I am kind of confused as to why there is no “reply” line at the vottom of yur comments to me in particular…. Does that mean I should not comment further? LOL
I went ahead and copied your response to my comments below…. I really did find your comments quite interesting. I will just say that yes I do understand the evolutionary scheme quite well. Yes I have read Sean Carroll’s work and find it rather good. However, nothing I have read to date really addresses the issues that arise from the different time frames found in galactic formation Hubble Red-shift anomalies and Biological time and real earth time. No I do not think the 13 Billion year number is correct. I also do not believe in a “young earth” theory for the universe as a whole. The whole carbon dating game is a complete joke! What I do believe however is that the creation sequence and the flood story in the Bible might be some kind of code for what I see as some time keeping system for temple building or what is called “probationary time”. In other words a sequence of relational time events which would indicate some “divine” sequence which is found throuhout ALL spiritual writings. This is why I believe the Egyptians were obssessed with the after-life. They knew it to be real.
The “Gospel” as Christians call it – is nothing more than the concepts about behaviour and practices which allow the “divine” to interact with humans. The whole scheme of “salvation” imbedded in the languages of anciet cultures along with the Tower of Babal story whos strong evidence – i believe – for some “other-worldly” intelligence interacting with people. To the point that these people were scared and began to create systems of thought which was geared to address their fears. Hence the creation of the Egyptian Book of The Dead – and those types of supersitions and attempts for people to address the unknown future of the “after-life.
As to your question of do I believe in any one group of people haveing the true Gospel…. No I do not. However, I do believe there is a true system which if followed can and will lead to immortality… Jesus the Christ is NOT the saviour of the world as taught by Christians…. IHVH of the Jewish Talmud is credited with that distinction in my opinion. This model of ONE GOD is also the model found in gene sequencing. So that the connection between human DNA could have several sources – most logically we are all related through common decent. This does not answer the question of where does life come from or how does it permeate nature. By education I am a trained to understand human physiology and body functions. So I completely agree that science does tend to lean in one direction as to the origin of life being a by-product of these functions. But the mystery of how the fibers in the heart know how to beat and “sponteneously” do so is not explainable by any biological process.

You said: What do Dr. Arp’s contrary opinions have to do with evolution? Why do you find his arguments against current cosmological models compelling? Do you understand General Relativity?

I do have a basic understanding of the theory of General Relativity… The fact that the constraints of the Big Bang Module were first theorized by Dr. Arp as Dr. Hubbles assistant – and later discarded as false
by him does give reason to pause…

The problem with the evolutionary module is one of time… The universe hase to many stars galaxys and specifically glaxays connected to other galaxys which cannot fit into the time constraints of the evolutionary big-bang module. So that is the issue. No matter how the dots are strung together the basic essential evolutionary time module falls apart when trying to explain the formation of these super large structures.

That is all for now…

Namaste

Mystykal

I am kind of confused as to why there is no “reply” line at the vottom of yur comments to me in particular…. Does that mean I should not comment further? LOL
I went ahead and copied your response to my comments below…. I really did find your comments quite interesting. I will just say that yes I do understand the evolutionary scheme quite well. Yes I have read Sean Carroll’s work and find it rather good. However, nothing I have read to date really addresses the issues that arise from the different time frames found in galactic formation Hubble Red-shift anomalies and Biological time and real earth time. No I do not think the 13 Billion year number is correct. I also do not believe in a “young earth” theory for the universe as a whole. The whole carbon dating game is a complete joke! What I do believe however is that the creation sequence and the flood story in the Bible might be some kind of code for what I see as some time keeping system for temple building or what is called “probationary time”. In other words a sequence of relational time events which would indicate some “divine” sequence which is found throuhout ALL spiritual writings. This is why I believe the Egyptians were obssessed with the after-life. They knew it to be real.
The “Gospel” as Christians call it – is nothing more than the concepts about behaviour and practices which allow the “divine” to interact with humans. The whole scheme of “salvation” imbedded in the languages of anciet cultures along with the Tower of Babal story whos strong evidence – i believe – for some “other-worldly” intelligence interacting with people. To the point that these people were scared and began to create systems of thought which was geared to address their fears. Hence the creation of the Egyptian Book of The Dead – and those types of supersitions and attempts for people to address the unknown future of the “after-life.
As to your question of do I believe in any one group of people haveing the true Gospel…. No I do not. However, I do believe there is a true system which if followed can and will lead to immortality… Jesus the Christ is NOT the saviour of the world as taught by Christians…. IHVH of the Jewish Talmud is credited with that distinction in my opinion. This model of ONE GOD is also the model found in gene sequencing. So that the connection between human DNA could have several sources – most logically we are all related through common decent. This does not answer the question of where does life come from or how does it permeate nature. By education I am a trained to understand human physiology and body functions. So I completely agree that science does tend to lean in one direction as to the origin of life being a by-product of these functions. But the mystery of how the fibers in the heart know how to beat and “sponteneously” do so is not explainable by any biological process.

