Answers for Amber on Why I Quit Christianity

Amber asked these questions in the comment stream under my post Explaining Myself where I had answered some questions relating to my Why I Quit Christianity.

Hi Mr. Richard,

First I just want to say thank you so much for the great work of the bible wheel and site, I’m hoping I’ll be able to buy the book soon.

So I’ve been reading up on some of the posts about why you “quit Christianity” and I guess I had a couple of questions to start.

Do you believe God is real? a Supreme Being that had the intelligence and power to create the natural universe as we know it right now?

I guess I’m confused because you seem to use the scriptures a lot, so are you still reading the bible, for you to know God better?

And do you still believe that Jesus is the bridge to help us have a right relationship with God?

Also do you and Ms. Rose have any children?

My soon to be un-husband has a lot of questions just like yours about the bible and “religion” in general and just like you he has yet to find the answers he needs for his heart, and I’m sorry you had that HORRIBLE experience with the “apoligetics” movement, until you listed it on your website I didn’t even know who the man was. I do pray that my Abba will answer your very heartfelt questions! Cause I probabley won’t be able to (grin).

Amber

Hi Amber,

I appreciate your thoughtful questions.

Q: Do you believe God is real? a Supreme Being that had the intelligence and power to create the natural universe as we know it right now?

A: I do not believe in a “Supreme Being” in the sense of traditional Christian theism for a variety of reasons. It is literally impossible for me to believe it because the concept does not appear to be logically coherent. You can’t have an eternal unchanging agent who exists outside of time and yet acts within time. If God acts, then God changes from a state of not-having-acted to a state of having-acted. That implies change which is denied by traditional theism. Therefore, it is literally impossible for that kind of God to be an explanation for the creation space and time. We have a similar problem with omniscience. An omniscient being never had a chance to make any choices which means that God is more like a brute fact or law of nature than a conscious living person who can choose or plan anything. What then determines what he does if he never made any choices? This entirely contradicts the traditional Christian concept of God. There  are too many philosophical problems generated by the concept of an “omniscient eternal unchanging God.” He wouldn’t be anything like a “person” who can choose or love or plan or do anything at all. I can believe in neither the “God of the philosophers” (which directly contradicts what the Bible says about God) nor the God of the Bible (because of the incoherent Biblical picture as well as the moral abominations attributed to him). So given this mass of philosophical confusion and unbelievable religious claims of the Bible, I find it quite impossible to believe in such any variety of the Christian God.

Now I don’t rule out the possibility that there is some sort of “Supreme Being” but I don’t see that concept as a necessary (or helpful) explanation of anything we see in the natural world. Sure, there are things we cannot yet explain, but positing God moves us no closer to any authentic understanding as far as I can tell.

I quote Scriptures when discussing what the Bible says with Christians. It doesn’t mean I believe or disbelieve that they are true. I would do the same thing when discussing the Quran or the Book of Mormon or Shakespeare.

Q: And do you still believe that Jesus is the bridge to help us have a right relationship with God?

A: No. If I believed that I would be a Christian. I don’t have any firm position on who Jesus was right now. It is impossible to discern much if anything about the “historical Jesus” because he has been buried under so many layers of myth.

Q: Also do you and Ms. Rose have any children? 

A: Yes, we have three sons and many cats.

Q: My soon to be un-husband has a lot of questions just like yours about the bible and “religion” in general and just like you he has yet to find the answers he needs for his heart …

A: Actually, I wouldn’t say I haven’t found any answers. I think my rejection of Christianity is a valid answer to the problems I have found with that religion. The only mystery that remains involves the seemingly “supernatural” patterns in the Bible such as the Bible Wheel and the Biblical Holographs.  I have no explanation for how they got there or what they mean. But that’s just another mystery, and there are plenty of mysteries in this world. Perhaps the evidence is not as strong as I thought and it could be explained by cognitive biases. That’s what opponents of my work have always said. But they never were able to support their case and I’m pretty good at noting cognitive biases in others (see my article on The Art of Rationalization) and I’ve applied the same standards  to myself so this explanation simply does work as far as I can tell.

Q: and I’m sorry you had that HORRIBLE experience with the “apoligetics” movement

A: The problem was not with “my experience” but rather with the reality of how Christianity tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers.

Q: I do pray that my Abba will answer your very heartfelt questions! Cause I probabley won’t be able to (grin).

A: Thank you for your kind thoughts, but there is no reason to think that there are any “answers” to the problems I have exposed. If there were they would have been discovered long ago and the apologists would not have had to corrupt themselves with sophistry and deception in their effort to prove the “truth” of their religion. What could be more ironic?

So here’s a question for you Amber – Which variety of Christianity do you believe in, and why?

Great chatting!

