes to heaven, has found the anti-Christ in Jesus and that is the problem with parables. If read with a pure heart then the Gospels are pure indeed (with a few glaring exceptions) but if read with a not so pure heart then the Gospels are for the taking.

    Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John present choices, we are to choose that Jesus is either the Christ or the anti-Christ. The majority have decided that the anti-Christ is the Christ. You gotta wonder what the exact nature of the Lord of the Harvest is seeing that Jesus would use words such as “Satan” and “Devil”, giving a name to an being giving it life, or that most of Jesus’ followers have found the anti-Christ to be Christ, or that Jesus talks about an end times cookbook that must happen before the second coming, an evil Caiaphas end times cookbook, where there surely are many evil Caiaphas’ today, who want to test the validity of whether or not God exists. Caiaphas may have had special knowledge that Jesus would be put to death and that the two flocks would become one fold, but he stood by and watched them beat Jesus while having the nerve to ask Jesus about his doctrine and his disciples. Caiaphas’ hands were not clean. His words and deeds convict him.

  29. Posted February 19, 2014 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Greetings David!
    I do know that God can rescue Muslims, so that they are no longer Muslims but a new creation in Christ!
    Before this can happen they must be drawn by our heavenly Father to Christ. Much cleansing of the mind and heart is necessary for this to happen but for God, the God of the Bible, nothing is impossible.

    Let’s not underestimate the colossal challenge for someone who currently unwisely believes in the false god, the Allah of the Koran, for believing in the real Jesus is very challenging and multitudes who attend churches worldwide do not do this.

    David, everyone who is a true Christian has experienced the love of God. Yes, Jesus suffered. He not only felt forsaken, He was forsaken.

    Jesus has and had every basis to believe He was the Son of the God because that is who He was. Finally, God defines what truth is in the Bible and Jesus describes Himself as the truth in John 14:6.
    May God bless you David with an even deeper interest in trusting and obeying Him!

  30. MichaelFree
    Posted March 16, 2014 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Oh @Reine Gnade, you do dishonor good Muslims the world over. You say that there goodness in not done in the spirit and presence of God. God owns goodness. All who do goodness do so in the spirit and presence of God.

    If you deny goodness being done in the spirit and presence of God, then you deny the Holy Ghost.

  31. Posted May 3, 2014 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Michael, you write that I am dishonoring good Muslims the world over! On the contrary I am bringing the truth very gently to people who are worshipping a false god. Clearly your teaching isn’t biblical because only the LORD is good!

    Muslims according to the Bible are sinners. And yes, all Muslims have fallen short of the glory of God.

    There are multitudes of Muslims that do “good” deeds, but that doesn’t save someone or make them good in God’s eyes. The Bible teaches that righteousness exalts a nation.

    Muslims, reject Allah who lies about the true Jesus! Decide in 2014 to look for the true Son of God. You can find His trustworthy words in the Bible. Unlike Allah He is love!

  32. MichaelFree
    Posted May 4, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You said “clearly your teaching isn’t biblical because only the Lord is good”.

    When I tell you there are good people in the world I am telling you that their goodness happens when they are part of God. Whenever anyone speaks the truth it is done in the Spirit and presence of God (John 3:21). A liar separates themselves from the Spirit and presence of God, A dedicated truth teller walks with God because they are good whenever they speak the truth, and this includes atheists and Muslims. While God can be said to be good because God is good always, it is not inaccurate to say that people are being good when they say and do good things.

    Listen to Jesus tell the rich young man that he is saved by works, not by faith: Matthew 19 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    Every commandment Jesus told the rich young man were WORKS. He left out the first four commandments which are about faith.

    The sheep and the goats are separated by works. Read the parable.

    The light and the darkness are works. Read the parable.

    Only a church that wants to curry favor with mammon pretends that works don’t matter and that faith alone is enough, and faith to their denomination. Oh, how the tribes of the Earth are going to mourn!

    How do you look at good Muslims and good atheists and have pity on them instead of seeing their goodness and rejoicing? How do you not see their goodness for what it is? You are blinded like the Pharisees who say that only Jews are saved, but rather in your blindness you say that only Christians are saved, for you ask the same question that the Pharisees had the nerve to ask “who is my neighbor”? For you think that your neighbor is only other Christians. Jesus said your neighbor is the person who does GOOD WORKS, or haven’t you read the Parable of the Good Samaritan which describes who we are to love as ourselves?

  33. Reine Gnade
    Posted May 5, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Michael!

    Jesus didn’t tell the rich young man that he is saved by works, not by faith. No one is saved by works. Such a teaching is Satanic. The Bible teaches very differently. It teaches that the just shall live by faith and that without faith it is impossible to please God. Notice the adjective impossible!

    Our neighbors are everyone in the world whether they believe in the God of the Bible or don’t believe in Him.
    Only Christians are saved because Jesus said no one can come to the Father except through Him!

    Jesus never leaves out anything. Faith is foundational, for without faith it is impossible to please God. This is why an Atheist or a Muslim can’t please God. Someone with a non existent faith or a false faith can’t please God!

    Enjoy your day!

  34. MichaelFree
    Posted May 7, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You said “No one is saved by works. Such a teaching is Satanic”.

    So when Jesus says to tell the truth and not to lie, which is a work, you’re saying that it is satanic?

    The only thing “satanic” is teaching that a liar can lie all they want as long as they profess their faith in Jesus Christ.

    John 14:21 Jesus said “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”.

    Jesus in John 14:21 says that by keeping the commandments (works) you love him and God. This is very clear. How can a liar willfully lie and still say they love Christ and are saved by him? It’s a mockery what the church has done to Jesus’ own words.

    Do you call your priest “father” or “pope”, because if you do, you make a mockery of Jesus’ own commandment (works) to not call anyone on Earth that pretends to be in between humans and God “rabbi” or “father”.