You said: What do Dr. Arp’s contrary opinions have to do with evolution? Why do you find his arguments against current cosmological models compelling? Do you understand General Relativity?

I do have a basic understanding of the theory of General Relativity… The fact that the constraints of the Big Bang Module were first theorized by Dr. Arp as Dr. Hubbles assistant – and later discarded as false
by him does give reason to pause…

The problem with the evolutionary module is one of time… The universe hase to many stars galaxys and specifically glaxays connected to other galaxys which cannot fit into the time constraints of the evolutionary big-bang module. So that is the issue. No matter how the dots are strung together the basic essential evolutionary time module falls apart when trying to explain the formation of these super large structures.

That is all for now…

Namaste

Mystykal
R. A. McGough
Posted February 6, 2013 at 1:44 pm | Permalink
Good afternoon Mystykal,

“At 1am my fingers dont seem to work all the time the way I think they should! “

Ha! I’ve had the same problem after a long day of typing. The fingers just quit responding.

I am glad to see that open perspective coming from you. I do believe that your view of “traditional Christian theology” is anything but… Let me explain. The talking heads out there in TV land and all their like minded brethren – The so called “Fundamentalist” in the big picture do NOT speak for Christianity. Neither does the RC Church which includes the pope. All of these self-made authorities have created theological mountains out of Biblical mole hills. So much of your disdain for so called “Christian goospel” seems to me to be rooted in a misconception on your part to what actually constitutes “Christian Truth”.

What then do you think the “Gospel” really is? Is there any group that represents it?

In theory I suppose that is true. But no real evidence of the sort has ever happened in a visible jump from simple to complex visible in nature. So I assume you are taking that on Faith module #1 I just do not see the evidence for the evolutionary module considering the basic findings of Dr. Arp and the Hubble red-shift data which violates all big-bang fixed time frames for galaxy formation.

It is difficult to “see” something that takes millions of years to happen. But the conclusion that evolution is a good explanation is not a “faith position” comparable to believing the Bible. Evolution is solid science based on many verifiable facts. For example, how do you explain the DNA evidence that shows common descent?

What do Dr. Arp’s contrary opinions have to do with evolution? Why do you find his arguments against current cosmological models compelling? Do you understand General Relativity?

Are you familiar with the McKenna research into factuals and the I-Ching? I do not think that those models can be ignored and hense the predictive quality of the I-Ching is far from subjective when applied ove thousnds if not millions of years.

I take it you mean “fractals” not “factuals.” Yes, I am familiar with his work. I think he was a fascinating man, though he had a lot of wacky ideas. His His Time Wave Zero contributed a lot to the silly 2012 craze. So much for “predictions” eh?

I do not see two trypes of dogs being anything that significant in relation to selection on a MACRO-evolutionary scale. And once again life – intelligent life forms cannot exist based on the time constraints of galactic formation and the time models inherent in the Big-Bang module. Period.

It sounds like you reject the age of the universe as being about 13.75 billion years. How old do you think it is?

There is no real distinction between “macro” and “micro” evolution. Given some more time, Chihuahuas and a Great Danes will become truly distinct species.