Richard

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33 Comments

  1. Mystykal
    Posted May 19, 2013 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Hi Richard:

    Great little self interview there! Well articulated my friend! I would like to try and aswer your question you posed to Amber. “Which variety of Christianity do you believe in, and why?”

    The question itself is somewhat self-defeating. First of all to assume that there are different “kinds” or “varieties” of Christians is illogical. Kind of like assuming that dogma or philosophy is what makes up the different colors of the rainbow!

    So, if we narrow the definition of what a Christian is then we have taken a step in the right direction when identifing the term Christian.

    Jesus according to the gospels said, “Not everyone who says Lord Lord, will enter into my kingdom – but only him who does the will of my Father!” And in another place it it said that Jesus said, “Many will say in that day ‘Lord! Lord! Didn’t we do these things in your name and in your name cast our deamons and performed mighty works?’ And I will turn to them and say, ‘Depart from me! You who do wickedly! I do not know you!”

    Jesus said, “The words that I speak unto you – They are Spirit and they are life.”

    So from these few verses we see that the term “Christian” could include people who do not officially recognize “Christianity” as the only Truth. So that a “true Christian” are only those who do and live the words of truth and life. A true “Christian” is like the “Good Samaritan” of the Christ parable! Not a “Jew” or a died in the wool, pew jumping speaking in tongues, Bible thumping “Christian”!

    The idea that there is an ‘Absolute Truth” in life is the foundation on which all Scriptures are built. Jesus said, “When the Spirit of truth is come, it (he) will guide you into ALL truth.”

    So on the day of Pentecost the Spirit was sent in its fullness. And the Spirit has been here ever since! The problem is that people have not allowed the Spirit to merge with their mind and illuminate their thinking. So we end up with the fake do gooders and wanna be’s running the churches and calling whatever brand of current belief “the truth”.

    So what variety of Christianity do I believe in? The truth as it is IN Jesus the Supreme Word of Life known only by the enlightenment of the Spirit!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  2. Posted May 20, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Mystykal,

    Thanks for your interesting comments. Your position does not seem too far removed from what I believed when I was a Christian. If one begins with the assumption that the Jesus is the Truth, then the demand that people have explicit knowledge of him is an upside down perspective. The important point would be that he really is “God incarnate” whether or not anyone recognized him as such. And since he would be the Savior, anyone who was to be saved would be saved through him whether they explicitly knew him by name or not.

    But not we have a new problem. It sounds like you are saying that “true Christianity” is nothing more than “being a good person.” What then is the Gospel? Can you tell me that? Who doesn’t get “saved” and why?

    Great chatting

    Richard

  3. Mystykal
    Posted May 21, 2013 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Hi Richard:

    You said: The important point would be that he really is “God incarnate” whether or not anyone recognized him as such. And since he would be the Savior, anyone who was to be saved would be saved through him whether they explicitly knew him by name or not.

    But not we have a new problem. It sounds like you are saying that “true Christianity” is nothing more than “being a good person.” What then is the Gospel? Can you tell me that? Who doesn’t get “saved” and why?
    ——————————
    First of all I never said that being “good” would get you “saved”. Knowing the truth and showing real faith saving actions will get you saved! Let me explain….

    “Two will be grinding at the mill one will be taken and the other left.” – These verses have nothing to do with the return of Christ or the “Secret rapture” as most “Christians belief”. This yin/yang passage is showing that the actions although the same (even sleeping) have very different outcomes as one person is saved and one is lost. And the saved one is the “left behind” one! If GOD takes you you ae dead dead! but let me regress…
    The activites of the persons in question are the same! So that shows that the actions are not the deciding factor as to if you are “saved” or not. The Bible in the OT is clear as in the NT that “everything that is not of faith is sin.” “And sin IS the transgression of the law.” So that faith is the qualifier which is specific to the person and to the time. In Noah’s day the faith issue was not building the ark ut getting ON the ark. Everyone could have….only eight did.

    In the the day of Jesus faith – saving faith was to accept Jesus as GOD Himself…. Not a single person did! But after His ressurection many believed on Him, and were “saved”. These stories tell us a very basic truth about faith. Faith is not exclusive to acertain people place or time. The Roman Centurion exhibited “more faith than all in Israel” according to Jesus. So that everyone is saved by faith in the truth as it is in Jesus the Word… aka GOD the Father’s Word – which jesus said, I do nothing except the Father tells me to do it!” I and my Father are one and the same”. This idea of GOD being different than Jesus has created all kinds of problems for theologians. The incarnation mystery is one which will never be explained. The Spirit is able to morph anything! Even GOD!

    So the Gospel is not a new commandment but the old commandment which you have heard from the beginning… The Lord is one. The law of the Lord is forever settled in heaven. It is faith in the absolute Word of truth.that “saves”. “Thy Word is a light unto my path…” The words are spirit and they are life.”

