Thanks for your comments. I will limit my comments here as I am not trying to change any of your ideas. However, you seem to miss the intent of my words and my quotations. The issue of definitions is clearly a sticking point with you. You seem to dodge my idea of “wisdom keeper” v/s “wisdom teachers”. In my opinion there is a huge difference. The foundation of any ideology should come from the true leaders and not from some so called teacher. Your mistake with Christianity is just that. You accepted as fact the leadership definitions for dogma and failed to see that in fact those individuals are not truely “Christian” in their teachings! So now when I lay down the definition of reincarnation from the Dalai Lama himself (“I can’t remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday”) you act like you can conjur up a different definition from some other teacher which says reincarnation is rebirth of one “soul” into several lifetimes of remembering and improving on the past experiences. That definition is NOT correct according to the Wisdom Keepers themselves. The notion of life after death as some long unbroken thought-train is not part of the definition of re-incarnation! No matter who says it. And the notion of re-birth is one which does not hold conscious anything from re-birth to re-birth. No “soul life” exists. Period. So all that mumbo jumbo tossed around by so called “teachers” is laughable.
As to the idea of consciousness being something shared outside the brain by many people at the same time…and that understanding comes from “out there” – Are you familiar with Dr.Goswami Professor of physics at the University of Oregon’s Institute of Theoretical Science? (now retired) Dr. Goswami has done some very interesting studies into intelligence and thought formation. At Bastyr University several studies have shown that two individuals not connected in any physical way experience the same stimulii when only applied to one of the individual test subjects. Suggensting that thoughts originate outside the brain! He refers to it as Quantum consciousness.. Nonlocality, tangled hierarchy, and discontinuity: these signatures of quantum consciousness have been independently verified by leading researchers worldwide. So when I say that perhaps ideas and “understanding” comes from out there somewhere I am in good comapany. Physics, specifically Quantum theory says that such ideas are correct. Please refer to http://www.amitgoswami.org

We can agree to disagree but I think its time to look at all the facts!

Namaste,

Mystykal

You wrote:

So that wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding comes from somewhere out there. The facts as we know them today do not answer for us the mystery of intelligence. By that I mean the interrelated facts cannot be simply unrelated chance mental gymnastics! Thoughts are not random! they have some kind of connection. So that the human mind and the mind of “GOD” may have the same intelligence substance….

I don’t agree that “understanding comes from somewhere out there.” In my experience, understanding comes from “in here” in my head. I don’t see intelligence itself as a great mystery. I see it grows pretty much in direct proportion to brain mass. The great apes have many characteristics found also in humans. Some even show rudimentary self-consciousness when shown a mirror. Now consciousness itself remains a mystery and that is one of the things that keeps me wondering about the metaphysical view that consciousness as the foundation of reality. But the more that I learn the less likely it seems that consciousness exists separately from brains in the sense of the classic brain/soul duality.

As to your question about the “Wisdom Keepers”…
The idea has been proposed by many anthropologists that certain information is universal and known within different cultures. The holders of this information are known as Wisdom Keepers. My personal tradition is found within the Native American cultures… Black Elk, Chief McIntosh, Ruby
Modesto to name a few. I also believe that Lao Tsu and the current Dali Lama of Tibet qualify as Wisdom Keepers. One must be very careful though how we hear the words of a spiritual guide. As the Dali Lama says “I do not see myself as anything but an ordinary man!” Yet he is revered by some as a god. He even carries the title His Holiness.

Excellent. Thanks for the clear answer. I agree with the Dali Lama. He was an ordinary man. And I read Black Elk and am convinced he was an ordinary man. I have never seen any reason to think that there are any “Wisdom Keepers.” That sounds rather superstitious and unwarranted to me.

The fact that common folk are inclined to deify famous people is another reason not believe they are really any different than anyone else. It’s just a psychological weakness common to humanity.

So that the notion of a soul as in Greek mythology and Roman Catholicism and other so called “Christian” religious traditions are not supported by the “Wisdom Keepers” or the Bible in general.

I think that is a very hasty judgment. I would be surprised if I could not find many “Wisdom Teachers” who clearly teach both reincarnation and the existence of the soul.

Great chatting!

Richard

You wrote:

As you well know I am referencing “gematria” in general with my statement about the numerical significance found in the OT layout. Perhaps you are familiar with the Bible Code research by Ripps/Drosnin sequencing. In those projects it is made clear that the patterns found are numerical in nature. And these sequences are unexplainable as well.

When you speak of the OT layout I was under the impression you meant the layout of the books as in the Bible Wheel. I do not think of the verses as forming a “layout.” But no I understand what you meant.

I have never been impressed by the ELS Bible Codes. I don’t think there is anything that needs “explaining”.

The FACT is that “intelligence” at the level of these types of numerical sequences requires a “god model”. Which in turn requires intelligence! Do not limit your options when delving into the unknown. The ancient wisdom keepers all experienced things which never could be explained.