Have you ever read any books explaining evolution? I recommend The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll. It explains some of the most compelling evidence that most modern scientists find quite compelling.

The Life Principle is that notion that life is a separate quantity from matter. In the sense that consciousness does not appear to arise from mere matter. The universe has enough matter in it not to mention black holes and quazars to simply discredit any notion that intelligent life morphs out of anything resembling matter. To insist on such flies in the face of science.

The “Life Principle” is commonly known as Vitalism. It’s an ancient pre-scientific theory that has been around for thousands of years but is generally rejected now like other speculative substances and causes like pholgiston, the luminiferous aether, disease caused by demons, etc.

Do you have any evidence supporting your belief in the “Life Principle” or is it a consequence of your philosophy? I tend towards Idealism for philosophical reasons, and because I’m not confident that physics can explain consciousness. But I’m not a Vitalist because there is nothing about biological functions that can’t be explained in terms of physics as far as I know.

So, I do appreciate that you are still accepting the Great Mystery as the Ultimate realization in life. (hint hint! LOL) Perhaps this is why masters of Martial arts practice mediatation. It would seem to open the door to such mystical experiences.

I am quite open to speculation about things that cannot yet be explained, but I’m quite resistant to believing those speculations if we have any way to know if they are true.

It is a joy discussing these things with you.

Richard

“At 1am my fingers dont seem to work all the time the way I think they should! “

Ha! I’ve had the same problem after a long day of typing. The fingers just quit responding.

I am glad to see that open perspective coming from you. I do believe that your view of “traditional Christian theology” is anything but… Let me explain. The talking heads out there in TV land and all their like minded brethren – The so called “Fundamentalist” in the big picture do NOT speak for Christianity. Neither does the RC Church which includes the pope. All of these self-made authorities have created theological mountains out of Biblical mole hills. So much of your disdain for so called “Christian goospel” seems to me to be rooted in a misconception on your part to what actually constitutes “Christian Truth”.

What then do you think the “Gospel” really is? Is there any group that represents it?

In theory I suppose that is true. But no real evidence of the sort has ever happened in a visible jump from simple to complex visible in nature. So I assume you are taking that on Faith module #1 I just do not see the evidence for the evolutionary module considering the basic findings of Dr. Arp and the Hubble red-shift data which violates all big-bang fixed time frames for galaxy formation.

It is difficult to “see” something that takes millions of years to happen. But the conclusion that evolution is a good explanation is not a “faith position” comparable to believing the Bible. Evolution is solid science based on many verifiable facts. For example, how do you explain the DNA evidence that shows common descent?

What do Dr. Arp’s contrary opinions have to do with evolution? Why do you find his arguments against current cosmological models compelling? Do you understand General Relativity?

Are you familiar with the McKenna research into factuals and the I-Ching? I do not think that those models can be ignored and hense the predictive quality of the I-Ching is far from subjective when applied ove thousnds if not millions of years.

I take it you mean “fractals” not “factuals.” Yes, I am familiar with his work. I think he was a fascinating man, though he had a lot of wacky ideas. His His Time Wave Zero contributed a lot to the silly 2012 craze. So much for “predictions” eh?

I do not see two trypes of dogs being anything that significant in relation to selection on a MACRO-evolutionary scale. And once again life – intelligent life forms cannot exist based on the time constraints of galactic formation and the time models inherent in the Big-Bang module. Period.

It sounds like you reject the age of the universe as being about 13.75 billion years. How old do you think it is?

There is no real distinction between “macro” and “micro” evolution. Given some more time, Chihuahuas and a Great Danes will become truly distinct species.

Have you ever read any books explaining evolution? I recommend The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll. It explains some of the most compelling evidence that most modern scientists find quite compelling.

The Life Principle is that notion that life is a separate quantity from matter. In the sense that consciousness does not appear to arise from mere matter. The universe has enough matter in it not to mention black holes and quazars to simply discredit any notion that intelligent life morphs out of anything resembling matter. To insist on such flies in the face of science.