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  4. Gina Kjar
    Posted June 7, 2013 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Hi Richard,

    I want to thank you for your honesty. I want to thank you for your questioning mind. I have always been astonished by believers who were afraid to read something that might make them let go of what they currently hold to. Truth is truth. If you are searching for truth and you are searching for God…..keep searching!!! I liken your pilgrimage to that of Tom Hanks on the movie Castaway. You are off of the Island and past the barrier reef and out in the wide blue open waters. Who knows where you will go from here. But don’t stop your pursuit of truth!! And don’t stop letting us know what you learn because I , for one, want to know where you end up.
    Food for thought. Have you ever entertained the idea of infinite alternate universes? That’s a huge question and it is wide open I know. I have just begun to think about it and I don’t know where I’m going to land yet. Just wondering if you had gone there in your beautiful mind. May your journey end with Eureka!
    Gina Kjar

  5. Fred Koehler
    Posted June 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Richard, how can you say that you left the faith if you haven’t first come to faith? (John 3:1-15)

  6. Posted June 8, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Fred,

    You asked “how can you say that you left the faith if you haven’t first come to faith? (John 3:1-15)”

    I get the impression you are saying that no true Christian could ever leave that faith. That’s a meaningless concept because there is no way for anyone to know if their faith is real. And it’s rather like the No True Scotsman fallacy.

  7. Fred Koehler
    Posted June 8, 2013 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Maybe I should have presented it rather as a possibility in your own experience, in light of what Jesus said about believing in him and being born again or from above.

  8. Posted June 8, 2013 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Maybe I should have presented it rather as a possibility in your own experience, in light of what Jesus said about believing in him and being born again or from above.

    I do not believe that the doctrine “about believing in him and being born again or from above” is true so your question makes no sense.

  9. Posted June 19, 2013 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    First, to all Christians who read this: PRAY FOR MR. McGOUGH and his family! (I say we gang up on him) 🙂

    Okay, now my rant.

    I’m honestly not sure why I’m even bothering. I guess my suspicions have been confirmed and I have to say, I’m a little heartbroken. I’m not going to bother with logical arguments because that’s what got you into this mess in the first place. You need to drop logic and ‘smart-ness’ and go direct with your heart rent open.

    The moment I came across your Bible-wheel – I immediately thought to myself, this is sort of similar to Kaballah in that it makes a geometric shape in respect to faith in God then wraps it in a bunch of logic. But I didn’t want to judge it, I really wanted to get my head around the thing as a possible study tool. I mean, it really does look cool.

    Your fall from grace has saved me hours of investigating your wheel to confirm it is what it says it is or to expose it as more mystical-math garbage. Have you heard of Freemasonry? They’re into that stuff too. It’s a shame that not only are you lost, but that so many people have been misled by your Bible-wheel. I think that you, yourself were misled by your own invention. When the invention you created couldn’t stand up, you abandoned God because your ego just wouldn’t allow you to be wrong. No, everything else was wrong, not you.

    How much money have you sucked out of gullible Christians who love God so much that they put money into what they thought was a valuable tool. How many wasted hours will they spend with your stupid wheel before they realize it does nothing, that there is no replacement for God’s Word?

    Who are you to push people (Christians, Jews, Muslims etc.) away from their faith? If you want to piss yours down the toilet, that’s a heart-breaker, but there’s no convincing you or anyone else who is without a genuine desire to love God back.

    Inwardly, get off your high-horse (#4) and stop doing what the devil did in the Garden of Eden. Let’s review:

    1. Cast doubt on God’s Word – “Did God really say…?”
    2. Lie – “You won’t surely die…”
    3. Offer Knowledge – “For you will know good and evil…”
    4. Self-ascension/godhood – “and be like God.”

    In your own way, you’ve done all four! Wake up! We love you. The door’s about to close. Remember, Peter was invited back and luckily he made the right choice, you can do the same. Repent. Take down the site.

    God Bless.

  10. Posted June 22, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Norm,

    Thanks for your comments. You exemplify the problem with religion. I answered you in my latest post here:

    The Problem with Religion: It aggravates pre-existing intellectual and moral failings.

    Cheers!

    Richard

  11. Fred Koehler
    Posted June 23, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you answered: “I do not believe that…’believing in him and being born again…’ is true”, so how can you say that you were a Christian?

  12. Posted June 23, 2013 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you answered: “I do not believe that…’believing in him and being born again…’ is true”, so how can you say that you were a Christian?

    I believed that when I was a Christian because I was a Christian. If I still believed it I would still be a Christian. I don’t believe it now because I am no longer a Christian.

  13. Fred Koehler
    Posted June 24, 2013 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    Richard,either you didn’t ever believe with the childlike faith and trust that Jesus talked about or you did believe and experienced the new birth and now you’re denying what in your heart you know is true.