    I’ve had enough of arguing about religion. You can go ahead and view Jesus as the leader of an exclusive club where the most kind and generous and upright people who are not part of the exclusive club go to hell. Yet your club sucks and God knows it. Jesus said to call him friend and not Lord and yet how many still call him Lord? How many still call priests ‘father’?

  35. MichaelFree
    Posted May 7, 2014 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I apologize for using the word “satanic” is my conversation with you. That is an abominable word that refers to an invisible fear sucking bogeyman that is an unfortunate part of finding the way of righteousness. A little bit of love and a lot of righteous anger kills the fear.

    There is more than one way to read the Gospels. It is according to the reader’s heart how one hears the Gospels when they read them.

    If you hear that you must be of the Christian faith to be saved and that works do not matter, that is your heart that chooses that interpretation, is is not the Gospels fault.

    I was raised to judge everyone the same way. It is in my blood. So later in life when I finally read the Gospels some say I am to learn from the Gospels to judge people who are not Christian differently than what I know is right and true already. Yet I would be asked to judge wrongly. The Gospels did not make me a worse person but rather they made me better. I’m now committed to always speaking the truth and always respecting other people’s right to agreement in my actions that affect them or their property. I help people in need when and where I can. And when I mess up I ask for forgiveness. The Gospels made me better, not worse. My words and my deeds are righteous. I go to bed and wake up with a clean slate. To get rid of the bogeymen and call every being friend and not lord is powerful. To understand judgment is to understand yourself, and to realize that everyone else is yourself, and there is no separation between men and women, those who are religious and those who are atheists, people of all races and nationalities, and heterosexuals and homosexuals.

    The groups of the world have always been here. They will always be here. Make peace with them and make peace with God. They are God’s creation and yet the people of the world judged wrongly. They condemned good people without cause. They said their gender was cause. They said their religion was cause. They said their atheism was cause. They said their race was cause. They said their sexuality was cause. Yet they knew not cause because the cause of all that is unjust comes from their very hands, the ones who would judge the groups of the world differently than themselves, that they thought they were special in some magical unmeasurable way, and thus they could lay hands on the innocent and say that they were guilty and yet it was themselves that were guilty all along.

    And that is what your interpretation of the Gospels says: that God lays his hands on good people (people who are being good) who are not Christians and sends them right to hell.

    When I look at Muslims or atheists I see their smile, their beauty no matter what they look like, their humanity, their helping other people in need, and I don’t see them with scorn. I don’t see them as “less than” or “unfortunate”. For all I know their sins could be nothing compared to my stack. I’m humbled before all good people, as it should be.

  36. MichaelFree
    Posted May 8, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    When Jesus told the Parable of the Good Samaritan it was in response to the Jewish lawyer who asked him “who is my neighbor” (in “love thy neighbor as thyself”), as if it wasn’t obvious that all people are your neighbors, not just the Jews.

    This is powerful and it says that we are judged by our words and by our deeds and not by our religion. Now I grew up this way but I thank Jesus Christ for showing me that it also comes from God, what I like to call the Power in Heaven. It is not saying simply to love all your neighbors, but also that they are judged by God the same as you, and this is why you are to love them the same as you, because they are the same as you.

    Jesus said he is righteousness itself. Righteousness is good words and good deeds. This means that whenever someone tells the truth, which is righteous, it is done in the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, which are all the same thing, being the Spirit of God. Speak the truth all the time and all the time you speak in the Holy Spirit. As soon as you tell a lie the Holy Spirit is no longer present and the only way back is to ask for forgiveness. Then you’re back. Smile. Life don’t suck. What you want for yourself (to be told the truth and not to be lied to) is what God wants for everyone. Awesome. What we want for ourselves is what God wants for everyone. We want the same as God because we are part of God, made in Gods image. This is how you walk with God.

    The smallest of seeds in our words and in our deeds, which are choosing to tell the truth or to lie in our words, and choosing to trespass or not to trespass in our deeds. This is the Kingdom of God. It is within you. Our initial choices at word and deed level.

  37. Reine Gnade
    Posted May 12, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Michael, the only way to understand Muslims is to understand what the Bible says about them. It says that they are God’s creation and it says that they worship someone different from the God of the Bible.

    It’s good that you notice when a Muslim or Atheist smiles. It’s good when they do something praiseworthy but this doesn’t make them good in God’s eyes!

    Inspite of all their good deeds and speech they are unsaved.

    They need to discover their need to be saved or born again.

    They need to put their wholehearted faith or trust in Lord Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God.

    Enjoy your day!

  38. Reine Gnade
    Posted May 12, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Michael!
    We don’t want the same as God! The unsaved person is “separated” from God.

    The unsaved person isn’t in a right relationship with God.

    They need to wholeheartedly trust Christ and His atoning sacrifice to be reconciled to God!
    Only the can they begin to truly obey Christ as He desires them to.

  39. MichaelFree
    Posted May 13, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I agree to disagree with you!

    If Christ taught all Christians something it is peace. To be peaceful. Today’s Christians are mostly peaceful. That’s a good thing.

    I see being saved as being saved from the consequences of our sins here on Earth and also being saved from having to confront our own hypocrisy we lived while here on Earth when we arrive in heaven.

    There is a way to do truth and to truly cleanse yourself of all past sins here on Earth. You remember and confess all your past lies. Then you remember and confess all your past trespasses and extra if you unjustly laid hands on other people without cause. Then don’t do these things anymore.

    Then daily try to tell the truth always. Try to honor other people and what belongs to them, as if they were you, in all your deeds, and respect them, and don’t trespass against that which is not yours. And help people in need.

    Do those three things and you walk with righteousness, with God, with the power in heaven.

    Then look at all those who you were supposed to hate as they do these same righteous things. Do you deny them their righteousness as they’re doing righteousness? Do you deny them truth as it’s being done before your face? As it’s being done you can’t deny it’s being done. I choose to smile and know everyone’s tally of pluses and negatives is probably better than the first half or so of my life, and I’m humbled and amazed and filled with love for everyone.