I totally agree that I should not limit my options – and as far as I know I have not. But I don’t understand the term “god model” because it is not well defined. And even if I take it in its broadest possible sense I don’t see why it would be required by the holographs. All they require is a finite agency that (probably) transcends what any group of humans could have done (since it involves spans of time and culture that exceed any human lifetime and the earlier patterns would have had to anticipate the later patterns, etc.).

So maybe you are being a little “loose” with your term “god model”? What do you really mean by it? A clearer definition would help.

Richard

Namaste,

Mystykal

R. A. McGough
Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:25 am | Permalink
Hey there Mystykal,

Your comments are intriguing as always. I agree with a lot you say, but I don’t know anything about the “ancient wisdom keepers.” Can you name one or two so I can know who and what you are talking about? I’ll answer more after that.

Great chatting,

Richard
—————————————–
Hi Richard:
I included the above responses as I think it is hard to scroll so far up and keep commenting on earlier posts.
As to your question about the “Wisdom Keepers”…
The idea has been proposed by many anthropologists that certain information is universal and known within different cultures. The holders of this information are known as Wisdom Keepers. My personal tradition is found within the Native American cultures… Black Elk, Chief McIntosh, Ruby
Modesto to name a few. I also believe that Lao Tsu and the current Dali Lama of Tibet qualify as Wisdom Keepers. One must be very careful though how we hear the words of a spiritual guide. As the Dali Lama says “I do not see myself as anything but an ordinary man!” Yet he is revered by some as a god. He even carries the title His Holiness. Although most would say that the traditions of Tibet call for re-incarnation this in fact is NOT true. See: http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandrebirth/a/reincarnation.htm

Zen teacher John Daido Loori said,

“… the Buddha’s experience was that when you go beyond the skandhas, beyond the aggregates, what remains is nothing. The self is an idea, a mental construct. That is not only the Buddha’s experience, but the experience of each realized Buddhist man and woman from 2,500 years ago to the present day. That being the case, what is it that dies? There is no question that when this physical body is no longer capable of functioning, the energies within it, the atoms and molecules it is made up of, don’t die with it. They take on another form, another shape. You can call that another life, but as there is no permanent, unchanging substance, nothing passes from one moment to the next. Quite obviously, nothing permanent or unchanging can pass or transmigrate from one life to the next. Being born and dying continues unbroken but changes every moment.”

Thought Moment to Thought Moment
The teachers tell us that “me” is a series of thought-moments. Each thought-moment conditions the next thought-moment. In the same way, the last thought-moment of one life conditions the first thought-moment of another life, which is the continuation of a series. “The person who dies here and is reborn elsewhere is neither the same person, nor another,” Walpola Rahula wrote.

So that the notion of a soul as in Greek mythology and Roman Catholicism and other so called “Christian” religious traditions are not supported by the “Wisdom Keepers” or the Bible in general.

Namaste,

Mystykal

Namaste,

Mystykal

You asked “Finally, how do you explain the remarkable mathematical patterns you discovered in the books of the bible? Is it all coincidence?”

I don’t have an answer to that. First, the question is too broad. Which patterns do you think are in need of explanation? Most of the patterns are not “mathematical” per se, but rather alphabetic and thematic. It’s not too hard to imagine that the large scale structure which I call the “Canon Wheel” (which shows the sevenfold symmetry) could be the result of conscious or unconscious scribal selection. I talk about this possibility in my post called An Evolutionary Explanation of the Bible Wheel. But that doesn’t work for the Alphabetic KeyLinks which I think are the most significant. But on the other hand, there are not as many such KeyLinks as their could have been if God were really trying to “prove” something, and some folks would be inclined to say they are “just coincidence.” It’s a little hard to measure precisely because of technical difficulties relating to cross-correlating Greek and Hebrew texts, but it’s something I’ve been meaning to do.

The most impressive “proof” for me is that the traditional arrangement seems to be truly optimal. Any rearrangement degrades existing patterns and does not make for new better patterns as far as I can tell. I call this the Bible Wheel Challenge and no one has ever attempted to answer it. So the mystery remains, but I don’t feel a need to figure it out because I have no sense of “urgency” since it is quite obvious to me that all the dogmas and threats of hell and such are pure poppycock.

All the best,

Richard

See these for example:
http://torahexplorer.com/2013/04/29/random-and-undirected/
http://torahexplorer.com/2013/04/16/the-limits-of-variability/

Also his recently published book:

http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Respectfully-putting-science-place/dp/1598260251
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/07/the-myth-of-the-almighty-scientist-genesis-and-genes-by-yoram-bogacz-review/
http://blog.dovidgottlieb.com/2012/12/genesis-and-genes-review-in-algemeiner.html

Finally, how do you explain the remarkable mathematical patterns you discovered in the books of the bible? Is it all coincidence?