  14. Posted June 24, 2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Richard,either you didn’t ever believe with the childlike faith and trust that Jesus talked about or you did believe and experienced the new birth and now you’re denying what in your heart you know is true.

    Those are not the only possibilities Fred. A person could sincerely believe the Bible is true and then later come to believe it is not true. That’s what happened with me. How is it possible that you don’t understand this?

  15. james greer
    Posted July 10, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    i’m glad you listened to the spirit of God and wrote about the WD whether you believe or not for it has helped me in certain scriptural textes. it doesn’t matter whether you believe or not as long as God got his point across. you are a vessel for his use. only those who believe anyway believe in God and Jesus Christ being the bridge to him and that is why the bible says narrow is the way to eternal life and wide is the way to destruction and few that find it. you cant rationalize God and like science itself that’s why you cannot believe in God. in death every believer and non-believer will get the chance to see the truth. me personally, i’d rather live according to God’s word and if nothing happens then i lived a holy life and got nothing out of it than a holy life than guess and be wrong. true christians are not the north american version of what we call christians but we have a true relationship with God and not a false sense of man-made obligation to serve. we do so because we love to. not understanding everything about God is frustrating at times but i can’t even understand infnite so trying to understand the bigger points of a God who sits outside of time but can change things in time is foolish. there are three words that define God. all knowing, all powerful and all seeing. omni-present, omniscient and omnipotent. if he was limited he wouldn’t be God but a man. you may not believe in God but if he inspires you again to write any thing please write it for those who do believe for he can use anybody and anything to get his message across. he uses the unrighteous to bless the righteous.

  16. Gina Kjar
    Posted July 11, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Hi Mr. McGough.
    You never answered on the infinite alternate universe question. In light of the other comments, maybe God is taking you somewhere with his hand over your eyes, and you just cannot see it yet. Or, maybe this is a Nebuchadnezzar (sp?) time span in your life. Just thinking.

    Truth will prevail as long as that is what you are seeking.
    Eureka!
    Gina Kjar

  17. Gina Kjar
    Posted July 11, 2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    I hope that doesn’t come across as condescending, certainly not how I meant it. I have been and will surely continue to go through times in my life when there is no explanation for why I am where I am, and why I am going through what I am going through.

  18. Posted July 14, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    I want to thank you for your honesty. I want to thank you for your questioning mind. I have always been astonished by believers who were afraid to read something that might make them let go of what they currently hold to. Truth is truth. If you are searching for truth and you are searching for God…..keep searching!!! I liken your pilgrimage to that of Tom Hanks on the movie Castaway. You are off of the Island and past the barrier reef and out in the wide blue open waters. Who knows where you will go from here. But don’t stop your pursuit of truth!! And don’t stop letting us know what you learn because I , for one, want to know where you end up.

    Food for thought. Have you ever entertained the idea of infinite alternate universes? That’s a huge question and it is wide open I know. I have just begun to think about it and I don’t know where I’m going to land yet. Just wondering if you had gone there in your beautiful mind. May your journey end with Eureka!
    Gina Kjar

    Hey there Gina,

    Sorry for the slow response. The transition into my new job is keeping me busier than usual.

    I’m glad you appreciate honesty. The sad fact is that dogmatic religion tends to destroy the love of truth because it teaches that people must believe things they can’t even know in order to be saved. Such religion tends to corrupt both the minds and morals of believers, even as it implants the hypnotic suggestion that their unsupported dogmas are the “truth.” Nothing could be more ironic … or pathetic.

    I agree, of course, that “truth is truth.” And if there is a God, then God would be the “Truth” but it doesn’t go the other way. The truth may be that there is no God at all. And even if there is a God, it is impossible that it could be the God of Christian theism.

    As for an infinity of universes – I’ve got no problem with that idea. It fits well with what may be the simplest hypothesis, that all possibilities are realized. But I don’t have any knowledge of such things, and speculative answers don’t move me, so I am happy to let such questions ride. There was a time when I was on a “search for truth” but I wouldn’t describe myself that way anymore. There is a big world of “reality” (truth) that we all share. We don’t have to “search” for it – it’s right here in front of us. Of course, we do have to search for the right words to describe it, and I very much enjoy that activity. And we need to search out understanding of why it is the way it is. That’s science. And it is important that we do everything possible to expand our consciousness using tools like microscopes, telescopes, computers, and mind-enhancing activities like meditation and entheogenic substances.

    As far as I can tell, the existing dogmatic religions have very little if anything to offer in our quest for “truth.” Historically, they have been more of a hindrance than a help in that regard. It’s not that they had no purpose – they were very helpful to hold societies together and to give psychological help to ignorant, weak, and fearful people who could not care for themselves. But we are not children any more. We have grown and now know the truth that there is no God who will feed and care for us if we pray.