    There is a boat. On one side the net is cast. This side of the boat is called “hate and fear”. The other side of the boat is called “love and truth”.

    When you say “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me”, and then tell non-Christians to believe in Jesus or go to hell. What that is is hate and fear. Fear of hell to induce religion joining. All the while an agreement is not an agreement unless it is done outside of fear so the fear induced convert is not an actual convert. Sickening really. Then the hate comes when you are told to look differently at people who are not-Christian.

    But if you say “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by the way, the truth, and the life”. The truth is a way we choose to speak. The truth is also something that we do to each other in the form of not trespassing against each other in our deeds, for the truth doer comes to the light if called to account for what they have done.

    John 3:19 Jesus said “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their DEEDS were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil (evil DEEDS) hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his DEEDS should be reproved (rebuked). 21 But he that doeth truth (true DEEDS) cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    The truth speaker and non-trespasser walks in the light of day for all to see.

    Now you might say I left this out, John 3:16 Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (way, truth, life) should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (the truth is a creative and non-destructive spirit). 18 He that believeth on him (way, truth, life) is not condemned: but he that believeth not (sinner in word and deed) is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (righteousness aka truth).

    Peace.

  40. MichaelFree
    Posted May 13, 2014 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Oh, and the net was not broken when cast on the “love and truth” side of the ship.

    -Michael.

  41. Reine Gnade
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Michael!

    We have all strayed from God! We are all utterly sinful.

    Truly all our acts of goodness are as nothing more than “filthy rags” in the eyes of God.

    “All of us (every person except Christ) have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6).

    Dear readers, God doesn’t esteem your acts of righteousness as anything but “filthy rags.” Your “righteous acts” are considered by God as soiled.

    Dear readers, man can’t make himself good enough to deserve to live forever with an all-holy God!

    Yes, we are commanded to do good works.

    The Apostle Paul explained that we cannot do anything to save ourselves, but our salvation comes only as a result of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8–9).

    Enjoy your day!

  42. MichaelFree
    Posted May 18, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Being saved by faith alone sounds really good to a sinner but being saved by works does not.

    I choose to try everyday not to sin. To not lie. To not trespass. To help people in need. To see these things in all who do them. To ask for forgiveness when I fail so as to come back to truth.

    These things are not filthy rags, they are enlightenment, they are the way, they are the truth, and they are the creative spirit which is life. The opposite way is destructive.

    Jesus claimed to be the truth. His claim is to empirical provable truth, not beliefs. This would make him righteousness itself. Christ (King, Anointed One) is righteousness itself. This is why Christ remaineth forever, for righteousness has always been righteousness and righteousness will always be righteousness. All beings, human and deity, are judged by truth, by righteousness, for no one can do unrighteousness and call it righteousness, without being a liar and a thief.

    This is why many find acts attributed to Yahweh in the Old Testament to be those of a liar and a thief, and why many see Jesus in the Gospels as truth and righteousness.

    -Michael

  43. Posted May 20, 2014 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Are you eager to be blessed by Jesus’ wonderful words of life and desire to trust in His atoning sacrifice?

    Do you know that all miracles come from the Lord God of the holy Bible.

    He provides the air, the light and the sunlight.

    Faith, hope and love are His magnificent gifts also to us.

    Do you know that His treasured name is the Word of God? Do you know that He came to earth and died an agonising death at the hands of His own creation to offer us hope of a new life?

    Do you know, searcher for truth, that man’s true home is found in his holy
    presence?

    O yes, He is the LORD God of miracles who can cure any illness known to man.

    He died at Calvary for you and me. Those who trust and obey Him wholeheartedly will find themselves truly blessed by Him.

    This person whose name is above all names is found in the holy Bible.
    Do you know Jesus? Do you love Him?

    His name means God is salvation. He is the truth and only speaks the truth. He is the Messiah and eternal God.

    He is God with us. His title Emmanuel testifies precisely to His true identity.

    Miracles pour forth graciously from the risen Lord, the good shepherd of our soul.

    He can turn an unthankful person into a thankful person. He can turn a cold, callous person into a compassionate, loving person. Now that’s a miracle of miracles!

    Be encouraged because if you know the Lord now He will never say to you “depart from me, I know you not.”

    Be encouraged for the judgment to come for true believers is something beneficial for them!

  44. Posted May 20, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Focus on what God thinks and then He will bless you with the right understanding!

    Michael, if you choose to pay no heed to what God teaches on this subject, then your teaching will be false.

    Jesus is righteous that is why sinful man must put his faith in Him and not rely on his “righteous” deeds for salvation.

  45. MichaelFree
    Posted May 20, 2014 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Just to be clear, when I said that being saved by faith alone but not by works sounds really good to a sinner, I was referring to a sinner saying that they are saved while they continue to sin.

    What I mean by faith is religion, so an unrepentant sinner who says they are saved by religion, who continues to sin, is a sinner, and is not saved from the repercussions of their sinning, for they will still have to answer for each sin, but a repentant sinner who changes and comes to remission of their sins is changed, and indeed born again.

    To confront our own hypocrisy here on Earth and to not carry that hypocrisy to heaven is a gift. The greatest gift of all.

  46. Posted May 21, 2014 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    The LORD God remits (forgives) sin on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross (Romans 3:24-25).

    The teaching of Scripture is that remission only comes by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    And yes Michael, as you write so well the gift of salvation is the most beautiful gift of all.

    Salvation is a gift available to Muslims, but they must first recognize that they are praying to a false god whose worship God rejects.

    Then they must be willing to turn to the only true God, the God of the holy Bible.

    This is possible, for nothing is impossible for the LORD God!

    Enjoy your day!

  47. MichaelFree
    Posted May 24, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Malachi 3: 1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years (before the corruption).