The “Life Principle” is commonly known as Vitalism. It’s an ancient pre-scientific theory that has been around for thousands of years but is generally rejected now like other speculative substances and causes like pholgiston, the luminiferous aether, disease caused by demons, etc.

Do you have any evidence supporting your belief in the “Life Principle” or is it a consequence of your philosophy? I tend towards Idealism for philosophical reasons, and because I’m not confident that physics can explain consciousness. But I’m not a Vitalist because there is nothing about biological functions that can’t be explained in terms of physics as far as I know.

So, I do appreciate that you are still accepting the Great Mystery as the Ultimate realization in life. (hint hint! LOL) Perhaps this is why masters of Martial arts practice mediatation. It would seem to open the door to such mystical experiences.

I am quite open to speculation about things that cannot yet be explained, but I’m quite resistant to believing those speculations if we have any way to know if they are true.

It is a joy discussing these things with you.

Richard

I appreciate your quick response… Not sure I can always do the same. I appologize in advance for my spelling typos… At 1am my fingers dont seem to work all the time the way I think they should! … You said in another post…

I’m not committed to a “naturalistic” explanation of everything. I think Reality is fundamentally “spiritual” and many things can be understood only if we understand that Mind is the foundation of Reality. Thus many things like the Dumbo Dream, syncrhonicities, telepathy, and so forth are real but not due to material explanations. But neither do they necessarily confirm traditional Christian theology which I think has many errors. So I’m just open minded about such things right now.
=============
I am glad to see that open perspective coming from you. I do believe that your view of “traditional Christian theology” is anything but… Let me explain. The talking heads out there in TV land and all their like minded brethren – The so called “Fundamentalist” in the big picture do NOT speak for Christianity. Neither does the RC Church which includes the pope. All of these self-made authorities have created theological mountains out of Biblical mole hills. So much of your disdain for so called “Christian goospel” seems to me to be rooted in a misconception on your part to what actually constitutes “Christian Truth”.
You wrote:
The idea that the scribes were ignorant and yet produced complex patterns is precisely analogous to how evolution works.
===
In theory I suppose that is true. But no real evidence of the sort has ever happened in a visible jump from simple to complex visible in nature. So I assume you are taking that on Faith module #1 I just do not see the evidence for the evolutionary module considering the basic findings of Dr. Arp and the Hubble red-shift data which violates all big-bang fixed time frames for galaxy formation.

You said:
As for the I Ching – I think it’s “predictions” are too subjective to be objectively verified. And I’m not sure how it relates to the question at hand.
====
Are you familiar with the McKenna research into factuals and the I-Ching? I do not think that those models can be ignored and hense the predictive quality of the I-Ching is far from subjective when applied ove thousnds if not millions of years.

You said:
When you say “mere” selection I get the impression that you don’t appreciate how powerful selection is. Look at a Great Dane vs. a Chihuahua. That is the product of selection. The only difference is that humans consciously selected whereas nature selects according to fitness.
====
I do not see two trypes of dogs being anything that significant in relation to selection on a MACRO-evolutionary scale. And once again life – intelligent life forms cannot exist based on the time constraints of galactic formation and the time models inherent in the Big-Bang module. Period.

You said:
What is the “life principle”? As far as I can tell, biological life is a physical process. The only philosophical challenge seems to be how (or if) consciousness arises from matter.
===
The Life Principle is that notion that life is a separate quantity from matter. In the sense that consciousness does not appear to arise from mere matter. The universe has enough matter in it not to mention black holes and quazars to simply discredit any notion that intelligent life morphs out of anything resembling matter. To insist on such flies in the face of science.
So, I do appreciate that you are still accepting the Great Mystery as the Ultimate realization in life. (hint hint! LOL) Perhaps this is why masters of Martial arts practice mediatation. It would seem to open the door to such mystical experiences.

Namaste,
Mystykal

You said:

However, broad you are painting the picture, you said before that the scribes were ignorant… now they are creating complex patterns over time? So the time factor creates more elaborate complex models?… That strikes me as a little odd since we have the I-Ching which continues to make “predictions” of a complex nature WITHOUT any scribe upgrades or interpretive arrangements.