    Great chatting,

    Richard

  19. Posted July 14, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Hi Richard:
    You said in the above response, ” We have grown and now know the truth that there is no God who will feed and care for us if we pray.”
    Is that a scientific fact? Or is that your personal experience? I would suggest to you that the meditative process DOES work! You merely have not practiced it in a meaningful way which got YOU any results. You are sadly ignorant of the true experiences which do exist through prayer and the meditative process. Perhaps the universe holds some secrets which you have not experienced,

    Namaste,
    Mystykal

  20. Rose
    Posted July 16, 2013 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Hi Mystykal,

    The scientific fact is that god has not been proven anymore than pink unicorns have been proven, so until they are there is no reason to believe in them. I’m sure the universe holds many mysteries and secrets that have yet to be discovered, but the Biblegod is not one of them. There is nothing mysterious or secretive about the origins of the Biblegod, he was made up in the minds of primitive men who needed to posit a god to explain things they didn’t understand.

  21. Posted July 18, 2013 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    I enjoyed our phone conversation a year or so ago. I have learned some things since that conversation that will be incorporated in my new book, which I was working on when we spoke.

    I wanted to take up your argument that an unchanging God cannot interact with man. When we see paradox or contradiction, we are thinking that either it is this way or that way. When a paradox or contradiction exists, there is a higher axiom to see. In this case, quantum mechanics provides that answer.

    God the Father (Aleph Bet) uses the Strong House as a way to show that letters are the starting point for creation building the house. Our alphabet is the clue to this. Christ is the Word (Bet Nun), or house of the seed. What is Mother? Aleph Mem (Strong Waters). To see why this is so important, you need to see the true meaning of baptism. We are immersed into the waters as a catalyst for the Word to come to from from the letters. Of course, this is the mechanism of the Trinity allowing new life to form from nothing to something. Since God is infinite and Eternal as you say, we can easily see that we are not. Why the Son? From the beginning, the only way to realize new life is to allow it to be asymmetric and a variable of the first life. Here is how I prove this to you and change your entire outlook on what we are by comparison to an invariable symmetry like God. The five Platonic shapes in nature are our clue for how this works. Can you rotate a Platonic shape? Does the perspective on that shape change? No. It’s always the same, yet you can view it from all sides and it can move.

    Here is another example by the Hermeneutics of rightly divided truth. As above, so below is a term you are familiar with. The lesser case compares to the greater. God is the greater case of why we have free will and how. The lesser case is quantum mechanics. Hydrogen has one proton one electron. This is the starting gate for Hydrogenesis. If God were to allow division of the balance between opposites, he would need to ensure that what is created cannot exceed unity to chaos. It should only be able to occupy a fallen state so that the nature of above and below can be seen clearly. How did an invariably symmetric God allow for this division?

    Genesis 1 is a paradise. It is invariable symmetric and the Garden that we were removed from. Elohim created this paradise. Genesis 2 is the LORD creating the material image of the first. What is the difference? The electron is free and breaks symmetry.

    The strong nuclear force is Proton and Neutron (Father and Son as one). Protons have two up quarks and one down. Neutrons have two down and one up. The strong nuclear forces in nature follows symmetry perfectly when spin in considered by ratio. Electrons do not follow this symmetry and you cannot box in an electron. It will always free itself. It borrows from the future to repay the past if you know your quantum mechanics. This borrowing must be repaid. If you know how it is repaid, you know how the strong nuclear force always brings us back to symmetry. This is why God allows the error, but only by the fact that what is borrowed will return.

    Now, consider the DNA of the letters being used to program the reality we occupy. Nature is the balancing point of law and the invariable cycle that we adapt to. As we rise, we see the nature of the one unchanging nature. Baptism is our immersion (involution) into the waters of the mother (Aleph Mem) and the Son (Bet Nun) is the carrier of the seed that allows us to know why sacrifice is so important. The only way to allow the invariable is for God to become asymmetric as the strong force pulling back the new creations. We know this as involution and evolution. Noting new can be created unless it is first fallen into the harmonies from above.

    Let me prove this to you from Greek and Latin

    AMN is the root of Lamb. All words flowing on this branch of morphology modify the Lamb. The sacrifice of the son is the lamb. We are the sheep of the shepherd, but we are also lambs before we rise to new life.

    Amni is River of life
    Amnio is the bowl catching the blood of the lamb
    Amnion is the sac covering the womb
    Amniotic fluid is the water of the lamb
    Amnesia is the fact we cannot remember our invariable symmetric creation we God created us first.
    Amnesty is the release we get when the thief stealing from the future is forgiven.