    5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers (those who say they are righteous and are not), and against the adulterers (“trespassers of other people’s right to agreement with regard to their person or their property”), and against false swearers (“liars”), and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages (1), the widow (2), and the fatherless (3), and that turn aside the stranger from his right (4) (1,2,3, and 4 are “not helping people who are in need”), and fear (love) not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

  48. MichaelFree
    Posted May 24, 2014 at 6:30 am | Permalink

    John 16: 8 And when he is come (Spirit of Truth), he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me (truth); 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me (righteousness) no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged (lying and trespassing of other people’s right to agreement with respect to their person and their property).

    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now (we aren’t judged on our religion, lack of religion, our gender, our race, or our sexuality). 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself (daily truth and wrestling with God has taught him wisdom); but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come (you will account for your hypocrisy here on Earth or in Heaven, one or the other). 14 He shall glorify me (truth): for he shall receive of mine (truth), and shall shew it (truth) unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath (righteousness) are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine (righteousness), and shall shew it (righteousness) unto you.

    Do you prefer to be told the truth or to be told lies?

    Do you prefer that people do things to you, your person or your property, either with or without your agreement?

    Ask anyone in the world these two questions and most people will answer them the same way.

    If we then don’t also do truth in our words and agreement in our actions to everyone else in the world then we are not doing to other people how we would have done to ourselves, and we would not be doing to other people how they would have done to themselves. Our choices are to tell the truth or to lie and to trespass or not to trespass.

    The truth sayer and agreement doer, if called to account for what they have done, comes to the light of day for all to see, whereas the liar and trespasser of another person’s right to agreement, if called to account for what they have done, many times seeks to hide in the darkness hoping that no one finds out the truth.

    What you do all alone or in agreement with other people, that affects no one else, and that doesn’t abuse the animals or the Earth, is no one’s business but your own, so if called to account for what you have done by other people who were not affected, you don’t have to answer them if you don’t want to.

    When you see someone that you think is in need, think if you were in that same need yourself and what help you would appreciate, then offer them that same help when and where you can.

    Righteousness is recognizing unmet need, truth in our words, and agreement in our deeds. They are good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.

    Realize that everyone in the world does these good things and that we’re all judged the same way, including men and women, those who are of any religion, those who are atheists, those of any race or nationality, and heterosexuals and homosexuals.

    And when we fail, we come back to truth by asking for forgiveness, and when forgiveness is asked of us, give it.

    Respond to lies and trespasses in proportion to the lie or trespass, but do not act with vengeance, but rather with truth, restraint, and compassion.

    Beliefs are neither true nor false because they are beliefs, but truth is provable and functional. For if in truth you own something and someone steals it from you and then calls it their own, the theft is not righteous because you being the owner did not agree to the trespass. Ownership is truth. You own your person and your property. The right to agreement belongs to the owner. There are some who may think that they own other people, and who may think that they own other people’s property, and may even have possession of them, but they do not truly own what is not theirs.

  49. MichaelFree
    Posted May 26, 2014 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Please forgive me for all of my comments that I have posted on this site.

  50. Posted May 27, 2014 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    How does man make an offering of righteousness unto the Lord?

    By wholeheartedly trusting and obeying the Lord Jesus, Our God.

    When our faith is in His perfect atoning sacrifice and His resurrection, then we will also treasure His teachings and live more consistently to God’s glory!

    Bible study is very important!

  51. MichaelFree
    Posted June 24, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    I wasn’t going to comment here anymore, relating the Bible to empirical truth, but Reine’s comment about studying the Bible rubs me the wrong way, so I apologize but this needs to be said:

    Reine Gnade,

    Here is a dose of the hypocrisy and double-speak in the Bible:

    Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”.

    1 John 5:19 “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.

    Here is another dose of the hypocrisy and double-speak in the Bible:

    James 1:22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

    Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”.

    Here is a dose of truth:

    According to the double-speak Bible: A righteous Gentile who follows the Noahide laws and a righteous Gentiles’ interpretation of the Ten Commandments does all they need to do, all of which are covered when I do four things. According to the Bible I am assured a place in the world to come when I do these things:

    1. When you covet anything that is not yours it is a precursor to stealing. Therefore I will not covet what is not mine. Instead I will look at the world with eyes of righteousness recognizing unmet need wherever it exists. Recognizing unmet need is the precursor to giving. (Commandment 10). THESE ARE GOOD THOUGHTS

    2. When you realize that beliefs are neither true nor false, so they are beliefs, but the truth is functional and provable, then you will know the truth. Do not lie. Tell the truth. (Commandment 9). THESE ARE GOOD WORDS

    3. When you commit adultery it is a breaking of agreement that defiles your wife or husband’s person. Do not commit adultery also means do not trespass against other people’s right to agreement with respect to their person or their property. Do not trespass. (Commandment 7) THESE ARE GOOD DEEDS

    4. When I mess up, and I do occasionally, I’m reminded to ask for forgiveness, and when forgiveness is asked of me, I’m reminded to give it.

    Here is more truth:

    The division across religions in the world is the fruit of the evil one.

    The oneness is the fruit of the good one: Most Jews are good people. Most Christians are good people. Most Muslims are good people. Most people of all religions are good people. Most atheists are good people. Women are equal to men. All races are equal. Homosexuals have been with us since the beginning of time and will be with us until the end of time, make peace with them, and make peace with TRUTH, as they harm no one and are not criminals, as they have no righteous accuser. You have been blessed with TRUTH just now.

    You may say, as you did previously, that Jesus said “no one is good but God”, and I say to that, EXACTLY. Most people in the world are good people because they are part of God (RIGHTEOUSNESS). It is when we separate ourselves from righteousness and don’t come to forgiveness that we separate ourselves from God (RIGHTEOUSNESS) and the only way back is through truth and asking for forgiveness.

    Two ancient peoples meet.