The idea that the scribes were ignorant and yet produced complex patterns is precisely analogous to how evolution works. I wonder if they may have been unconsciously responding to archetypes. For example, the idea of an all-encompassing alphabetic circle is archetypal.

As for the I Ching – I think it’s “predictions” are too subjective to be objectively verified. And I’m not sure how it relates to the question at hand.

The notion that intelligent life is a product of mere selection and evolutionary time constraints flies in the face of String theory and particle physics. Both models which seem to have little interest in the bigger picture of how life simply inserted itself into the sub-atomic particles which existed as objects with no ability to model the life principle.

When you say “mere” selection I get the impression that you don’t appreciate how powerful selection is. Look at a Great Dane vs. a Chihuahua. That is the product of selection. The only difference is that humans consciously selected whereas nature selects according to fitness.

What is the “life principle”? As far as I can tell, biological life is a physical process. The only philosophical challenge seems to be how (or if) consciousness arises from matter. Dualism vs. Monism. I tend towards Monism, but then the question becomes Materialism vs. Idealism. I tend towards Idealism since I can understand matter as an “object of consciousness” but I can’t understand how consciousness could be a property of matter. But on the other hand, the strong correlation of brain size with consciousness supports materialism. So it is all a mystery to me.

Great chatting,

Richard

Just had to jump into the fray!….

You said earlier …
Tt fits my thesis. The pattern is obvious and too well designed to be chance, but there is too much evidence of “historical variations” (or shall we say deliberate manipulation?) to say that it is “God-given.”

So that is my thesis. I think it is possible that the order of the canon, and hence the pattern of the Bible Wheel, was slowly selected from a wide variety of hundreds of possibilities over a period of fifteen hundred years to fit the intuitions and desires of the pattern-finding and pattern-creating scribes. This hypothesis explains how we got the patterns that could not have happened by chance, and why those patterns are inferior to what we would expect if the Bible were deliberately designed by an infinitely intelligent and wise God.
=============
However, broad you are painting the picture, you said before that the scribes were ignorant… now they are creating complex patterns over time? So the time factor creates more elaborate complex models?… That strikes me as a little odd since we have the I-Ching which continues to make “predictions” of a complex nature WITHOUT any scribe upgrades or interpretive arrangements.

The notion that intelligent life is a product of mere selection and evolutionary time constraints flies in the face of String theory and particle physics. Both models which seem to have little interest in the bigger picture of how life simply inserted itself into the sub-atomic particles which existed as objects with no ability to model the life principle.

Please comment…

Namaste,

Mystykal

But you should expect to find patterns in a self replicating fractal world that is built on algorithms.
And what if after thousands of years you noticed some that are critical?

namaste

You have been misinformed by all the anti-Islam propaganda. Muslims have plenty of “forgiveness.” The Koran says that Allah is “very forgiving” if you repent. And there are many other verses in the Koran that teach forgiveness.

But don’t get me wrong, the Koran is pretty much a mixed up copy of the Bible, so it has many of the same problems. And worse, it lacks the teachings of Christ concerning loving others.

I agree that there are some amazing connections with DNA and Genesis 1. But that doesn’t fix all the other problems in the Bible, like the false creation story (there is no dome holding up waters) and the genocide, and all the other moral abominations. So I don’t know what to do with it. All the evidence for design in the Bible Wheel and the Holographs remains, but I don’t believe the message. I don’t believe people go to hell for sins and I don’t believe there is a God who answers prayers. And most of the prophecies in the Bible failed, e.g. Babylon was never destroyed violently like Isaiah 13 says.

Also, folks have always thought that we were living in the “last days.” That’s one of the most common errors of Christians. It’s really gone crazy in the last 64 years since the modern secular state of Israel was founded. But times running out for folks who think that the “end” must happen within a “generation” of 1948. Date setters have always been wrong, 100% of the time. A perfect record of error.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your comments.

Richard