    Put this together. The Shepherd pulls the wool over our eyes for a time (Amnesia). We are shorn season after season. You must be born again and there is no death. The wool is washed white as snow by the one who pays the price. The wool is then returned as a new robe and crown. Who’s robe do you wear if you are saved from the asymmetric variable? Christ’s and not yours. This is how God allows you to be a unique creation, yet he never changes.

    Do you believe again?

  22. Posted July 22, 2013 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Mr. McGough,
    I’ve visited your original Bible Wheel off and on exploring the intricacies and most recently that past few nights studying certain gematria that seemed to resonate with Biblical knowledge I’ve learned since I was young.

    Now I was surprised tonight to discover you have left the faith, but then I recognize that I have rejected certain teachings that I was “indoctrinated” on since a child. Although I am a Christian, I reject most all of the establishment, but then in Revelations, God reprimands/rejects 5 of the 7 Churches. He also accuses the “shepherds” of being dumb dogs and greedy. Anyways, if I were to share some of my beliefs with other Christians about what I believe really happened in the Garden of Eden or my disbelief in the “rapture” that I was taught since a child, I would most probably be branded a heretic or a kook, but then many of the main characters in the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament were often laughed to scorn.

    I have come to realize that many people are turned off by God because of the horrible examples many Christians have demonstrated. It is man, especially in the name of religion, Christianity and others, that is guilty of this perversion, and the Bible even addresses those that speak in His name and He says THEY DID NOT, and rightly so. He also gives a list of those who come to enter Heaven and describes why they don’t enter and others do. I’m not suggesting this is why you have left Christianity but I should get to the question I would like to ask you.

    You mentioned that you do believe there seems to be “supernatural” patterns in the Bible. I’ve been studying my Hebrew/Greek concordance for many years and I have felt just in those humble manual labors there were patterns and truths. Exploring the Bible Wheel has only built and expounded on that. I pose the question for my own self questioning as well. If the Bible contains supernatural patterns such as the Bible Wheel, why would the supernatural pattern be applied to a negative or untruth? I know you say that is the mystery and I guess that is the answer to my question. But other questions come to mind, not per say to you but overall, such as, why is the world present day consumed with the whole conflict in the Middle East? Why are millions experiencing number phenomenon with the 11:11 that I’m trying to reconcile as a Christian? Why do I want to be left behind when the “rapture” is purported to take place? Why did it take me until i was 30 to find out Jesus name was Yeshua when I went to church since I can remember? Why do Christians insist Eve ate an apple? These are questions for myself and not to you, but I would like to say that regardless, the work you produced on the Bible Wheel is phenomenal in and of itself and speaks to one searching for answers or not, but I certainly have and hopefully will continue to benefit from exploring the exceedingly comprehensive work you created. The flip side is I’m completely disillusioned and seeing what I want to see when exploring it. In any event, constructively provocative nonetheless. Thank you again for the great site and for entertaining my comments.

    Sincerely

  23. Posted August 31, 2013 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Shalom,

    I would love to call you brother but by your denial of the obvious truth, exhibited by your supernatural and nearly exhaustive search pertaining to your research on the Bible Wheel and per your own confession (which is written in the Book of LIfe), I guess I will have to settle for friend and not brother for now. But It’s cool because I believe you will return yo tour first love Yeshua Moshiach/Jesus the Messiah because no one could produce what you produced except God were with him, like Mel Gibson and The Passion of the Christ.

    I’ll keep my comments brief because what can I say that you haven’t heard? But I will say this. You put too much “FAITH” in science. Scripture says “Love never fails, But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is KNOWLEDGE, it will vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away with. For now we see in a mirror, DIMLY, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know just as I also am known.” And now (In this earth-time realm) there abides faith, hope, love, these three: but the greatest of these is love,” I Cor 13:8-10, 12-13.

    Obviously “love” is not an issue with you. I would never presume to doubt your “love” for “Our Father who is in heaven”. Neither would I dare to doubt your “hope” because hope operates on the sub-conscious level of the imagination and no one could have accomplished what you have without imagination rooted in both love and hope so let’s focus on the last realm and that is where the healing and reconciliation is needed and that is in the “faith” realm.

    You are simply a lost sheep who has lost his way. The Great Shepherd is always seeking to save and restore that sheep, even if he has to do it on the Sabbath. The Father is waiting to run to his Prodigal Son (not ex-Son) but you have to head home on your own and he can’t help with that (Whosoever will must come freely), else he would breach his own nature in the area of free will).

    And to all of you conciliatory haters I would say “Don’t shoot the wounded…one day you might be one”.

    Lastly, it’s obvious you need a friend and some counseling and I would like to suggest someone I believe would be truly kindred…trained in the sciences, physics (both quantum and astro), biochemistry, engineering, CEO multiple times over and years of study in the scripture by both Jew and Gentile.