    One ancient person asks the other ancient person “do you need help?” (help people in need)

    Other person answers “yes” or “no” (truth in our words)

    According to their true words showing their agreement or disagreement to being helped, either help them and their property or don’t help them and their property (don’t trespass against other people or their property)

    One says “brother or sister, I’m going home” (and goes home)

    Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. The ancient path of love and truth and peace are done, so justice is done, and creation is honored.

  52. Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Welcome back Michael. Your teaching hasn’t improved!
    You have invented a teaching in which the cross of Christ isn’t even mentioned.
    Such a teaching is displeasing to God!

    You have criticism for the Bible because like Richard and Rose you
    refuse to bow down to the LORD as your authority. It is up to you know.
    Start afresh and learn from Him!

  53. MichaelFree
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Are you sure the Cross of Christ isn’t mentioned in my comment Reine? Think about what you are saying when truth is spoken and you don’t acknowledge it. All you can say is that I don’t bow to God or that I displease God, and that’s disgusting and an insult, just like you have insulted the Muslims.

    Yeshua claimed to be “The Truth”:

    Matthew 7:12 “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets”.

    So how does one do “faith” to another person, besides by doing “works” toward them and abiding by the law and not being lawless.

    James 1:22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

    And regarding my previous comment, where I mentioned Commandment 10 which talks about not being “covetous”, but left out it’s unrighteous part: Gentiles and Jews have always been “human beings” and will always be human beings, and no one in history or into the future will ever have a rightful claim to call another person less than human or their slave. This is truth.

  54. MichaelFree
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    And here is more truth. You seem to have a claim to knowing who God is and how to worship God. Here is truth: you are guessing. You don’t know, you believe, and that is fine, and can actually be beautiful, but you make it ugly just like all the rest who think they’re special: many Jews think they’re special, many Christians think they’re special, many Muslims think they’re special, and all other religions that claim exclusivity to God think they’re special, but it’s actually an abomination.

    And here is why it is an abomination: Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

    The “exclusivity to God” nonsense that you seem to like so much prevents you from seeing the righteous Jew, righteous Muslim, or righteous person of any other faith, or the righteous atheist. For you call the righteous unrighteous and for this you are putting darkness for light.

    And yet I know that you’re probably a good person to other people Reine. I bet you’re a good neighbor to everyone. Funny thing how beliefs divide us when what brings us together has nothing at all to do with beliefs.

  55. Posted June 27, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Michael, if you desire to be very attentive to truth you must cease immediatedly to accuse the Bible of double speak, because when you do that you are actually accusing the LORD Himself of double speak.

    The Bible is His book. He teaches that His Word is flawless.

    When someone agrees with Him that is when they can truly honor Him.

    Michael, in order to understand the cross of Christ you would need to first allow the LORD to teach you where the most glaring errors are in your teaching.

    One of the most clear cut errors is that you attach the word righteous to unsaved people!

    Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Homosexuals and believers of other faiths can become saved by the God of the Bible, but only if they are willingly to be taught by Him.

    The Bible classifies all these groupings of people as unrighteous. They are all sinners in need of salvation!

    Do you realize how serious your error is?

  56. Posted June 27, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    The Lord God of the Bible Himself makes the claim that He alone is Savior.

    Anyone who teaches that God’s witness is nonsense shows He doesn’t trust or understand Him.
    Are you ready to meet the only true God?
    You can if you seek Him wholeheartedly. Let Him teach you, Michael.

  57. Posted June 27, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Michael, how can someone kindly teaching you the truth be insulting you?

    Focus on Jeshua, not me. He can cleanse you of all that needs cleansing. Welcome Him to cleanse you!

  58. MichaelFree
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You said, “Michael, if you desire to be very attentive to truth you must cease immediatedly to accuse the Bible of double speak, because when you do that you are actually accusing the LORD Himself of double speak”.

    My answer to that is: I do no such thing! I KNOW THAT GOD IS ONLY RIGHTEOUS, KNOW MIND YOU, NOT BELIEVE, THE ONE TRUE GOD IS ONLY RIGHTEOUS, NOT RIGHTEOUS AND UNRIGHTEOUS. ONE GOD, NOT TWO. The writers were men and perverted the word of God and you don’t see the perversion.

    How is this not double-speak, you can’t have it both ways:

    Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”.

    1 John 5:19 “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.

    or:

    James 1:22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

    Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”.

    You said, “One of the most clear cut errors is that you attach the word righteous to unsaved people!”.

    My answer to that is: I’m sorry Reine but when I see a good Jew, Muslim, or atheist, I see a good Jew, Muslim, or atheist, there is no two ways about it, good is good, and good is not bad. Where is your humanity that you don’t see good where there is good?

    You said, “Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Homosexuals and believers of other faiths can become saved by the God of the Bible, but only if they are willingly to be taught by Him”.

    My answer to that is: How could you stand before the righteous in the presence of God and call them unrighteous for their religious beliefs alone, when many of them have far fewer actual sins than many of those who profess to be Christian?

    You said, “Anyone who teaches that God’s witness is nonsense shows He doesn’t trust or understand Him”.

    My answer to that is: I TRUST THE RIGHTEOUS YESHUA I FOUND WHEN I FIRST READ THE GOSPELS.

    You said, “Are you ready to meet the only true God?”.

    My answer to that is: I ALREADY HAVE. I see him in all righteous people who are equal, men and women, those who are religious and those who are not, people of all races and nationalities, and heterosexuals and homosexuals. Have you ever looked closely at another person helping another person and felt complete compassion and love for the good deed being done and actually saw those smiling faces Reine? I’ve “seen” physically the presence of God several times now observing this. God is compassionate without measure Reine. Compassionate enough to see through the nonsense of judging on religion and smart enough to know all the different ways that people come to the specific religion or lack of religion that they have, and yet God still sees the righteousness as being wholly separate from religious belief. This will be poured out in our lifetime I suspect Reine.

    You said, “You can if you seek Him wholeheartedly. Let Him teach you, Michael”.