Thanks for replying so quickly and generously.

How do I register for the forum? Where is it located?

So do you also believe that there is no life after death and all ends in the grave (or crematorium)? If so, what motivates you even to try in this world? Why bring children into such a world? What about politics and warfare? Almost all societies are involved in a constant struggle to assert their ideologies over those of rivals. Do you oppose this process? Do you avoid paying taxes that contribute to the war machine? If there is no God, then why should we care about any of this? Why is the Holocaust abhorrent? Why be concerned about infanticide? Etc etc ad nauseum.

Thanks for your honesty.

Regarding your comments giving a free pass to evolutionary science, I have read some books on it. I was in fact reared and educated in the myth of evolution through college at Harvard. Regarding skepticism of this field, I have done extensive reading by scientists who oppose it. I rely on their information, since it seems both logical and credible.

Also it amuses me that you defer to the judgment of biologists and other supposed experts in evolution, when their patron saint and founder Darwin himself was a self-trained autodidact. And the other leg of evolutionary theory, geological uniformitarianism, was created by Darwin’s friend, Charles Lyell, a lawyer by training and another amateur scientist. So why the objections to Darwinism by highly trained scientists in disparate fields is “off limits” to you seems incredible!

Finally, how do you know that what you call “the “ecstatic” thoughts I had about God were really the creation of my own imagination”? Do you ever have ecstatic thoughts about anything? Are they ever real or legitimate? What if one day you conclude that the ecstatic thoughts you have about your wife are imaginary and choose to divorce her? What’s to stop you?

As for Darwin’s despondency, perhaps that colored his research and ideas? How do you know that his despondency is less imaginary than your ecstasy?

I believe that God speaks to us through our emotions as well as our intellects. Can you prove He does not?

Have you seen these:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/02/over_500_scientists_proclaim_t001981.html
http://gazette.com/article/47918
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123724852205449221.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/04/did_an_antiid_wikipedia_editor003539.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/04/pseudodarwinism_dr_cartwrights003489.html

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v15i5e.htm
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/vol12-8.pdf
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v12i8f.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7iWDlYJRu2sAnuNXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGFvA2FvBGNzcmNwdmlkA0tpUUVZa2dldXJCMUd6M2xVUm5jeWdUb1IuMVFSVkdDbFk0QUEwWnQEZnIDeWZwLXQtNzAxBGZyMgNzYnRuBG5fZ3BzAzYEb3JpZ2luA3NycARwcXN0cgNpc29jaHJvbnMEcXVlcnkDaXNvY2hyb25zBHNhbwMzBHZ0ZXN0aWQDQUNCWTAx?p=isochrons&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&vf=all&vs=www.scienceagainstevolution.org&pqstr=isochrons

That’s quite a thesis you have there. I totally agree with your criticism of creationism and the Genesis mythology. But I think it is quite absurd to put the science of evolution in the same class as creationism. Creationism is a farce. Evolution is real science. Have you ever read any books explaining evolution written by an evolutionary scientist? If so, which ones? If not, then it is foolish for you to come to any conclusion like “both evolution and creationism are myths.”

Your assertion that the creationist have valid points is not true in my estimation. And worse, your criticism of Darwin as a failed and bitter theology student is both irrelevant and absurd as you would know if you actually studied the science.

I think a much more plausible explanation is that there is no theistic style god of any kind. We are on our own. That explains things very well in my estimation.

All the best

Richard

PS: You’ve got a lot of interesting ideas. If you want to explore them more, it would be good to register on my forum where we could start a thread devoted to your ideas.

It’s good to hear from you. Your question “How do you separate legend and lore from life?” really hits the nail on the head. Even if there were a historical Jesus we know that many unhistorical myths like the Virgin birth and walking on water, were attributed to him. And since there is no way to separate the legend from the historical Jesus I don’t concern myself about that issue. I can’t know the truth, so what does it matter? The point seems to be moot.

Now you asked:

I’d like to clarify something. When you oppose doctrines like eternal hell, do you believe Jesus taught these things and therefore you oppose Him? Or do you think they were introduced by the institutional church?

I don’t know if Christ taught “eternal hell” or not since that is a matter of interpretation.

In general, Christ gives a much better picture of God, but ultimately that’s irrelevant because he endorsed everything written in the OT including genocide and the kidnapping of the 32,000 virgins. Christ cannot be separated from these abominations any more than his Father Yahweh. Therefore, I cannot accept that the image of Christ in the NT is any more true than the image of Yahweh in the OT.

And how could there be such a transformation in my understanding? It was forced on me by honesty and integrity. I came to understand that most of the “ecstatic” thoughts I had about God were really the creation of my own imagination. I was reading my thoughts into the words of the Bible – vivifying them. If you are interested, here is an excellent YouTube series that explains the psychology of a believer and the process of deconversion.