    Personally, I came to Yeshua in 1977 so I have had opportunities to study with and be exposed to some the greatest scholars of the last 40 years and I believe this individual to be the most profound bible expositor I have ever been exposed to and his name is CHUCK MISSLER of Koinonia House. I believe in him you will find a loving, non-judgmental person, not a clone.

    YouTube or Google him but please contact him personally. You need a group hug!

    Shabbat Shalom,

    Your Friend Clarence E. Archer

    P.S. Remember, “The Word of God is FOREVER SETTLED in Heaven.” Free your mind.
    Keep in Touch. I have FAITH in you “Brother”

  24. Posted August 31, 2013 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Dear Sir,

    I am attempting to order ‘The Bible Wheel”. How would I go about receiving a signed copy?

  25. Posted September 2, 2013 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    I would love to call you brother but by your denial of the obvious truth, exhibited by your supernatural and nearly exhaustive search pertaining to your research on the Bible Wheel and per your own confession (which is written in the Book of LIfe), I guess I will have to settle for friend and not brother for now. But It’s cool because I believe you will return yo tour first love Yeshua Moshiach/Jesus the Messiah because no one could produce what you produced except God were with him, like Mel Gibson and The Passion of the Christ.

    Hi Clarence,

    Thanks for the kind words. I would be delighted to be your friend. And in as much as you desire to know the truth, I can be your brother in that regard. I have done nothing to violate my integrity. On the contrary, I was acting according to my integrity when I spoke the truth about what I see in the Bible and why I can no longer believe it is the “Word of God”. If I did not speak the truth as I see it, I would be guilty. There is no honor in professing something you don’t really believe.

    I’ll keep my comments brief because what can I say that you haven’t heard? But I will say this. You put too much “FAITH” in science. Scripture says “Love never fails, But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is KNOWLEDGE, it will vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away with. For now we see in a mirror, DIMLY, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know just as I also am known.” And now (In this earth-time realm) there abides faith, hope, love, these three: but the greatest of these is love,” I Cor 13:8-10, 12-13.

    I think you are parroting a common Christian confusion. I have no “FAITH” in science of the kind that Christians put in God. Please think about this. Why do you need “FAITH”? Because there is no evidence of any kind that God actually exists. This is the opposite of science. I have confidence in science because I can see and test the truth myself, and the truth is proven every day, 24/7! If “science” makes a claim I can test it. If it fails, I reject it. If it is confirmed then I have good reason to have confidence because I confirmed it myself. Look around you. Why are planes able to fly? Why do cars work? Why are you able to share you faith here on the internet? All because of Science, which is nothing but knowledge about how the world really works. It has nothing to do with the kind of “FAITH” Christians put in God. On the contrary, it is the opposite.

    And this brings up the great irony. Science can be TRUSTED because it has been tested day after day for centuries. We all know it works and we rely on it without question. Now think of God. Is there one thing that you could actually TRUST God to do for anyone in any situation? Nope. Not one thing. Folks who actually “trust God” to do anything for them end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist, there would be no debate about his existence.

    You are simply a lost sheep who has lost his way. The Great Shepherd is always seeking to save and restore that sheep, even if he has to do it on the Sabbath. The Father is waiting to run to his Prodigal Son (not ex-Son) but you have to head home on your own and he can’t help with that (Whosoever will must come freely), else he would breach his own nature in the area of free will).

    I appreciate the faith, hope, and love you exhibit in that comment. It is odd how such is missing from so many of the comments posted by devout “Christians” here.

    The story of the Prodigal Son and the image of the Father’s unconditional love is of course a wonderful image of God. Unfortunately, it is at odds with the image presented elsewhere in the Bible that suggests God is going to cast people into everlasting torment for the “sin” of not agreeing with things written in the Bible.

    As for Chuck Missler, I’ve known about him for two decades. I was really excited when I first encountered his work because he is famous for saying that the Bible is “an integrated message system from outside our time domain”. And he wrote a book called “Cosmic Codes” so I thought if anyone could understand my work, it would be him. But no. He was totally blind to it. But that didn’t deter me. I enjoyed listening to him for a long time. But as time went on, I noticed that he was preaching exclusively to the “premillenial rapture” crowd which I believe is entirely unbiblical. So I can’t really say that I have much respect for his teaching overall. I’ve heard many hours of his lectures. I can’t imagine him offering any answers to my reasons for quitting Christianity that I haven’t already heard and refuted. But thanks for the suggestion.

    Just so you know, one of my hobbies is to listen to Christian apologetic podcasts, like the Bible Answer Man, Chuck Missler, John Ankerberg, etc. They have convinced me of one thing: Christian apologetics is an abyss of absurdity, and fundamentalism of the kind that says the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers. Nothing could be more ironic. The delusion is so deep that people think they have God’s own truth when in fact they are trampling the truth underfoot on a daily basis.