    My answer to that is: I DO EVERYDAY, FOR HIS NAME IS TRUTH. When he came walking in the Garden looking for Adam and Eve his NAME IS TRUTH. When Jesus came to the shore after his resurrection and saw the Apostles fishing his NAME IS TRUTH. Adam and Eve and Peter were both naked and got dressed in the presence of TRUTH.

    HIS NAME IS TRUTH: Yeshua said “I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by THE TRUTH”.

    HIS NAME IS TRUTH: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in THE TRUTH shall have everlasting life and shall not perish”.

    You said, “Focus on Jeshua, not me. He can cleanse you of all that needs cleansing. Welcome Him to cleanse you!”.

    My answer to that is: I’VE ALREADY BEEN BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE, GOLD THAT HAS BEEN PURIFIED IN FIRE, AND I AM RICH SPIRITUALLY, WHITE GARMENTS BECAUSE I AM NOT ASHAMED OF MY NAKEDNESS AND OINTMENT FOR MY EYES THAT LET ME SEE.

    Believe it or don’t believe it, but I am done speaking about this, as we are going in circles. I can see that I’m probably not going to change your mind and you definitely are not going to change my mind.

    Peace.

  59. Posted June 28, 2014 at 3:53 am | Permalink

    Greetings Michael!
    Unsaved man stands naked before God.

    He can’t clothe himself. God must clothe him!

    You quote 1 John 5:19 but fail to grasp that those deeply ensnared by false religion are captives of Satan.

    Worshippers of false gods are not children of God.

    Yes, they do “good” things but doing “good” things saves no one.

    They are sinners who need to learn of their need for salvation.

    The number of sins isn’t what’s the issue.

    What is of vital importance is not man’s opinion, but whether the LORD has saved someone.
    And finally the Bible is holy! It is not perverted. It is a gift from Our holy LORD!

  60. MichaelFree
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    I said I was done speaking about this, but here I am, so I apologize.

    I can’t let this go unanswered.

    You said: “Unsaved man stands naked before God”.

    My answer to that is: SAVED MAN STAND NAKED BEFORE GOD AND IS UNASHAMED. For Adam and Eve only got dressed after they had trespassed against Gods property and their agreement with God, and Peter only got dressed after he had lied to Jesus about going to his death with him.

    You said: “You quote 1 John 5:19 but fail to grasp that those deeply ensnared by false religion are captives of Satan”.

    My answer to that is: The division amongst religions and the people of the world is the fruit of the evil one.

    You said: “Worshippers of false gods are not children of God”.

    My answer to that is: The God of false division is not God at all. Even the liars and the trespassers, although separated from God, are still part of the human family, and compassion is poured out without measure upon them.

    You said: “Yes, they do “good” things but doing “good” things saves no one.

    My answer to that is: You are wrong, for doing good things saves you from sin.

    You said: “They are sinners who need to learn of their need for salvation”.

    My answer to that is: Doing good is salvation.

    You said: “The number of sins isn’t what’s the issue”.

    My answer to that is: Of course it’s the issue. A person who does daily truth does not live in sin, so they have no current sin, either because they haven’t sinned, or when they do sin, they come back to truth as soon as possible, much like I have here at the top of this comment where I said I was done speaking about this, but wasn’t, so I apologized.

    You said: “And finally the Bible is holy! It is not perverted. It is a gift from Our holy LORD!”.

    My answer to that is: The whole Bible is not perverted, but some of it clearly is. Look at the dichotomy:

    Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”.

    1 John 5:19 “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”.

    Or we can take a trip all the way back to Numbers 31, for surely God does not command men to slay little babies, or innocent men and women, or to take sex slave wives, and to count them like cattle. Whoever wrote that God commanded this is out of their mind. Grown men with the blood of babies on their hands, and it is attributed to God.

    This is what is Holy in the Bible: The Tree of Life. The Ten Commandments (minus the part in commandment 10 about owning slaves, for I suspect authority will be given to rewrite that part). The Kingdom of God. The path of truth, of righteousness, the ancient paths.

  61. Posted June 28, 2014 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Greetings Michael! I think like Richard and Rose you are making too many trips to Numbers 31.
    Can I encourage you to journey to the cross of Christ. That is where God offers man forgiveness. That is where you and Richard and Rose need to focus. Focus on Jeshuah. Focus on His words on the cross.

  62. Posted June 28, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    If your teaching that sinners are righteous was right Jesus would never have poured out His soul unto death .on the cross. Learn about the true Jesus, Michael.
    Study Psalm 1 and learn that there are two groups of people: the righteous and the unrighteous.

  63. MichaelFree
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Psalm 1

    1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly (so he doesn’t sin and doesn’t call sinning grace), nor standeth in the way of sinners (he doesn’t follow the way of sinning), nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful (he’s not scornful of sinners, he restrains them, runs from them, or turns the other cheek to them, and when he restrains them he confronts them with truth, restraint, compassion, and loving forgiveness, for he doens’t take an eye for eye because that makes the world go blind).

    2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD (Yes indeed); and in his law doth he meditate day and night (Yes indeed).

    3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

    4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

    5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

  64. Posted June 29, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Thank you Michael for your keen interest in this subject.
    In Psalm 1:6 we are told that there are two ways. The way of the righteous and the way of the ungodly.

    The LORD teaches very clearly that the ungodly are unrighteous.

    Who are ungodly in God’s way of seeing things?

    The answer is everyone who isn’t a child of God or everyone who is unsaved.

    Why does the LORD use such a strong verb as perish. Because that is exactly what will happen.

    Notice He uses the verb perish also in John 3:16!

    What does the only true God teach?

    He teaches that the way of the ungodly will perish, whereas the way of the righteous is eternal life!

    Let’s take God’s word seriously!

  65. MichaelFree
    Posted June 29, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Many people think they are better than other people. Many men think they are better than women and many women think they are better than men. Many religious people think they are special and chosen and are better than other religious people who are of a different religion. Many religious people think they are better than atheists. Many atheists think they are better than those who are religious. Many nations think they are better than other nations. Many races of people think they are better than other races of people. Many heterosexuals think they are better than homosexuals and many homosexuals think they are better than heterosexuals. And they all learned unrighteous division and don’t even realize it, and are “ungodly” when they do this, for they know not righteous judgment, but are the very seed of all unrighteousness.

    Take it how you will. I’ve overcome the world. You see, I’m not different than any of the groups I’ve mentioned above, for I see the oneness and not the division, and I’d have it no other way, for I know that we’re all the same, made in the Creators image. All the groups make me smile when they aren’t dividing against one another but rather smiling with each other.

    Jesus said:

    “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you”.

    “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.

    “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”.

    Everyone in the groups above I truly love. I love all my neighbors, and everyone in the world is my neighbor. I love them as myself because they are me and I am them.

    It’s called empathy, go and learn what this means, I shall have mercy and not a sacrifice.

  66. Posted June 30, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    At last I see you use the word unrighteous. It is biblical to do this but you must go much further.

  67. Posted June 30, 2014 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Michael, you need to stop boasting and start studying the Bible more closely. Studyhow the Lord uses the word unrighteous and start desiring to use the word unrighteous in your writing as He does then you have a chance to be more empathetic!

  68. Posted July 1, 2014 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Michael, you should study Romans 3:10 which says:

    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Then you ought to ask the LORD to help you believe His teaching!

    Then you should never ever teach that unsaved man is righteous!

    Decide to be a diligent explorer for truth. Start with this verse! Learn it by heart and teach it!

    Then you should focus on Richard on Rose, for they both need the help of a teacher who believes this important verse from the Bible.

    May Almighty God help you to take His word seriously!

  69. MichaelFree
    Posted July 1, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    Many Jews look at Christians as thieves, that they took from Judaism and made another God, one that denies them even if they do the Ten Commandments of God that are written in the Hebrew Scriptures. You see, this is the division, and it is unrighteous, for you have divided yourselves against the Jews and many Jews are rightfully upset about it. I heard Hitler used the ‘synagogue of satan’ words that Jesus said and used it against the Jews when he tried to exterminate them. You see, Hitler was a Christian, and just like many Christians today, he thought that Jews should burn also, but he wasn’t going to wait until the afterlife, and instead tried to make it happen here on Earth. For Hitler learned the division but the cancer wasn’t only in his head, so in addition to the lies he perpetuated against them he also took it to his hands and to his feet, and laid hands on them, just like the Jews in the temple in Jesus’ time who laid hands on Jesus, and crucified him unjustly. But Hitler put them in ovens where they would be in complete agony for many minutes before they passed. But the God that you found, the one that is supposedly merciful and wholly righteous, doesn’t just put the Jews in the oven for mere minutes but rather for eternity.

    And many Jews learned the unrighteous division also for many a Jew thinks that Gentiles are less than human, that Gentiles are meant to be their slaves, and it says this in their supposedly holy books. Because there are many interpretations to what are essentially riddles one can argue Jesus alluded to Gentiles being owned by Jews also when he said to a Gentile woman: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Jews). Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s (Jews) bread, and to cast it to dogs (Gentile slaves). And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs (Gentle slaves) eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ (Jewish slave masters) table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith (her faith that she is a Gentile slave to Jews). I know a wholly righteous interpretation of this parable also, but I won’t say it here in this context.

    My Mom and my Grandmothers and everyone woman or little girl I see or ever will see is greater than this statement that was said the Bible. If I said this statement from 1 Corinthians to a woman, and meant it, it would be me that would be defiled, not them: 1 Corinthians 14: 34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church”.

  70. Posted July 1, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Michael, to teach that Hitler was a Christian is lunacy. Don’t volunteer to believe lies!

    Jesus said you will know them by their deeds. The evil deeds of Hitler speak for themseves.

    Hitler was servant of Satan.

    In my opinion Christ never knew him. He was an unsaved man who died in his sins!

    What should you do Michael? You should study the words of Jesus.

    Begin today! Let Him teach you the truth so that you stop relying on your own faulty understanding.

    Michael, this will be my last post to you, Richard and Rose!

    I have attempted to guide you back to the good shepherd.

    It is up to you and all readers to take His words more seriously.

    I personally don’t find that you are making a serious effort to tell the truth.

    Your comment that Hitler was a Christian shows that your thinking needs a lot of cleansing.

    Such a false understanding has covinced me that my investment in time in you Michael, Richard and Rose is over.

    I shared everything I know with you but you continue willingly to believe blatant lies!

    How evil does a man have to behave before you understand that he is a worker of the father of lies?

  71. MichaelFree
    Posted July 1, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Reine Gnade,

    You said: “To teach that Hitler was a Christian is lunacy. Don’t volunteer to believe lies!”

    My answer: I should have prefaced my words and said that Hitler was a “so-called” Christian. Apparently he was raised a Catholic and never left the church. I also don’t believe he was a true Christian in the sense that his words and his deeds don’t reflect love at all.

    You said: “Jesus said you will know them by their deeds. The evil deeds of Hitler speak for themseves”.

    My answer: It’s good to recognize that deeds mean a lot and show the content of our character.

    You said: “Hitler was servant of Satan”.

    My answer: I agree. I see “satan” as a metaphor for the spirit of evil.

    You said: “In my opinion Christ never knew him. He was an unsaved man who died in his sins!”

    My answer: How do you know, like I think Richard said before, that Hitler didn’t confess his sins right before death, understanding that supposedly it is a fact that he never left the church? A lot of so-called Christians would have you believe that if he had confessed his sins right before death he would’ve went to heaven while the six million plus Jews he killed supposedly would’ve went to hell.

    You said: “Michael, this will be my last post to you, Richard and Rose!”