    Sorry if my words seem too sharp or heavy, but this is serious business. Truth is being trampled every day in the name of God, Christ, the Bible, and even in the name of “Truth” itself. It’s gotta end.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

  26. Posted September 3, 2013 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Hi Richard:
    Just had to say I agree 100% when you say “Just so you know, one of my hobbies is to listen to Christian apologetic podcasts, like the Bible Answer Man, Chuck Missler, John Ankerberg, etc. They have convinced me of one thing: Christian apologetics is an abyss of absurdity, and fundamentalism of the kind that says the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers. Nothing could be more ironic. The delusion is so deep that people think they have God’s own truth when in fact they are trampling the truth underfoot on a daily basis.

    Sorry if my words seem too sharp or heavy, but this is serious business. Truth is being trampled every day in the name of God, Christ, the Bible, and even in the name of “Truth” itself. It’s gotta end.”

    The funny thing is I don’t know why it matters if GOD does not in reality (according to you) exist. Why do you think it matters for people to live the truth if the truth gets you no where with any meaning outside of this little pathetic existence?

    Well I hope that the dialogue will continue as I really appreciate your thoughtful perspective on things.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  27. Fernando
    Posted January 31, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Let me give you some thoughts so that we don’t have to come to disbelief.
    Why we human are always having a hard time to understand when we hear teaching about the mystery that took place in the time of Old Testament and New Testament or the mystery that lies ahead which is written in the book of Revelation.
    When we heard these things, often times, we think that this is only a myth, and sometimes we even think that this is not even close to reality.
    Dear friend, how easily we forget that every second, every minute of our life is also a mystery that can be equally compared to the events written in the Holy Bible. How easily we forgot about the creation of Man? Isn’t it that we are made of different body parts consist of different organs and tissues within it, which also made of different kind of cells? But still, they form as one body and function synchronously so we could perform complex activity.
    Let’s look even deeper, let say for example the red blood cell; did you know that every time we breathe air into our lungs, the red blood cells will pass through our lungs to exchange all carbon dioxide that’s been collected from our entire body with oxygen, then it will transport the oxygen again all throughout your body to oxygenate every part, organs and tissues and the most amazing mystery in this event is, the 80% of oxygen that’s been carrying by the red blood cells will be distributed to the brain, then how can we explain that this tiny single cell without its own brain could function according to its purpose. Does this thing doesn’t sound mystery to you?
    Let’s talk another two tiny cells that known to us which create another mystery and these cells are the sperm cell from man and egg cell from woman; Isn’t it that when this two cells meet each other it will form another human life? How about the flowers that turns into fruit, the planets that maintain its orbit, the sun that keeps its flame for several thousands of years now, isn’t it that all this things were made under God’s power? These mysteries were happening around us all the time to remind us that there is nothing impossible to Him. Now how come that when we hear the teaching from the Holy Bible about His purpose and plan for us, we hardly believe?

  28. Posted February 1, 2014 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Hey there Fernando,

    You wrote:

    Let’s talk another two tiny cells that known to us which create another mystery and these cells are the sperm cell from man and egg cell from woman; Isn’t it that when this two cells meet each other it will form another human life? How about the flowers that turns into fruit, the planets that maintain its orbit, the sun that keeps its flame for several thousands of years now, isn’t it that all this things were made under God’s power? These mysteries were happening around us all the time to remind us that there is nothing impossible to Him. Now how come that when we hear the teaching from the Holy Bible about His purpose and plan for us, we hardly believe?

    My answer is no, I don’t see any evidence that life was created by the God of the Bible, or any God for that matter. It’s origin remains largely a mystery, but not so much its evolution of the last three billion years. We have an amazing amount of evidence that shows evolution is a natural phenomenon. Look at the thousands of species of spiders, ants, and beetles for example. Do you think that God specially created each species? Have you never heard of DNA that shows common descent? The evolutionary explanation is extremely powerful and convincing. It is what we would expect given the simple fact of genetic mutations coupled with natural selection. Just look at how quickly humans can create new forms of dogs and birds by selecting which are allowed to breed. Now imagine that an analogous process has been happening for billions of years. Evolution is inevitable. It’s as natural as a rock rolling down a hill.

    Richard

  29. Fernando
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Hi Richard,

    That is not impossible to God for He was able to give 6 Billion people in this world with no the same finger prints.

    Fernando

  30. Fred Koehler
    Posted May 30, 2014 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    Richard, the Pharisees in John 8 would also have believed the Law and yet didn’t know God. Do you think that might be why you believed the Bible was true but don’t anymore? Jesus also said that no one can come to Him unless the Father “draws them to me” (John 6:44-45).

  31. Posted June 13, 2014 at 2:53 am | Permalink

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