    My answer: I apologize if I have offended you in anyway with regard to what are essentially beliefs. Again, I don’t judge people according to their beliefs, but rather on their words and on their deeds, making a REAL BIG distinction between what are beliefs and things said that can be actually proven. For instance I own my person and my property so if someone steals something from me and then calls it their own, it is a lie, plain and simple, no beliefs about it, but rather it’s a proven thing. All these religious things we’ve been talking about are beliefs. Beliefs are fine as long as we don’t use them to oppress each other in real life.

  72. MichaelFree
    Posted July 3, 2014 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Forgive me for everything I have said on this site.

  73. Bartholomew Harner
    Posted January 7, 2015 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Morality is a social construct. It has no meaning in the absence of 2 or more people.

  74. Posted January 10, 2015 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Morality is a social construct. It has no meaning in the absence of 2 or more people.

    True. But are you saying that this implies there are no objective facts relating to morality? Justice is a “social construct” based on the objective concepts such as fairness. That was the point of my article.

  75. Bartholomew Harner
    Posted January 11, 2015 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Not at all. I am simply saying that morality is based on the social setting it is construed from. Eugenics was objectively accepted and actually promoted by many scientific circles in the U.S. before WW II. Far from immoral, it was held up as bettering society. In fact, the Nazi’s were big fans of some of our policies. Now? Not so popular and considered morally reprehensible.

    Your example of the coin from a purely objective view is correct. However, Let’s have a thought experiment… What changes if I told you that one of those identical coins was given to me by my grandfather on his deathbed? Then? It’s not worth more to you, but you can understand it’s worth to me. If a third man comes by, he sees two coins of identical worth. If you were the person in charge of equitably distributing those two identical coins to myself and the third man, who would you give my grandfathers coins to? Why? Is is “fair”? If you give me my grandfathers coin is that fair? It is worth far more to me than face value. Would it change your mind if I told you that I would give you a third identical coin from my pocket if you give me my grandfathers coin? What if I told you I was just going to buy my grandfathers coin from the other man if you give him the coin. I think you can see the problem with objectivity when human beings are involved.

  76. Bartholomew Harner
    Posted January 11, 2015 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Oh!, I think you are right. Morality is not dependent on the existence of God. At least no more than what every other thing in creation is dependent on God for its existence.

  77. Posted January 11, 2015 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    True. But are you saying that this implies there are no objective facts relating to morality? Justice is a “social construct” based on the objective concepts such as fairness. That was the point of my article.

    Not at all. I am simply saying that morality is based on the social setting it is construed from. Eugenics was objectively accepted and actually promoted by many scientific circles in the U.S. before WW II. Far from immoral, it was held up as bettering society. In fact, the Nazi’s were big fans of some of our policies. Now? Not so popular and considered morally reprehensible.

    And why is it now considered “morally reprehensible”? The answer seems obvious – our moral understanding has evolved to better correspond to moral reality just like our physical science has evolved to better correspond to physical reality. We see this in many areas. E.g. racism was much more broadly accepted in the early 20th century than it is now. And why? Because we recognize the foundation of morality is the principle of equal human rights for all. We have expanded our consciousness from “our tribe” to “our species.” Some think the ultimate morality would include equal rights for all sentient beings.

    Your example of the coin from a purely objective view is correct. However, Let’s have a thought experiment… What changes if I told you that one of those identical coins was given to me by my grandfather on his deathbed? Then? It’s not worth more to you, but you can understand it’s worth to me. If a third man comes by, he sees two coins of identical worth. If you were the person in charge of equitably distributing those two identical coins to myself and the third man, who would you give my grandfathers coins to? Why? Is is “fair”? If you give me my grandfathers coin is that fair? It is worth far more to me than face value. Would it change your mind if I told you that I would give you a third identical coin from my pocket if you give me my grandfathers coin? What if I told you I was just going to buy my grandfathers coin from the other man if you give him the coin. I think you can see the problem with objectivity when human beings are involved.

    Your thought experiment does not actually have anything to do with my example because I was referring only to the objective nature of the coin’s weight, not the value we attribute to that weight. But I understand you point – the concept of “value” has subjective elements. Does this mean that morality has no objective elements? Of course not. The fact that there are complex moral questions does not say anything about the objective nature of morality itself, which was the point of my article.

    I really appreciate your comments.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

  78. Posted January 11, 2015 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Oh!, I think you are right. Morality is not dependent on the existence of God. At least no more than what every other thing in creation is dependent on God for its existence.

    I’m glad you understand that point. It’s somewhat dismaying to see how many people fall for the “moral argument for God.” It’s especially ironic when they say that without God there would be no “objective morality” and then find themselves forced to deny that genocide is “objectively immoral” because God commanded it in the Bible (see here). The whole argument is a philosophical farce.

  79. Bartholomew Harner
    Posted January 11, 2015 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Your thought experiment does not actually have anything to do with my example because I was referring only to the objective nature of the coin’s weight, not the value we attribute to that weight. But I understand you point – the concept of “value” has subjective elements. Does this mean that morality has no objective elements? Of course not. The fact that there are complex moral questions does not say anything about the objective nature of morality itself, which was the point of my article.

    I would agree whole heartedly that there are objective elements to morality. I just cannot discount the human element that doesn’t always make sense. I would go as far as to say that objectivity without subjective elements like empathy isn’t the best path to moral enlightenment. You?

  80. Posted January 11, 2015 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    I would agree whole heartedly that there are objective elements to morality. I just cannot discount the human element that doesn’t always make sense. I would go as far as to say that objectivity without subjective elements like empathy isn’t the best path to moral enlightenment. You?

    I totally agree. Empathy is a fundamental component of morality, and the experience of empathy is subjective. Without it there would be no morality. I talk about this at length in my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality.

    It’s rather like vision. There would be no theory of light if everyone were blind. But the fact that light is experienced subjectively does not deny the possibility of an objective science of optics.

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